Data about barrier-less interchanges between National Rail and "Metro" parts of stations

[paulc222]

I am building a database that includes how Underground/DLR/EL/Overground (which i've generalised to "Metro") stations connect with National Rail stations. I need data on whether you encounter ticket barriers when changing between National Rail and "Metro" stations.

Here is the spreadsheet i need to fill in - i just want a yes or no in the final column:

Station Links

Sheet1 Station 1 Name,Station 1 Type,Station 2 Name,Station 2 Type,Interchange within fare control area? (do I need to go through ticket gates to change from station 1 to station 2?) Balham,National Rail,Balham,Metro Barking,National Rail,Barking,Metro Battersea Park London,National Rail,Queenst...

docs.google.com

Is there somewhere i can get this data? or is crowdsourcing it from this forum the best way?

(This post follows on from a post I created yesterday about how the Elizabeth Line connects with the rest of the network)

 

[pelli]

Crowdsourcing from this forum is probably going to get you the correct answers quickly as there will be plenty of people with local knowledge (of London as well as Dorking, Heath, St Budeaux and Wigan)!

I note that in your final column heading the two parts have opposite meaning: "Interchange within fare control area? (do I need to go through ticket gates to change from station 1 to station 2?)"

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Certainly need to go through barriers to enter/exit the station at Wigan Wallgate, unless they've been left open.

 

[Dr Hoo]

At the risk of starting the obvious, the Elizabeth Line and Overground are part of ‘National Rail’ in their own right. So many stations are shared, such as West Croydon, Reading, Shenfield, etc..

 

[Somewhere]

At the risk of starting the obvious, the Elizabeth Line and Overground are part of ‘National Rail’ in their own right. So many stations are shared, such as West Croydon, Reading, Shenfield, etc..

I was going to say the same. EL and Overground are National Rail. They are also TfL! They are both

 

[kacper]

filled in the London ones for you. the ones marked ? are interchanges that don't exist

 

[Bevan Price]

Certainly need to go through barriers to enter/exit the station at Wigan Wallgate, unless they've been left open.

No barriers at Wigan North Western, but occasional manual ticket checks at exit, or at foot of subway.

 

[paulc222]

Crowdsourcing from this forum is probably going to get you the correct answers quickly as there will be plenty of people with local knowledge (of London as well as Dorking, Heath, St Budeaux and Wigan)!

I note that in your final column heading the two parts have opposite meaning: "Interchange within fare control area? (do I need to go through ticket gates to change from station 1 to station 2?)"

Ah yes, bad heading. Let's take it to mean just "Interchange within fare control area?"

filled in the London ones for you. the ones marked ? are interchanges that don't exist

Wow, thank you for your work. As pointed out by Bevan, i've tweaked the heading and i've filled it in with your inverted answers. I've also looked at the comments and filled in a couple more.

 

[30907]

Wow, thank you for your work. As pointed out by Bevan, i've tweaked the heading and i've filled it in with your inverted answers. I've also looked at the comments and filled in a couple more.

Small query: where is "Kings Cross Northern" tube?

 

[paulc222]

Small query: where is "Kings Cross Northern" tube?

That'll be the Northern line part of the underground there. Looking at the map, this is probably also the Victoria line. Is the underground all one gateline at kings cross?

 

[liam456]

There's the original one where all lines are accessible from the same gateline (under King's Cross frontage onto Euston Road) and the new Northern ticket hall giving access to just the deep level lines. They have separate gatelines.

I can't remember where the subsurface platform exit that's halfway along the platforms comes out though...
(EDIT: Separate ticket hall on Euston Road but directly in front of St Pancras, making three gatelines/ticket halls.)

 

[plugwash]

If we talk about interchanges with tram/metro systems in general (not just those in London) As well as the obvious of "within the barriered area" and "outside the barriered area" there are surely other cases.

1. Stations with no barriers at all (sheffield springs to mind, I suspect some DLR/NR interchanges also fall in this cateory).
2. Interchanges where only one side of the interchange is inside barriers (many DLR interchanges fall in this category, many tram/metro systems don't use barriers at all so any interchange between such a system and a barriered rail station would fall in this cargory)
3. Stations where the obvious route exits and re-enters but there is a circitutous or otherwise discouraged route that avoids exits and rentries (IIRC this applies to EL <-> circle/district at paddington and to interchange between the barbican end of Farrindon EL and Barbican LU).
4. Barrier lines that only partially enclose an area. For example Manchester piccadilly there are barriers at the concourse end of some platforms but no barriers at the overbridge end.

 

[Somewhere]

filled in the London ones for you. the ones marked ? are interchanges that don't exist

Think those are down to the TfL / National Rail confusion, where Overground is National Rail, so to some it might appear there's separate services when there aren't

 

[WatcherZero]

4. Barrier lines that only partially enclose an area. For example Manchester piccadilly there are barriers at the concourse end of some platforms but no barriers at the overbridge end.

All the concourse platforms have barriers or ticket checks now so its pretty much enclosed and you cant bypass them via the overbridge, there is/was a little used lift that can bypass them to the 13/14 lounge from outside the station though.

 

[ShadowKnight]

At the risk of starting the obvious, the Elizabeth Line and Overground are part of ‘National Rail’ in their own right. So many stations are shared, such as West Croydon, Reading, Shenfield, etc..

I would also add this clarification again that there are certainly some national rail services which can be considered metro and hence may be more difficult to clarify if eventually numbers of passenger transfers between the national rail and national rail "metro" systems want to be calculated.

Also there are some other rail systems in the UK that may be worth adding to the list that have more than one national rail interchange.

Tyne and wear metro (quite a few stations are shared with national rail)

Manchester metrolink

Merseyrail (national rail)

Nottingham express tram

Sheffield supertram

West midlands metro

 

[plugwash]

All the concourse platforms have barriers or ticket checks now

The difference between barriers and manual ticket checks is that barriers are an obvious marker on the ground whether operating or not.

Whereas there is no fixed infrastructure for 8-11 so when the staff aren't there (as they weren't when I passed through about an hour ago) the line essentially just dissapears.

And I don't think I've ever seen anyone checking platform 12.

there is/was a little used lift that can bypass them to the 13/14 lounge from outside the station though.

Yup, the lift links the link bridge lounge, to platform 12 and fairfield street and the opening on fairfield street is pretty close to a metrolink entrance. I suspect said lift is probablly the shortest route from 13/14 to the metrolink platforms.

I've seen it out of service for maintinance a few times recently, but I think the last time I tried to use it the lift was in operation (and yes I did have a ticket)

 

[kacper]

also worth noting you can't change between Stevenage platform 5 and 1234 without leaving the paid area

 

[swt_passenger]

That'll be the Northern line part of the underground there. Looking at the map, this is probably also the Victoria line. Is the underground all one gateline at kings cross?

At Kings Cross the “Northern ticket hall” refers to its geographic location with respect to the “tube” ticket hall, and the “Western” ticket hall, it’s not just for the Northern line.

Yes there are paid side routes between all lines, but there are also a range of OSIs to allow for people who choose to use the gatelines.

 

[vic-rijrode]

Tyne and wear metro (quite a few stations are shared with national rail)

Actually just Sunderland! Platforms and entry for national (Northern) rail services at Heworth are entirely separate. The only other station "shared" with national rail is Newcastle Central and that also has entirely separate platforms and entrance for the Metro. The identically named Manors stations on Metro and national rail are separate stations.

 

[plugwash]

Based on a combination of my memory and things I've looked up online. Please correct any mistakes.

Tyne and wear metro (quite a few stations are shared with national rail)

Central Station/Newcastle: gating arrangements are completely seperate, Metro is fully Gated, NR station is only partially gated.
Sunderland: platforms shared by NR and Metro, open station with no gateline.
Heworth: NR side is ungated. I think direct access from the street to the metro station is gated, but the interchange passageway from NR to metro is not.
Manors: two nearby but seperate stations, not sure if either of them is gated.

Manchester metrolink

Navigation road: Tram and rail platforms are on opposite sides of the dual track formation but there is no footbridge so the rail and metrolink platforms have to be accessed seperately from the street. Neither side is gated.
Altrincham: Four platform ex-nr station with two platforms used by metrolink and two by NR. Station is ungated.
Manchester Airport: Ticket gates were recently installed for the NR side, but i'm not sure exactly how they work with resepct to the metrolink, from the NR map it looks like one metrolink platform is outside the gated area but one is inside it. Perhaps the second metrolink platform is rarely used.
East Didsbury: two entirely seperate stations some distance apart, neither is gated.
Eccles: two seperate stations, I don't think either is gated.
Manchester Picadilly, NR side has partial/leaky gating arrangements (discussed above). Metrolink side is (like all metrolink stations) ungated.
Deansgate: Stations on opposite sides of the road with an interchange bridge, neither side is gated.
Victoria: NR side is gated, metrolink side is open.
Rochdale: seperate, though nearby stations. NR station is gated, Metrolink station is open.
Ashton under lyne: seperate stations a fair distance apart, neither appears to be gated.

Merseyrail (national rail)

(defining merseyrail as "merseyrail electrics")

Southport - shared gateline
Ormskirk - appears to be ungated.
Headbolt lane - appears to be ungated
Bidston - platforms shared between merseyrail and regular rail services, appears to be ungated
Liverpool lime street - On the mainline side, based on the information I can find online, I think 1-5 have barriers while 6-10 are open, and I'm pretty sure the low-level merseyrail platform has it's own seperate barriers.
Liverpool South parkway - seperate ticket gates for the mainline and merseyrail sides.
Hunts cross - appears to be ungated.
Ellsmere port - appears to be ungated.
Chester - all platforms behind the same gateline

Sheffield supertram

Meadowhall - both sides appear to be ungated.
Sheffield - both sides are ungated.
Rotherham Central - tram platforms are accessed via ramps from the end of the rail platforms (trams use the same tracks as trains but their boarding height is lower, so they can't use the same platforms), appears to be ungated.