Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[Mugby]

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again. 810 training to start Feb 25. In to service end of summer 2025. Another forum has suggested the 810s have the same cracking issues and is being looked into. Not sure how accurate that is.

Does that mean 2024? If it does then surely the hand back will need to be postponed/renegotiated? EMR couldn't possibly continue to function if any number of 222s have to be handed back in December?

 

[Jozhua]

Doubt the 222s will lapse off lease before the 810s begin arriving. Plenty of fleet cascades have been delayed by the TOC handing over the fleet not getting their new trains when expected.

The biggest issue will be keeping the 222s running in the latter half of the century, guessing they'll need to start using bio-diesel.

Quite likely TMs will be trained up on the stock during driver training runs, as happened with the 360s. Ultimate you need enough of all grades to be competent before the stock can enter service.



I’m confident they’ll be in service by 2030!

New trains for EMR by 2050!

 

[a_c_skinner]

This thread highlights the madness in railways in UK. 70 years since nationalisation yet we build new stations with no passive provision to extend and built to be just big enough from the word go, dozens of different types of train, units going off lease before replacements are ready, apparently similar trains incompatible with each other and, what is worse, the railways seemingly powerless to change it and actually content that it is unavoidable. We can't even settle on a standard platform height.

 

[Trainman40083]

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again. 810 training to start Feb 25. In to service end of summer 2025. Another forum has suggested the 810s have the same cracking issues and is being looked into. Not sure how accurate that is.

I'd have thought Corby might miss the 360s if they went to Market Harborough instead. Of course some will be being taken out for refurb soon.

 

[duffield]

Doubt the 222s will lapse off lease before the 810s begin arriving. Plenty of fleet cascades have been delayed by the TOC handing over the fleet not getting their new trains when expected.

The biggest issue will be keeping the 222s running in the latter half of the century, guessing they'll need to start using bio-diesel.

New trains for EMR by 2050!

As the delays with the 810's appear to be Hitachi's responsibility, does this mean they will be contractually obliged to pay whatever it takes to get the 222 fleet lease extended? I expect the terms of this specific contract are confidential but maybe this is a standard clause?

 

[zwk500]

As the delays with the 810's appear to be Hitachi's responsibility, does this mean they will be contractually obliged to pay whatever it takes to get the 222 fleet lease extended? I expect the terms of this specific contract are confidential but maybe this is a standard clause?

I expect there will be a penalty clause for late delivery of some kind but it may not match the costs of extending the leases for the 222 (it might well exceed it of course, if it's linked to the 810 lease costs).

 

[QSK19]

I expect there will be a penalty clause for late delivery of some kind but it may not match the costs of extending the leases for the 222 (it might well exceed it of course, if it's linked to the 810 lease costs).

Rumours mentioned earlier in the thread is that 3 more 810s will be built as compensation. That would, I assume, be more effective compared to a financial penalty (and presumably earns Hitachi more maintenance revenue).

222s will get reformed back to 9 and 4 cars before they start to go off lease in Dec, requiring 360s to go to MH, and Sheffield services to stop at Kettering again. 810 training to start Feb 25. In to service end of summer 2025. Another forum has suggested the 810s have the same cracking issues and is being looked into. Not sure how accurate that is.

1) I assume that there could be a little amount of time built into the lease between them exiting service and being handed back to the leasing company. That would allow them to be reformed without impacting services.
2) Given that many 360 services are already 4-car instead of 8-car, presumably all Corby services would have to become 4-car in order to release stock to MH yet keeping Corby services running?
3) Others have said that there are still many, many hurdles to this, including training agreements not having been signed off and manufacturer delays.

 

[Mollman]

Forgive my ignorance and going off topic but how does 360s going to MH help with reforming the 222s? Is it because one Nottingham service will be dropped to cover for a lack of 222s until the 810s enter service?

 

[MCR247]

Forgive my ignorance and going off topic but how does 360s going to MH help with reforming the 222s? Is it because one Nottingham service will be dropped to cover for a lack of 222s until the 810s enter service?

Really you’d hope that a Sheffield being cut back to Derby would happen before a Nottingham is dropped completely but I guess I’m a bit biased

 

[Energy]

1) I assume that there could be a little amount of time built into the lease between them exiting service and being handed back to the leasing company. That would allow them to be reformed without impacting services.
2) Given that many 360 services are already 4-car instead of 8-car, presumably all Corby services would have to become 4-car in order to release stock to MH yet keeping Corby services running?
3) Others have said that there are still many, many hurdles to this, including training agreements not having been signed off and manufacturer delays.

The EMR National Rail Contract lists them as 23x5 car and 4x7 car and makes no mention of reforming them.

If they need to be reformed before being returned I'd imagine they will be reformed after sufficient 810s have entered service. I can't see why Eversholt would want them in 9 and 4-car form anyway, for prospective customers one of these lengths is too long and the other too short.

 

[jfowkes]

How does terminating the 360s at Market Harborough work operationally? I guess a northbound service empties out, continues north over the crossover and then reverses? Is there enough timetable spaces to do this without impacting other services?

 

[43066]

Forgive my ignorance and going off topic but how does 360s going to MH help with reforming the 222s? Is it because one Nottingham service will be dropped to cover for a lack of 222s until the 810s enter service?

No ignorance on your part in asking that. Simple answer; it doesn’t help, and it won’t be happening, because it was a nonsensical suggestion to begin with.

 

[Cowley]

With one thing and another we’ve drifted off the subject of the class 810 introduction here.
Let’s try and get back on course now though please.

Thanks all.

 

[800001]

With one thing and another we’ve drifted off the subject of the class 810 introduction here.
Let’s try and get back on course now though please.

Thanks all.

Observed on Facebook that 810009 was pictured outside at Hitachi’s Aycliffe factory
On Friday.

 

[QSK19]

Observed on Facebook that 810009 was pictured outside at Hitachi’s Aycliffe factory
On Friday.

As per this pic.

 

[liamf656]

Observed on Facebook that 810009 was pictured outside at Hitachi’s Aycliffe factory
On Friday.

Progress! How many complete units do we have now (excluding interior fittings)?

 

[800001]

Progress! How many complete units do we have now (excluding interior fittings)?

Part of unit 2 in Italy for climate testing.

Units 003, 004 and 005 have been seen at factory, and now 4/5th of 009.

 

[liamf656]

Part of unit 2 in Italy for climate testing.

Units 003, 004 and 005 have been seen at factory, and now 4/5th of 009.

That's great thank you

 

[jayah]

I expect there will be a penalty clause for late delivery of some kind but it may not match the costs of extending the leases for the 222 (it might well exceed it of course, if it's linked to the 810 lease costs).

There are no free lunches. You can write that stuff into a contract, but the suppliers will adjust their prices accordingly. They will probably be risk averse, while the TOC probably couldn't care less when they enter service and a game of 'whose fault is it' just turns into a feeding frenzy for lawyers. It isn't like the leasing company are falling over the offers for their mouldy Class 222s with new seat covers and threadbare bare carpets.

 

[QSK19]

June’s Modern Railways magazine reports EMR confirming that they are not getting extra 810s (page 86) - the order remains at 33 units.

So, this makes me think of two questions:
- Firstly, do we actually believe EMR? They’re hardly going to confirm such major news on the hoof or respond with a vague answer which would make rumours even more rife.
- Secondly, if not by way of extra units FOC, how would Hitachi be penalised for their responsibility towards the delayed 810 introduction? Presumably some form of penalty clause would have been inserted into the contract?

 

[Stephen42]

June’s Modern Railways magazine reports EMR confirming that they are not getting extra 810s (page 86) - the order remains at 33 units.

So, this makes me think of two questions:
- Firstly, do we actually believe EMR? They’re hardly going to confirm such major news on the hoof or respond with a vague answer which would make rumours even more rife.
- Secondly, if not by way of extra units FOC, how would Hitachi be penalised for their responsibility towards the delayed 810 introduction? Presumably some form of penalty clause would have been inserted into the contract?

EMR will only pay the leasing company when it accepts a train, so pays less if they are not delivered on time. Rock Rail (the leasing company) agreed in its contract before buying the trains a delivery schedule with penalties on the manufacturer if they don't deliver to that schedule as it will cost them money. The manufacturer has to accept that kind of clause as they are receiving payments before the goods are delivered so a mechanism is required to ensure they deliver on schedule.

With those relationships for extra trains all of the following need to happen: EMR needs to want the additional units & gain any necessary approvals for increased spend, Rock Rail needs to forfeit the late delivery income & possibly take out extra financing with reward of higher payments for larger fleet in the long term and Hitachi need to offer additional trains at a sufficiently low price in exchange for no penalties so that it's taken up.

That's quite a lot of agreements to be made/amended and what's in the existing contracts will work for most parties.

 

[QSK19]

EMR will only pay the leasing company when it accepts a train, so pays less if they are not delivered on time. Rock Rail (the leasing company) agreed in its contract before buying the trains a delivery schedule with penalties on the manufacturer if they don't deliver to that schedule as it will cost them money. The manufacturer has to accept that kind of clause as they are receiving payments before the goods are delivered so a mechanism is required to ensure they deliver on schedule.

With those relationships for extra trains all of the following need to happen: EMR needs to want the additional units & gain any necessary approvals for increased spend, Rock Rail needs to forfeit the late delivery income & possibly take out extra financing with reward of higher payments for larger fleet in the long term and Hitachi need to offer additional trains at a sufficiently low price in exchange for no penalties so that it's taken up.

That's quite a lot of agreements to be made/amended and what's in the existing contracts will work for most parties.

Very comprehensive and clear explanation - many thanks. We just have to be hopeful that the 33 units do suffice in terms of capacity!

 

[CTS1990]

This is not strictly construction-related, but do EMR intend to have seat selection on their website post-810 introduction? I assume they are being fitted with the 'traffic light' seat reservation systems like the IETs?

 

[yorkie]

This is not strictly construction-related, but do EMR intend to have seat selection on their website post-810 introduction?

Not really for this thread but very few TOCs implement seat selectors on their website; you are better off using our site, which has a seat selector for all TOCs (where applicable/available) and also helps support the forum

I assume they are being fitted with the 'traffic light' seat reservation systems like the IETs?

I would certainly assume so!

 

[WesternLancer]

This is not strictly construction-related, but do EMR intend to have seat selection on their website post-810 introduction? I assume they are being fitted with the 'traffic light' seat reservation systems like the IETs?

These short trains will probably be so overcrowded much of the time the indicators can just default to 'all seats taken'

 

[Trainbike46]

Class 222 (4 7-car trains, 23 5-car trains):
- 5-car: 192 standard 50 first class seats
- 7-car: 236 standard 106 first class seats
- 2x5-car: 384 standard 100 first class seats

Fleet total: 5,360 standard 1574 first class seats (total: 6,934)

Class 810 (33 5-car trains):
- 5-car: 254 standard 47 first class seats
- 2x5-car: 508 standard 94 first class seats

Fleet total: 8,382 standard 1,551 first class seats (total: 9,933)

Sounds like there will be a capacity uplift relative to the present day, the main question will be how good will they be at getting the 10-car sets on the services that need them

 

[WesternLancer]

Class 222 (4 7-car trains, 23 5-car trains):
- 5-car: 192 standard 50 first class seats
- 7-car: 236 standard 106 first class seats
- 2x5-car: 384 standard 100 first class seats

Fleet total: 5,360 standard 1574 first class seats (total: 6,934)

Class 810 (33 5-car trains):
- 5-car: 254 standard 47 first class seats
- 2x5-car: 508 standard 94 first class seats

Fleet total: 8,382 standard 1,551 first class seats (total: 9,933)

Sounds like there will be a capacity uplift relative to the present day, the main question will be how good will they be at getting the 10-car sets on the services that need them

My personal baseline for MML capacity was pre covid when the HST125 seats were also in the mix. But we have had this debate before in the thread of course.

 

[Trainbike46]

My personal baseline for MML capacity was pre covid when the HST125 seats were also in the mix. But we have had this debate before in the thread of course.

absolutely fair, but much harder to come up with accurate seat numbers available as the 222+HST fleet will be replaced by a mix of the 360s and the 810s, so hence the comparison with the present-day situation. Ideally they would get some more 810s, but despite the speculation around that subject upthread, there is no evidence of that happening either

 

[WesternLancer]

absolutely fair, but much harder to come up with accurate seat numbers as those units were partially replaced by 360s

Yes, that is a fair point indeed. Although it's interesting to me to note that the crowding seems to remain based on passenger numbers from the northern section of the route beyond the 360s operating area. But as you say accurate data would be needed overall. But loads of people complain about crowding (to me at least!) so anecdotally it's clearly a problem.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes, that is a fair point indeed. Although it's interesting to me to note that the crowding seems to remain based on passenger numbers from the northern section of the route beyond the 360s operating area. But as you say accurate data would be needed overall. But loads of people complain about crowding (to me at least!) so anecdotally it's clearly a problem.

undoubtedly! I'd hope 3,000 extra seats helps a little at least