Class 88 UKDual & EuroDual

[Far north 37]

May have been asked before, but whilst it was diesel only on this occasion, are the 88s able to have both modes providing power at once? Or is it once or the other?

id imagine there set up to take power from one or the other it would be a lot more complex on the techincal side to have both running at the same time surely im not sure where they would need to combine them they surely both run of different systems which they switch to as and when required combining them would just over complicate things i might be wrong though.

 

[TimboM]

id imagine there set up to take power from one or the other it would be a lot more complex on the techincal side to have both running at the same time surely im not sure where they would need to combine them they surely both run of different systems which they switch to as and when required combining them would just over complicate things i might be wrong though.

Yes, that's my thoughts - too complex and why would you need it anyway (or at least need it enough to overcome the complexity/cost).

But would be good if someone could confirm for definite.

 

[Far north 37]

Yes, that's my thoughts - too complex and why would you need it anyway (or at least need it enough to overcome the complexity/cost).

But would be good if someone could confirm for definite.

yeah be nice to have it confirmed impressive pulling power on diesel though in the video

 

[Sunbird24]

It is possible to use both modes at once if required but when about to move away from the wires the pantograph must be lowered. This ability gives it extra power if needed. Probably also a factor included in its permission to run over the mountains on its own provided the load does not exceed 1800 tons.
The new Euro dual, currently under test in Romania, has around 11,000 horses available when both modes are used at once. 10 have already been ordered for a German user HVLE.

 

[apk55]

At low speeds the locomotive power output is limited by tractive effort. (power output = tractive effort X speed) It is not until the train is doing at least 40mph would there be any benefit from starting the diesel.

 

[Sunbird24]

At low speeds the locomotive power output is limited by tractive effort. (power output = tractive effort X speed) It is not until the train is doing at least 40mph would there be any benefit from starting the diesel.

You are talking about power at the rail/wheel rim interface, which does not equate to prime mover power from whatever source. Prime mover power has to include not just power to traction motors but also power for on-board services and ancillary uses within the locomotive itself. The additional power from both modes together is used to improve acceleration and maintain higher speeds with heavy loads. I can ask later to see if diesel power is used on the class 88 on service trains while on electric power or only when changing oer to leave the wires. Changeover is done while moving.
FYI the starting tractive effort of the class 88 is the same in both diesel and electric mode even though the HP figures are 975 vs 5000+.

 

[furnessvale]

It is possible to use both modes at once if required but when about to move away from the wires the pantograph must be lowered. This ability gives it extra power if needed. Probably also a factor included in its permission to run over the mountains on its own provided the load does not exceed 1800 tons.
The new Euro dual, currently under test in Romania, has around 11,000 horses available when both modes are used at once. 10 have already been ordered for a German user HVLE.

I am sure the 5000+ horses available in electric mode are quite sufficient to power 1800t trains over the northern fells.

I remain to be convinced about adhesion in poor conditions, which the addition of more horses at the wheelrim will do nothing to solve.

 

[InOban]

The ability to run into non-electrified yards must save time =money. Any insider know how much?

 

[gsnedders]

The ability to run into non-electrified yards must save time =money. Any insider know how much?

I expect the bigger saving is not running the train for hundreds of miles on diesel under the wires (with the cost of fuel) or not having to do a shunt to put a diesel on the front near the end (where yes, time is going to dominate I'd expect).

 

[Mollman]

Does anyone know why the Tesco train seems to have switch back to pairs of 66s?

 

[59CosG95]

Does anyone know why the Tesco train seems to have switch back to pairs of 66s?

All the 88s are currently out of service for modifications; specifically updating the OTMR software across the fleet.

 

[Mollman]

All the 88s are currently out of service for modifications; specifically updating the OTMR software across the fleet.

Thanks

 

[furnessvale]

All the 88s are currently out of service for modifications; specifically updating the OTMR software across the fleet.

Must be fairly serious to warrant complete withdrawal, rather than being phased across the fleet to maintain customer service.

 

[CosherB]

Must be fairly serious to warrant complete withdrawal, rather than being phased across the fleet to maintain customer service.

Indicative of how much DRS need the 88s at the moment ......

 

[furnessvale]

Indicative of how much DRS need the 88s at the moment ......

Indeed, DRS are well overstocked with locos at present. However, customers are demanding the "green" credentials of electric haulage, witness the WH Malcolm and Russell trains, so the sooner those 88s are back on the road the better.

 

[cj_1985]

Indeed, DRS are well overstocked with locos at present. However, customers are demanding the "green" credentials of electric haulage, witness the WH Malcolm and Russell trains, so the sooner those 88s are back on the road the better.

I thought WH Malcolm had switched over to DBC... sure it was quite a number of months ago. DBC even have a WHM liveried 90

 

[TimboM]

Must be fairly serious to warrant complete withdrawal, rather than being phased across the fleet to maintain customer service.

The only customer service the 88s currently do are the one Tesco Daventry-Mossend return working (i.e. 2 of the 10 locos). They might as well stop all 10 and get it sorted at this stage in the game as isn't causing a great impact.

Also if it's OTMR (On-Train Monitoring Recorder) as reported that could well be a safety-critical matter that means they are not permitted to run until fixed.

 

[furnessvale]

I thought WH Malcolm had switched over to DBC... sure it was quite a number of months ago. DBC even have a WHM liveried 90

My point exactly. FLL and DBC are able to provide the electric haulage the customer desires. DRS need to get back into the game ASAP.

 

[HLE]

You are talking about power at the rail/wheel rim interface, which does not equate to prime mover power from whatever source. Prime mover power has to include not just power to traction motors but also power for on-board services and ancillary uses within the locomotive itself. The additional power from both modes together is used to improve acceleration and maintain higher speeds with heavy loads. I can ask later to see if diesel power is used on the class 88 on service trains while on electric power or only when changing oer to leave the wires. Changeover is done while moving.
FYI the starting tractive effort of the class 88 is the same in both diesel and electric mode even though the HP figures are 975 vs 5000+.

*engine not prime mover

 

[43096]

Also if it's OTMR (On-Train Monitoring Recorder) as reported that could well be a safety-critical matter that means they are not permitted to run until fixed.

No "could well" about it. OTMR is mandatory and a defect to the OTMR is a "train out of service" defect.

 

[ocelocelot]

Does anyone know when the 88s are likely to be back service?

 

[92002]

They have been back in service since Mid September.

Have seen many on the 4S43 Daventry to Mossend intermodal over the weeks and it's 4M30 return trip.

Although yesterday it was Diverted by ECML and was a pair of 68s. However that is a training need.
Sometimes also employed on Sellafield trains to Scotland.

 

[Freightmaster]

Does anyone know when the 88s are likely to be back (in) service?

As per 92002's reply above, I'm not sure what you mean by "back in service" - 4S43 has just passed
my house with 88001 in charge (88002 is allocated to the southbound train this evening) and class 88s
were working the train every day before the Christmas break too.


MARK

 

[ocelocelot]

They have been back in service since Mid September.

Have seen many on the 4S43 Daventry to Mossend intermodal over the weeks and it's 4M30 return trip.

Although yesterday it was Diverted by ECML and was a pair of 68s. However that is a training need.
Sometimes also employed on Sellafield trains to Scotland.

Oh that's good news, thank you. Everything had gone quiet in this thread so I was worried they were still out of service.

 

[Sunbird24]

*engine not prime mover

Prime mover is correct. In a diesel locomotive the engine is the Prime Mover while in an electric locomotive the Power Processor (electrical or electronics circuits which convert the source power to traction power) is the Prime Mover.

 

[Peter Sarf]

As per 92002's reply above, I'm not sure what you mean by "back in service" - 4S43 has just passed
my house with 88001 in charge (88002 is allocated to the southbound train this evening) and class 88s
were working the train every day before the Christmas break too.


MARK

I have been wondering. What do these 88s normally work apart from the Mossend / Daventry pair of workings. Currently seems DRS are only really using two class 88s out of ten. So I was wondering what else they could be (or are being) used for ?.

 

[Sunbird24]

I have been wondering. What do these 88s normally work apart from the Mossend / Daventry pair of workings. Currently seems DRS are only really using two class 88s out of ten. So I was wondering what else they could be (or are being) used for ?.

They have been working some flask trains, sometimes in pairs and sometimes with a class 68. Possibly other combos also.

 

[Freightmaster]

They have been working some flask trains, sometimes in pairs and sometimes with a class 68.

To clarify, it was only the Scottish trains (Torness/Hunterston) which were 88-hauled,
and even then it was only for a few weeks last Autumn, presumably as a trial.

More recently, one of the Crewe to Carlisle departmental services (6C18/6K27)
was regularly producing a class 88 a month or so ago, but even that now seems
to have ceased, with 66s back in charge on that diagram, leaving 4S43 and 4M48
Tesco trains as the only regular workings at present.


From a layman's point pf view, it looks like DRS don't have clue what to use them for!!


MARK

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless there are acceptance/contractual issues with the 88s, you have to wonder what the DRS business case was to buy 10 and only use a couple.
That's just like class 92s, most of which after 20 years are still lying about the network with nothing to do.
In that case I think the government picked up the bill (as a channel tunnel asset).
Meanwhile, most freight mileage under the wires continues to use class 66.

 

[Mordac]

Unless there are acceptance/contractual issues with the 88s, you have to wonder what the DRS business case was to buy 10 and only use a couple.
That's just like class 92s, most of which after 20 years are still lying about the network with nothing to do.
In that case I think the government picked up the bill (as a channel tunnel asset).
Meanwhile, most freight mileage under the wires continues to use class 66.

The more things change...