EMR Class 360's

[Murray J]

We get it. It's a sorry state of affairs. And if you're using the service regularly it's understandably and undoubtedly beyond frustrating. But do we really need the same comments every time a service is short formed? AFAIK nobody has tried to defend the poor performance, but some of the obstacles have been explained, as have the reasons why additional units wouldn't solve the problems.

Spot on, I think we get the idea...
And for the record, it looks like most days only 1 diagram at most are 4-car. These things happen. Are these trains packed typically? Looks like only Corby and Wellingborough have a 2tph service in total of the stations served. Most stations look to have a similar level of service to the stations I use frequently on the Brighton Mainline and those services have never been packed when I've used them (albeit with longer trains and normally travelling in the same off-peak periods every week).

 

[QSK19]

Currently travelling to STP and something I never thought would ever happen has indeed happened - I’ve abandoned a 222 at Kettering to get a 360.

Has anybody else done this? AIUI, the theory is that passengers boarding at Kettering should be more likely to get the 222 due to the quicker journey time; but the 222 I was on was packed and the 360 extremely lightly loaded by comparison.

Not sure whether it’s just me or whether there are others who do swap to the slower service for a more peaceful journey?

Despite my well-known criticism of their appalling condition, it is, in my case, the more attractive option.

 

[STINT47]

Currently travelling to STP and something I never thought would ever happen has indeed happened - I’ve abandoned a 222 at Kettering to get a 360.

Has anybody else done this? AIUI, the theory is that passengers boarding at Kettering should be more likely to get the 222 due to the quicker journey time; but the 222 I was on was packed and the 360 extremely lightly loaded by comparison.

Not sure whether it’s just me or whether there are others who do swap to the slower service for a more peaceful journey?

Despite my well-known criticism of their appalling condition, it is, in my case, the more attractive option.

I've only ever done it when using split tickets. Dropping back one train can sometimes give a big saving compared to one ticket or splitting on the 222s.

The 360s start fairly low loaded but can be pretty full by the time you get to Bedford or Luton so no tell point switching unless there's a cost benefit IMO.

 

[QSK19]

I've only ever done it when using split tickets. Dropping back one train can sometimes give a big saving compared to one ticket or splitting on the 222s.

The 360s start fairly low loaded but can be pretty full by the time you get to Bedford or Luton so no tell point switching unless there's a cost benefit IMO.

Yep it’s probably just the timing of my journey - at busier times of the day/week, I can well imagine that it would be a very unwise decision to abandon the 222 unless, as you say, there is a decent cost benefit.

Maybe because I’m travelling outside of core hours, against the flow of typical Friday night traffic and have some time on my hands, it’s worked out well.

 

[D_MTrains]

Currently travelling to STP and something I never thought would ever happen has indeed happened - I’ve abandoned a 222 at Kettering to get a 360.

Has anybody else done this? AIUI, the theory is that passengers boarding at Kettering should be more likely to get the 222 due to the quicker journey time; but the 222 I was on was packed and the 360 extremely lightly loaded by comparison.

Not sure whether it’s just me or whether there are others who do swap to the slower service for a more peaceful journey?

Despite my well-known criticism of their appalling condition, it is, in my case, the more attractive option.

As a Kettering local, I honestly value the space and capacity of the 360s when compared to the 222s. I realise the journey is slower by 20 minutes, but the guaranteed seat is very nice peace of mind when compared to standing which is very common. So I mostly take the slower train nowadays unless I can guarantee the faster train will not be too busy such as super early on a weekend for example. But I understand that most people would just take the first train or the one they specifically have on their ticket for example.

 

[Wyrleybart]

As a Kettering local, I honestly value the space and capacity of the 360s when compared to the 222s. I realise the journey is slower by 20 minutes, but the guaranteed seat is very nice peace of mind when compared to standing which is very common. So I mostly take the slower train nowadays unless I can guarantee the faster train will not be too busy such as super early on a weekend for example. But I understand that most people would just take the first train or the one they specifically have on their ticket for example.

Just checked today's lineup and as mentioned earlier, there is only one diagram formed of a single unit today. 360121 which started off with the 0638 COR-STP and finished with 2354 STP-COR

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Currently travelling to STP and something I never thought would ever happen has indeed happened - I’ve abandoned a 222 at Kettering to get a 360.

Has anybody else done this? AIUI, the theory is that passengers boarding at Kettering should be more likely to get the 222 due to the quicker journey time; but the 222 I was on was packed and the 360 extremely lightly loaded by comparison.

Not sure whether it’s just me or whether there are others who do swap to the slower service for a more peaceful journey?

Despite my well-known criticism of their appalling condition, it is, in my case, the more attractive option.

I suppose it depends on different people’s priorities. I usually like to choose whatever has a table for me so I may use the time to work on my laptop, and a plug never goes amiss. 360s of course have neither.

 

[ChrisC]

I suppose it depends on different people’s priorities. I usually like to choose whatever has a table for me so I may use the time to work on my laptop, and a plug never goes amiss. 360s of course have neither.

Perhaps the priority for some people boarding at Kettering is to be able to sit down. If a 5 carriage 222 arrives in Kettering from the north full and standing, with no reservations, good luck in trying to use a laptop.

 

[QSK19]

Perhaps the priority for some people boarding at Kettering is to be able to sit down. If a 5 carriage 222 arrives in Kettering from the north full and standing, with no reservations, good luck in trying to use a laptop.

Indeed, exactly why I did so yesterday. It was a gamble in terms of how many people alighted to connect to southern MML calls (as in, if most of the people alighted for that reason, it’d have been a poor decision); but it paid off - I just didn’t fancy having to sit in a full vestibule for 1.5 hours, when, for the sake of another ~30 mins (including interchange time at Kettering), I had a much quieter, spacious journey.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I suppose it depends on different people’s priorities. I usually like to choose whatever has a table for me so I may use the time to work on my laptop, and a plug never goes amiss. 360s of course have neither.

Presumably you will also choose one which has a seat or else the table becomes pointless! The need for a seat would at certain times of day at Kettering point you towards the 360.

 

[Mikw]

i always pick a 360 when travelling from Kettering, much cheaper advance fares, and if you go to the very back of the train you always get a seat.
Yesterday, the EMR website said my trip would be in a 4 car unit in both directions, but each time an 8 car unit turned up.
On the return leg from St Pancras i went to the very front of the train and there was hardly anybody in the first carriage.
I don't want a refurb due to capacity being lost, i would imagine the amount of cheap advance fares - in this current climate - would be reduced with fewer seats.

 

[Bikeman78]

Currently travelling to STP and something I never thought would ever happen has indeed happened - I’ve abandoned a 222 at Kettering to get a 360.

Has anybody else done this? AIUI, the theory is that passengers boarding at Kettering should be more likely to get the 222 due to the quicker journey time; but the 222 I was on was packed and the 360 extremely lightly loaded by comparison.

Not sure whether it’s just me or whether there are others who do swap to the slower service for a more peaceful journey?

Despite my well-known criticism of their appalling condition, it is, in my case, the more attractive option.

I'd take a nice Desiro EMU over a 222 in almost any circumstances!

 

[Doomotron]

I'd take a nice Desiro EMU over a 222 in almost any circumstances!

If only the 360s were nice Desiro EMUs then.

 

[QSK19]

I don't want a refurb due to capacity being lost, i would imagine the amount of cheap advance fares - in this current climate - would be reduced with fewer seats.

They are extremely grubby though (the carpet in 104 really was filthy and ripped in places); so a mini-refurb like replacement carpets, seat covers and mod cons like Wifi and charging sockets would freshen them up yet keep the same capacity.

I’m still a proponent of 2+2 seating; but I do recognise the arguments of keeping 3+2.

I'd take a nice Desiro EMU over a 222 in almost any circumstances!

Looks like you’ll need to go down south, on LNWR or on TPE (for DMU) then

If only the 360s were nice Desiro EMUs then.

 

[43066]

i always pick a 360 when travelling from Kettering, much cheaper advance fares, and if you go to the very back of the train you always get a seat.
Yesterday, the EMR website said my trip would be in a 4 car unit in both directions, but each time an 8 car unit turned up.
On the return leg from St Pancras i went to the very front of the train and there was hardly anybody in the first carriage.
I don't want a refurb due to capacity being lost, i would imagine the amount of cheap advance fares - in this current climate - would be reduced with fewer seats.

A 2+2 layout would surely increase capacity, albeit at the expense of fewer seats.

 

[Hadders]

A layout similar to the 350/1s would be ideal.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Are there cheap Advances from Kettering on these, obviously from Corby they have a monopoly. I'm not just talking about general rail sales either.

 

[Mikw]

A 2+2 layout would surely increase capacity, albeit at the expense of fewer seats.

Don't you effectively buy a "seat" when you buy a ticket?
I can only imagine the amount of advance singles will reduce with less seats.

Are there cheap Advances from Kettering on these, obviously from Corby they have a monopoly. I'm not just talking about general rail sales either.

Yes, plenty! All the cheapest seats are on the 360's, and because they stop at all the stations, there's a lot of "splits" too. As a leicester based traveller i have been unable to travel economically from Leicester for many years, but - driving to Kettering - the cost of the tickets on the 360 is often less than £30 return, even booked the day before.

They are extremely grubby though (the carpet in 104 really was filthy and ripped in places); so a mini-refurb like replacement carpets, seat covers and mod cons like Wifi and charging sockets would freshen them up yet keep the same capacity.

I’m still a proponent of 2+2 seating; but I do recognise the arguments of keeping 3+2.


Looks like you’ll need to go down south, on LNWR or on TPE (for DMU) then

I'd just settle for new carpet and charging points to be honest - and sorting out the climate control. It's not uncommon for it to freezing cold in one carriage, and toasty warm in the next one!

Other than that, and with the abundance of seating, i've never had to stand once.

 

[Hadders]

Don't you effectively buy a "seat" when you buy a ticket?

You pay to be transported from the origin station to the destination. There is no right to a seat..

To be serious, 3+2 seating isn't a good idea on trains between Corby and London. It was never then plan long term, and is only the case now because the planned refurbishment of the 360s hasn't happened.

 

[Southern Dvr]

You pay to be transported from the origin station to the destination. There is no right to a seat..

To be serious, 3+2 seating isn't a good idea on trains between Corby and London. It was never then plan long term, and is only the case now because the planned refurbishment of the 360s hasn't happened.

Long long ago Corby was originally meant to be a destination for the 319s I believe. So it’s always had the ‘risk’ of 3+2 seating. They were just spoiled with 222 & HST luxury for a while there!

 

[Mikw]

You pay to be transported from the origin station to the destination. There is no right to a seat..

To be serious, 3+2 seating isn't a good idea on trains between Corby and London. It was never then plan long term, and is only the case now because the planned refurbishment of the 360s hasn't happened.

So, will the loss of many seats mean more or less cheap advance singles then? Especially if there's a reservation system that comes with the refurb?

 

[Hadders]

So, will the loss of many seats mean more or less cheap advance singles then? Especially if there's a reservation system that comes with the refurb?

I doubt there'll be any change to the pricing strategy. I also doubt there'll ever be a 'proper' reservation system, it'll be counted places like LNR, Southern etc.

 

[Starmill]

So, will the loss of many seats mean more or less cheap advance singles then? Especially if there's a reservation system that comes with the refurb?

There's always going to be a strong availability of cheaper tickets from Corby and Kettering to London because otherwise everyone will just use the fast services. There's about triple the capacity there was before the 360s, and less overall demand, albeit some demand which was being carried by Thameslink has moved because that slot has gone to EMR. Corby itself, lets face it, is never going to be a big growth market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 2+2 layout would surely increase capacity, albeit at the expense of fewer seats.

Depends. Narrow 2+2 would (i.e. just unbolt the third seat and throw it in a skip), but wide 2+2 like the 350/1 won't increase capacity as the aisle isn't much wider.

 

[Starmill]

Depends. Narrow 2+2 would (i.e. just unbolt the third seat and throw it in a skip), but wide 2+2 like the 350/1 won't increase capacity as the aisle isn't much wider.

This is definitely a fallacy though. Have you ever travelled on a crush loaded 185 or 380? I can guarantee you get more standees per metre of aisle in those coaches than in a 360 or 450. The 380 does admittedly have the advantage of the table being half the size, but I don't see why that couldn't be done on a 360.

 

[AJDesiro]

Depends. Narrow 2+2 would (i.e. just unbolt the third seat and throw it in a skip), but wide 2+2 like the 350/1 won't increase capacity as the aisle isn't much wider.

Officially, a 350/1 can hold 230 seated, and 157 standing, while a 350/2 can hold 270 seated, and 117 standing, so they officially have the “same” capacity.

From the many crush loaded 350s I’ve travelled on (I’m sure you’ve been on plenty too being an MK local), I can safely say that the 350/1s seemed to be able to cope better than the /2s.

 

[SolomonSouth]

I don't understand the bad rep the 360s are getting on EMR; I recently went on a 350/2 (basically the same train) and the declassified first class was comfy enough, the train was very smooth at speed and it was decent inside as well. Can someone enlighten me as to why so many people hate on the 360s?

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't understand the bad rep the 360s are getting on EMR; I recently went on a 350/2 (basically the same train) and the declassified first class was comfy enough, the train was very smooth at speed and it was decent inside as well. Can someone enlighten me as to why so many people hate on the 360s?

Neglect.
Also, standard class on a 360/1 is quite a downgrade from that on the 222s that used to operate the route

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, standard class on a 360/1 is quite a downgrade from that on the 222s that used to operate the route

But no different from a 350/2 to Northampton - except one thing - the outrageous IC level Anytime fares. To be honest if I lived up there I'd probably drive to Northampton and save a fortune unless I intended on drinking alcohol.

 

[43066]

I don't understand the bad rep the 360s are getting on EMR; I recently went on a 350/2 (basically the same train) and the declassified first class was comfy enough, the train was very smooth at speed and it was decent inside as well. Can someone enlighten me as to why so many people hate on the 360s?

Mostly a dislike of change, I suspect. It’s fair to say that, while they aren’t as good as promised given the lack of refurbishment, they’re also nowhere near as bad as often reported on here.

Neglect.
Also, standard class on a 360/1 is quite a downgrade from that on the 222s that used to operate the route

They’re certainly more reliable now than they were, but they’re arguably also more comfortable than the Meridians in standard class. Once the refurbishment happens there should be an improvement.