EMR Class 360's

[bramling]

Agreed. Hopefully it gets resolved before twelve car trains are needed (albeit useage is going up rapidly so that may not be as far off as we have been expecting).



From what I’ve heard Bedford and Kettering have been pleased with the new timetable (when the trains run), Wellingborough rather less so, rather as you might expect! I can well imagine a lot of people are quite justifiably furious at the unreliability of the service over the last few months. As for the tired state of the trains internally, “embarassing” is one description I’ve heard more then once! It does seem to he going on the right direction, albeit taking rather longer than it should to do so.

This would tie in with what I’ve been hearing - one of my associates travels from Wellingborough, he was already underwhelmed at losing non-stop services (I presume his journeys happened previously to be at the right times), whilst the other comes from Corby and is happy to have the extra stops but only in return for all the other benefits the new service was supposed to deliver.

Agree about the possibility of 12-cars being needed sooner than some perhaps think. Elements of the industry seem to have their head in the sand at the moment. Whilst I’m by no means impressed with how things have been handled in the government/TFL snipe-fest, TFL has at least quietly got down to essentially attempting to deliver their full pre-Covid service, and - weekdays at least - has been able to make a reasonable job of it. Meanwhile on the big railway things seem to be stuck in the groove of Covid being used as the answer to everything, and it’s high time things moved away from this now. Whilst the rest of the world tries to get back to normal, the railway seems to be doing the opposite - scrapping trains and being rather quick to subscribe to the idea that things aren’t going to return to normal. The users won’t come back if they find the train is overcrowded and the industry is too busy squabbling over whether there needs to be a babysitter on board...

 

[MML]

Another 4-car unit operating a peak Corby to St Pancras this morning. Full and bursting.
Is it really that difficult to put 12 units in service each day from a fleet of 21?
I thought Bedford Cauldwell was being used for servicing these units?

 

[spotify95]

There was also a 4 car service yesterday evening, the 16.19 from Kettering to St Pancras - we were promised up to 12 cars but it seems the connecting services are now sometimes shorter than the previously used intercity services! At least the IC services were 5 car usually, albeit once per hour.
So changing at Kettering + worse trains (slower top speed, worse interior) + short formations (4 car or 8 car instead of 8 car or 12 car) = overall significantly worse service yet prices remain the same or higher?

Someone I know who used to commute Wellingborough - Market Harborough now drives. I wonder why...

 

[Martin222002]

Even if EMR could get a 12 car 360s in service they wouldn't be running in passenger service due to the RMT having instructed TMs not to work 12 car formations as part of their dispute with EMR.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Another 4-car unit operating a peak Corby to St Pancras this morning. Full and bursting.
Is it really that difficult to put 12 units in service each day from a fleet of 21?
I thought Bedford Cauldwell was being used for servicing these units?

Yes, not enough spare .
Caldwell...space for 2 on maintenance, that's all.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Yes, not enough spare .
Caldwell...space for 2 on maintenance, that's all.

But surely the stabling sidings at Kettering should be used for stabling spare units. Are all those needing to go to Cauldwell actually requiring attention, or is it an easy place to park them ?

 

[weastebusdepot]

Yes, not enough spare .
Caldwell...space for 2 on maintenance, that's all.

On Monday morning I traveled the length of the route and there were no short forms listed. No 360s at Cricklewood and KDS was empty. So if there were 12 units in service and a maximum of 2 at Cauldwell (which isn't visible from the main line), that means there are still 7 units that are somewhere that isn't part of the EMR electified network.

 

[Hairy Bear]

But surely the stabling sidings at Kettering should be used for stabling spare units. Are all those needing to go to Cauldwell actually requiring attention, or is it an easy place to park them ?

The sidings at Kettering are very limited Even if we had spare sets, there would be no time to start shunting around for an on-time departure.
As for those at Caldwell, they are on there bi- weekly exams, also space there is also very limited. The other units are at Easleigh for painting, or at Northampton for serious rectification.
The day to day situation will not change for a very long time. Your gonna have to get used to it.

 

[Mike395]

The sidings at Kettering are very limited Even if we had spare sets, there would be no time to start shunting around for an on-time departure.
As for those at Caldwell, they are on there bi- weekly exams, also space there is also very limited. The other units are at Easleigh for painting, or at Northampton for serious rectification.
The day to day situation will not change for a very long time. Your gonna have to get used to it.

Whilst fearing you're correct, I'm hoping otherwise, or EMR are going to have some problems to deal with from a customer service perspective, considering the gap in capacity between what Connect passengers were promised (and the timescales indicated) and reality. Peak 4 car services, and also those at 'peak' leisure times on Saturdays, are already full and standing south of Bedford.

With a bit of luck those currently benefiting from heavy maintenance at Northampton won't be too much longer.

 

[IanXC]

The sidings at Kettering are very limited Even if we had spare sets, there would be no time to start shunting around for an on-time departure.
As for those at Caldwell, they are on there bi- weekly exams, also space there is also very limited. The other units are at Easleigh for painting, or at Northampton for serious rectification.
The day to day situation will not change for a very long time. Your gonna have to get used to it.

That seems very frequent for a modern EMU.

 

[DorkingMain]

Can you expand on the acronyms please.

CD/RA and "bat and flag" are methods of dispatch where platform staff will given an indication to the driver that it's safe to depart. CD / RA is an indicator (usually displayed next to the signal) - it flashes CD (close doors) and RA (right away - clear to depart). Bat and flag is similar - platform staff positioned along the train will give an indication with a dispatch bat (white paddle-like thing) that it is safe to close the doors / depart, and the lead dispatcher, positioned by the cab, will give a green flag or other suitable indication to the driver.

You'll see these methods used at key locations where DOO trains operate but the dispatch risk is considered heightened to the point extra eyes are needed on dispatch. Clapham Junction's Southern platforms and Waterloo East are some typical locations you might see these methods of dispatch.

 

[MML]

360111 operating as a 4-car unit today on a peak commuter train.
Second day running of the new EMR Sardine tin. Maybe the branding people missed a trick.

 

[43066]

360111 operating as a 4-car unit today on a peak commuter train.
Second day running of the new EMR Sardine tin. Maybe the branding people missed a trick.

It’s now part of an eight car!

 

[A0wen]

From what I’ve heard Bedford and Kettering have been pleased with the new timetable (when the trains run), Wellingborough rather less so, rather as you might expect! I can well imagine a lot of people are quite justifiably furious at the unreliability of the service over the last few months. As for the tired state of the trains internally, “embarassing” is one description I’ve heard more then once! It does seem to he going on the right direction, albeit taking rather longer than it should to do so.

Completely understandable - Bedford has re-gained it's 2 fast TPH from London which it had lost for a time.

Kettering has now got a *much* better service of 4 TPH all day, two of which are fast from St Pancras.

Wellingborough has lost its northbound connectivity and has a fractionally slower southbound journey. And Wellingborough's fares are *significantly* higher than Bedford, Northampton or Huntingdon / St Neots for a service which on both standard and journey time is comparable.

Anytime return fares for comparison:

Wellingborough £ 106 - 56-59 mins
Northampton £ 65.80 - 59 mins
Huntingdon £ 49.70 - 1h10 - 1h15m
St Neots £ 44.90 - 1h 03 - 1h 07m.
Bedford £ 28.80 - 44 mins

 

[43096]

360111 operating as a 4-car unit today on a peak commuter train.

360111 has been a four car ever since it was built…

 

[AM9]

Completely understandable - Bedford has re-gained it's 2 fast TPH from London which it had lost for a time.

Kettering has now got a *much* better service of 4 TPH all day, two of which are fast from St Pancras.

Wellingborough has lost its northbound connectivity and has a fractionally slower southbound journey. And Wellingborough's fares are *significantly* higher than Bedford, Northampton or Huntingdon / St Neots for a service which on both standard and journey time is comparable.

Anytime return fares for comparison:

Wellingborough £ 106 - 56-59 mins
Northampton £ 65.80 - 59 mins
Huntingdon £ 49.70 - 1h10 - 1h15m
St Neots £ 44.90 - 1h 03 - 1h 07m.
Bedford £ 28.80 - 44 mins

Is the Bedford fare an any permitted or an 'EMR only'?

 

[A0wen]

Is the Bedford fare an any permitted or an 'EMR only'?

No operator restriction - it's an anytime return fare.

 

[59CosG95]

No operator restriction - it's an anytime return fare.

What's Kettering's Anytime return fare, out of interest? Based on the distance, I'd expect it to be broadly similar to Peterborough.

 

[A0wen]

What's Kettering's Anytime return fare, out of interest? Based on the distance, I'd expect it to be broadly similar to Peterborough.

Kettering = £ 112.

Peterborough = £ 121.20.

Though the latter does have some operator specific tickets which are walk up and bring the cost down.

 

[59CosG95]

Ketteirng = £ 112.

Peterborough = £ 121.20.

Though the latter does have some operator specific tickets which are walk up and bring the cost down.

I thought the two would be in a broadly similar wheelhouse.
A TSGN-specific Peterborough-St Pancras Anytime return is £64.70.
What EMR needs is some kind of fare differentiation between its intercity services & its Connect services; Corby's anytime return is £116.

 

[AM9]

I thought the two would be in a broadly similar wheelhouse.
A TSGN-specific Peterborough-St Pancras Anytime return is £64.70.
What EMR needs is some kind of fare differentiation between its intercity services & its Connect services; Corby's anytime return is £116.

That's why I asked if the ticket price for Bedford to STP was Thameslink only or not. Given that a lot of the Bedford commuters must travel into the core for work, a Thameslink only ticket, going to London Thameslink rather than London Terminals, there must be a fair market for saving by using the more frequent TL service and (when/if passenger levels in the peak pick up), a much better chance of getting a seat in the mornings.

 

[MML]

And today we have 360113 operating a peak service in isolation. Yet another 4-car when the promise was 12. 8-car would suffice but 4-car is just unacceptable. 2 x 360 units stabled in Cricklewood sidings are presumably unserviceable.

 

[Bald Rick]

That is only one example of why Class 360 fleet availability isn't as high as it could be because they attract birds like the the leading character in Stanley Kubrick's The Birds horror movie.

Quite appropriate really, seeing as the Kubrick family pile is within earshot of the MML (and only out of sight due to trees).

Are there some particularly stupid birds in Herts and Beds?

*sniggers*

And today we have 360113 operating a peak service in isolation. Yet another 4-car when the promise was 12. 8-car would suffice but 4-car is just unacceptable. 2 x 360 units stabled in Cricklewood sidings are presumably unserviceable.

As I posted elsewhere - I was on a peak Corby last week (1745 off Pancras) 4 cars. Enough seats for everyone, although some passengers chose to stand rather than sit next to people. Loads of spare seats after Luton.

 

[RailWonderer]

That is only one example of why Class 360 fleet availability isn't as high as it could be because they attract birds like the the leading character in Stanley Kubrick's The Birds horror movie.

That was a Hitchcock movie. As for unit availability, I went on one of the last ones in service in January and some were in such a state that EMR probably don't want to put them into service, I'm talking seriously vandalised loos and tarred black carpets as would be bad PR. Then there's mechanical issues that they'll need to iron out (MTIN fell 84k to 18k in 12 months).
EMR haven't exactly been the best for quick servicing and cleaning of units either, mind (given my experience on Meridians).

 

[MML]

Another 4-car peak departure from St Pancras to Corby this evening. There is something seriously wrong with the maintenance of this fleet when short forms are such a regularity.
And how long has the repaint taken so far at Eastleigh? Are they being rubbed down by hand?

 

[dereksingh291]

The 360s should've gone to London North Western Railway instead to work with the 350s

 

[Chiltern006]

the 350/2s would've been better with EMR if they had come off lease earlier, wouldn't be any worries about a guard not being in the other unit

 

[fgwrich]

Are they being rubbed down by hand?

Erm, yes. How else do you think repaints and repairs are carried out? I'm sure there is a valid reason for both units being down there, they aren't just doing it for the fun of it!

 

[MML]

Erm, yes. How else do you think repaints and repairs are carried out? I'm sure there is a valid reason for both units being down there, they aren't just doing it for the fun of it!

I had imagined an electronic machine in this day and age rather than a bloke with a piece of sandpaper in hand.
At this rate the whole fleet will be finished just in time for retirement to the scrap yard.

 

[AM9]

I had imagined an electronic machine in this day and age rather than a bloke with a piece of sandpaper in hand.
At this rate the whole fleet will be finished just in time for retirement to the scrap yard.

Electronic? Electric possibly such as a 'hand sander' but electronics won't remove paint/corrosion from a train body.