Conwy Valley Line

[Krokodil]

Everything can't connect everywhere

Almost everything can connect almost everywhere. What you need is to set out a strategy. Set a symmetry minute, designate nodes, start writing the timetable around it, and target your investment at the stations which need extra capacity to handle the concentrated departures and at the lines which have sectional running times which just exceed 28/58/88 minutes.

The biggest reason why we haven't got this in the UK is that no one in power has said "yes, this is what we want to achieve, make it happen". Start the process and in 30 years you'll rival the Swiss.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Almost everything can connect almost everywhere. What you need is to set out a strategy. Set a symmetry minute, designate nodes, start writing the timetable around it, and target your investment at the stations which need extra capacity to handle the concentrated departures and at the lines which have sectional running times which just exceed 28/58/88 minutes.

The biggest reason why we haven't got this in the UK is that no one in power has said "yes, this is what we want to achieve, make it happen". Start the process and in 30 years you'll rival the Swiss.

But you simply can't connect everything to everything. Yes, some things can connect, but not everything.
The RRB for Wedgwood and Barlaston needs to arrive at Stoke after the train has arrived from Crewe so people can continue their journey. But it needs to arrive in Stone before the train so people from Wedgwood & Barlaston can continue their journey. It's not possible! You could split the difference but is it then a connection? At what point does the wait become 'not a connection'? Then the bus has to turn round and connect on the way back too.
The train time is fixed due to paths in and out of Euston. The bus can't leave Stone before it arrives!

 

[WAB]

It makes it easier if you run the things you can more frequently i.e. buses. Once you get them more frequent, you can change the things they're connecting to to your hearts content and it'll work out.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It makes it easier if you run the things you can more frequently i.e. buses. Once you get them more frequent, you can change the things they're connecting to to your hearts content and it'll work out.

It's usual you can barely justify hourly, let alone even more

 

[AlastairFraser]

But you simply can't connect everything to everything. Yes, some things can connect, but not everything.
The RRB for Wedgwood and Barlaston needs to arrive at Stoke after the train has arrived from Crewe so people can continue their journey. But it needs to arrive in Stone before the train so people from Wedgwood & Barlaston can continue their journey. It's not possible! You could split the difference but is it then a connection? At what point does the wait become 'not a connection'? Then the bus has to turn round and connect on the way back too.
The train time is fixed due to paths in and out of Euston. The bus can't leave Stone before it arrives!

This is a great example of the failure of proper long term planning for the post-BR British railway though.
With a reopening of Barlaston (and investment tailored to support that), plus permanent closure of Wedgwood, this originally temporary solution should be consigned to the history books in any practically managed system.

 

[nwales58]

It's a difficult thing to achieve.

Very, very difficult indeed.

Left Arth-Goldau a bit ago. Northbound Basel and Zürich leave at xx15 plus several stoppets connect into and out of those. Buses 501 and 502 depart xx21. Rigi (rack railway) leaves xx23.

Will have taken years of work to get there but can be done.

Next stop Zug, similarly convenient.

Back to Conwy valley and connections.

Early in ATW days(my memory doesn’t include a year but someone will know) there was a serious recast with most lines moving to clockface hourly or 2-hourly excl Conwy Valley.
Over the years this had rotted somewhat. The NR performance enhancing running time generator has added random minutes to the Cambrian and North Coast times so they are no longer regular. The WC recast and so on made more tweaks. Integration needs clockface but the rsilway island in transport will morph again over the years.

 

[Krokodil]

Arriva's Standard Pattern Timetable disintegrated because of political pressure from below. Councillors and user groups failing to recognise the benefits of a regular train to the same place which can provide connections to regular trains to other places, instead they insist on the reinstatement of the token one train per day to/from Cardiff/Birmingham/Manchester, even though it merely ticks a box rather than provides a usable service.

 

[nwales58]

Meanwhile, Cambrian News reports that the early Barmouth and the 0852 Mach-Pwllheli and 1137 return are to be scrapped. Assume after the summer as that northbound is the peak tourist train.

The earliest anyone could get to Pwllheli from anywhere east of Machynlleth would be 1313.

Anyone with influence please howl loudly.

 

[Tom125]

Meanwhile, Cambrian News reports that the early Barmouth and the 0852 Mach-Pwllheli and 1137 return are to be scrapped. Assume after the summer as that northbound is the peak tourist train.

The earliest anyone could get to Pwllheli from anywhere east of Machynlleth would be 1313.

Anyone with influence please howl loudly.

Don't worry as a coast resident- I have "howled loudly" in my survey response- the loss of the 08:52 and its return is a shocking travesty- I have used it many times to get to Porthmadog and yes in winter it's quiet but it is a daylight service that gets you to Pwllheli, Barmouth and Port at a resonable time, I don't know who at TfW is responsible for that but they deserve sacking- the retiming and loss of the nightly service is equally annoying if you want a drink/ meal in Mach, Tywyn, Barmouth or even Shrewsbury. A barrier I always see living in Merionnydd is the fact there are just a few trains that connect at Dyfi for Aberystywth. The loss of the standard pattern timetable is really sad, gaps make it useless nothing worse than having to check not having the reassurance that every two hours there is a train, I know at the moment at XX minutes of the odd hours there is a train west or east.

 

[Meole]

Don't worry as a coast resident- I have "howled loudly" in my survey response- the loss of the 08:52 and its return is a shocking travesty- I have used it many times to get to Porthmadog and yes in winter it's quiet but it is a daylight service that gets you to Pwllheli, Barmouth and Port at a resonable time, I don't know who at TfW is responsible for that but they deserve sacking- the retiming and loss of the nightly service is equally annoying if you want a drink/ meal in Mach, Tywyn, Barmouth or even Shrewsbury. A barrier I always see living in Merionnydd is the fact there are just a few trains that connect at Dyfi for Aberystywth. The loss of the standard pattern timetable is really sad, gaps make it useless nothing worse than having to check not having the reassurance that every two hours there is a train, I know at the moment at XX minutes of the odd hours there is a train west or east.

Winter services are populated by OAPs on the free tickets.

 

[nwales58]

Winter services are populated by OAPs on the free tickets.

for which the passenger numbers will be underestimated as tickets are far from always issued.

Though last winter after the re-opening I probably was issued a ticket on about 3/4 of journeys. Some of this is when crew are busy between frequent stops helping confused visitors they de-prioritise zero revenue ticket issuing. On the Conwy Valley I always get a ticket but the winter workload is lighter.

 

[Meerkat]

A generalisation of course but bus train integration in Switzerland is probably easier because the country itself is laid out as branches - between mountain ranges and then up the side valleys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A generalisation of course but bus train integration in Switzerland is probably easier because the country itself is laid out as branches - between mountain ranges and then up the side valleys.

So is North Wales, pretty much. There are very few main roads in Snowdonia!

 

[izvor]

There are very few main roads in Snowdonia!

And even fewer railways.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How long is it until it's reduced to two hourly, then a couple of journeys a day until finally the route is scrapped due to low demand, then we're left with no form of public transport in the area...

Depends on how low is this "low demand" figure. Do you remember the "Use it or lose it" exhortations from some years ago.

 

[Krokodil]

And even fewer railways.

I dunno, I can count six railways and four trunk roads within the National Park boundaries.

 

[Meerkat]

So is North Wales, pretty much. There are very few main roads in Snowdonia!

There is very few anything except hills and (car driving) tourists!
Is North Wales really like that though, as you generally need connections at both ends - ie Blaenau to Llandudno and Porthmadog.

 

[snowball]

Feature on the Network Rail website:

Flood resilience work: Conwy Valley Line - Network Rail

We’ve worked hard throughout the years building up the resilience of Conwy Valley Line in North Wales. Read all about it here.

www.networkrail.co.uk

We’ve worked hard throughout the years building up the resilience of Conwy Valley Line in North Wales – to make sure we can get you moving safely again after severe weather.

The Conwy Valley Line is one of Britain’s most scenic railways – but its location near the Conwy Estuary makes it particularly susceptible to flooding.

This line sits on a floodplain so the tide from the estuary can cause problems in bouts of severe weather.

The railway cuts through the floodplain or land near the estuary and the water is often dammed behind the railway embankment. But water can pour over the line and flood it during high tides, like our teams saw in April.
Resilience work

Alex Hinshelwood, programme manager, Strategy and Planning for Wales and Borders, stressed that “resilience is not about being resistant”.

Alex said: “We have repaired the worst-hit areas of the line and made them resilient by installing rock armour to prevent washout but not prevent the overtopping of the railway.”

In fact, we extensively repaired the worst-hit areas of the line between 2019 and 2020 and invested £2.2m to make the line more resilient.

Engineers installed 16,000 tonnes of rock armour alongside almost 2km of railway between Tal-y-cafn and Llanrwst. The rock armour acts as an extreme weather-buffer by preventing the ballast – the bed of stones beneath the sleepers – from washing away during extreme storms and flooding.

Alex called it “innovative and the first of its kind for dealing with washout protection.”

He said: “It has since been used at two other locations in Wales and Borders to great effect.”

A faster recovery after extreme weather

These resilience measures also mean it can take days, rather than weeks or months, to repair the railway after a harsh storm or flooding. It also means you can depend on a more reliable service and avoid lengthy closures.

This was true this month when we closed the line on Tuesday 9 April due to flooding on parts of the line near Dolgarrog station. It took us just four days to repair and reopen the line. Without the rock armour, the repair may have taken four months.
Future proofing the line

This sort of flooding will occur more often because of climate change – and in the spring when high tide is more frequent.

But our resilience work means these events don’t affect the railway and your trains as badly as they may do otherwise. And our robust process means we can quickly repair and reopen the route to your services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How well has Dolgarrog station coped since the last works there were completed in 2020?

 

[Russel]

How well has Dolgarrog station coped since the last works there were completed in 2020?

Well, it's still there, it's survived the wettest 18 months on record so they did something right!

 

[nwales58]

However, just N of the Dolgarrog entrance a water main under the A470 decided it had had enough and closed the road for over a day earlier in April.

 

[Krokodil]

However, just N of the Dolgarrog entrance a water main under the A470 decided it had had enough and closed the road for over a day earlier in April.

A friend of mine is a retired highways engineer, working for several North Wales councils. He says that the only thing holding that 100+ year old water main (supplying Llandudno and Colwyn Bay) together is the clay. No one wants to spend the money to renew the lot.

 

[AndrewE]

Feature on the Network Rail website:
Alex Hinshelwood, programme manager, Strategy and Planning for Wales and Borders, stressed that “resilience is not about being resistant”.

Alex said: “We have repaired the worst-hit areas of the line and made them resilient by installing rock armour to prevent washout but not prevent the overtopping of the railway.”

In fact, we extensively repaired the worst-hit areas of the line between 2019 and 2020 and invested £2.2m to make the line more resilient.

Engineers installed 16,000 tonnes of rock armour alongside almost 2km of railway between Tal-y-cafn and Llanrwst. The rock armour acts as an extreme weather-buffer by preventing the ballast – the bed of stones beneath the sleepers – from washing away during extreme storms and flooding.

Alex called it “innovative and the first of its kind for dealing with washout protection.”

Flood resilience work: Conwy Valley Line - Network Rail

We’ve worked hard throughout the years building up the resilience of Conwy Valley Line in North Wales. Read all about it here.

www.networkrail.co.uk

To my mind this is still a Canute-like response. I know we are told that enhancement is not allowed outside of a specific scheme, but it seems mad to keep on spending money doing the same thing and not trying to design the problem out.
If key short sections of the embankment had been replaced by a low viaduct then the flood water wouldn't be impounded by the railway and it wouldn't drain away over the track (stripping the ballast as it went) but could flow under it. The track might get submerged, but you would hope it would re-emerge undamaged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To my mind this is still a Canute-like response. I know we are told that enhancement is not allowed outside of a specific scheme, but it seems mad to keep on spending money doing the same thing and not trying to design the problem out.
If key short sections of the embankment had been replaced by a low viaduct then the flood water wouldn't be impounded by the railway and it wouldn't drain away over the track (stripping the ballast as it went) but could flow under it. The track might get submerged, but you would hope it would re-emerge undamaged.

The area with the rocks dumped by it hasn't washed out since they were put there, so it basically is enhancement work.

 

[AndrewE]

The area with the rocks dumped by it hasn't washed out since they were put there, so it basically is enhancement work.

it will still take "just four days to repair and reopen the line" - when a different strategy might not have seen the ballast washed away at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it will still take "just four days to repair and reopen the line" - when a different strategy might not have seen the ballast washed away at all.

This most recent washout was not at a location where this had been done. The bit with the rocks has not washed out at all and has therefore only been closed while the water was in situ.

 

[Basil Jet]

Am I right in thinking there is no freight on the line? In which case I don't know why ballast is needed at all, a lightweight tram line with slabs would do whenever some ballast gets washed away.

 

[Krokodil]

Am I right in thinking there is no freight on the line? In which case I don't know why ballast is needed at all, a lightweight tram line with slabs would do whenever some ballast gets washed away.

No freight at the moment, but freight may return in the future.

 

[Pacef8]

Their is millions of tonnes of slag at the top end that can be used in furnaces so it would be foolish to not consider this as a business option to keep it off the roads that are not the widest and safest.

 

[nw1]

Winter services are populated by OAPs on the free tickets.

Given "winter" lasts until the end of May according to the railway, I suspect that isn't quite true.

I can imagine a lot of people wanting to use that service in April and May if the weather is fine, for example.