EMR Class 360's

[Mollman]

Right lets make this simple. The 360s are going to Eastleigh for the work mentioned below, this is work that will be scheduled as part of the maintenance by Siemens. It will have taken a long time for the first unit to be done because it always does as the team familiarise themselves etc.

It has been said up thread that
a) there is more than repaints being done; Siemens are doing reliability mods
b) bodywork overhaul/repaint is a required maintenance task and has to be done. It also often includes door equipment overhaul at the same time.

Is this all a waste of time in your ranting world?

Internal Refurbishment is being contracted by EMR and seems to be scheduled for later than originally hoped, as far as I am aware we are not sure yet who has been award the work.

 

[MML]

It has been said up thread that
a) there is more than repaints being done; Siemens are doing reliability mods
b) bodywork overhaul/repaint is a required maintenance task and has to be done. It also often includes door equipment overhaul at the same time.

Is this all a waste of time in your ranting world?

You appear to be confusing my complaint about repeated shortformed units and the work being undertaken at Eastleigh. With 2 units at Eastleigh and a requirement for 12 in service to provide 8 car services, that only requires 66% of total units. So the work at Eastleigh doesn't excuse the short forms. 33% or 7 of the fleet is neither at Eastleigh nor in service.

 

[londonteacher]

You appear to be confusing my complaint about repeated shortformed units and the work being undertaken at Eastleigh. With 2 units at Eastleigh and a requirement for 12 in service to provide 8 car services, that only requires 66% of total units. So the work at Eastleigh doesn't excuse the short forms. 33% or 7 of the fleet is neither at Eastleigh nor in service.

Maybe something is happening behind the scenes though with owners of 360 which means they are not all currently available. That kind of information might not be in the public domain?

 

[MML]

I did wonder about that. If EMR are operating under government funded emergency measures some bright spark at the DfT might have come up with an amendment to the lease whereby you only pay for using a reduced fleet due to downturn in passengers.
Likely only if the same units are in long term storage, although we don't know whether storage is for mechanical, dilapidation or financial reasons.

So far 2 days of short forms.
Monday was an overcrowded 4-car unit, but at least it turned up. The next service was cancelled due to a fault with the train.
Today, another 4-car full and standing.
It isn't a pleasant experience, particularly in COVID times.
Has 121 ventured out since its return from the paint shop?
And to think we were promised refurbished 12-car units.

So far 2 days of short forms.
Monday was an overcrowded 4-car unit, but at least it turned up. The next service was cancelled due to a fault with the train.
Today, another 4-car full and standing.
It isn't a pleasant experience, particularly in COVID times.
Has 121 ventured out since its return from the paint shop?
And to think we were promised refurbished 12-car units.

 

[DG85]

I did wonder about that. If EMR are operating under government funded emergency measures some bright spark at the DfT might have come up with an amendment to the lease whereby you only pay for using a reduced fleet due to downturn in passengers.
Likely only if the same units are in long term storage, although we don't know whether storage is for mechanical, dilapidation or financial reasons.

So far 2 days of short forms.
Monday was an overcrowded 4-car unit, but at least it turned up. The next service was cancelled due to a fault with the train.
Today, another 4-car full and standing.
It isn't a pleasant experience, particularly in COVID times.
Has 121 ventured out since its return from the paint shop?
And to think we were promised refurbished 12-car units.

So far 2 days of short forms.
Monday was an overcrowded 4-car unit, but at least it turned up. The next service was cancelled due to a fault with the train.
Today, another 4-car full and standing.
It isn't a pleasant experience, particularly in COVID times.
Has 121 ventured out since its return from the paint shop?
And to think we were promised refurbished 12-car units.

4 cars make a regular appearance;
17:17 from St Pancras was FULL and standing yesterday.
17:47 was 4 car on Monday FULL and standing. In these circumstances especially at peaks times they should be doing more to provide the capacity where it’s needed. In general since the arrival of the 360s it seems to be nothing but consistently bad planning

 

[MML]

1617 from St Pancras is a 4-car full and standing again today.
Absolutely unacceptable, especially as they are trying to fulfill the requirement of a non-stop express service to Luton Airport.
We have perfectly decent Class 365 units going to the scrap heap and the fleet of 21 Class 360s can't even provide 12 serviceable units on reliable daily schedule. Awful service.

 

[F Great Eastern]

1617 from St Pancras is a 4-car full and standing again today.
Absolutely unacceptable, especially as they are trying to fulfill the requirement of a non-stop express service to Luton Airport.
We have perfectly decent Class 365 units going to the scrap heap and the fleet of 21 Class 360s can't even provide 12 serviceable units on reliable daily schedule. Awful service.

This is a bed that Abellio have made and are now laying in it. Considering what the trains did achieve before they were let go in their last year at Greater Anglia (under Abellio), this is entirely a problem caused by Abellio, rather than an issue with the previously ultra reliable trains.

 

[Hairy Bear]

This is a bed that Abellio have made and are now laying in it. Considering what the trains did achieve before they were let go in their last year at Greater Anglia (under Abellio), this is entirely a problem caused by Abellio, rather than an issue with the previously ultra reliable trains.

Actually when they were first brought over to allow us, each one had at least a door fault ,traction faults , earth faults,and multiple a/c faults.
Some are still running around with some of these faults. There not as reliable as you think.
Oh here were go again ...a pair with total loss of of traction this morning.

 

[Goldfish62]

Internal Refurbishment is being contracted by EMR and seems to be scheduled for later than originally hoped, as far as I am aware we are not sure yet who has been award the work.

According to Modern Railways the first refurbished unit is due to emerge in Q3 22/23, ie around a year from now.

 

[Wolfie]

According to Modern Railways the first refurbished unit is due to emerge in Q3 21/22, ie around a year from now.

If your quote is accurate with respect to 21/22, and it doesn't actually say 22/23, the first refurbished unit should actually be emerging around now. 21/22 runs 1 Apr 21-31 Mar 22 so Q3 would be Oct-Dec 21.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Not a good day for the fleet.3 diagrams are only 4: cars.
Still 121 is out in service, not had chance to see what's been done.

 

[MML]

I just cannot believe Siemens has not been contracted to perform heavy maintenance and improved line maintenance support at the stabling points to avoid these repeated issues.
EMR have 21 units. The serviceability is appalling.

 

[43055]

I just cannot believe Siemens has not been contracted to perform heavy maintenance and improved line maintenance support at the stabling points to avoid these repeated issues.
EMR have 21 units. The serviceability is appalling.

Surely Siemens are involved as they run Bedford Depot? It doesn't help that there is only 1 path Monday to Saturday out of Bedford Caudwell to swap the units over so assuming they come in/out as a 8 car that would be 12 units a week.

Still at least there is still a normal half hourly service unlike the regional side.

 

[43096]

Surely Siemens are involved as they run Bedford Depot? It doesn't help that there is only 1 path Monday to Saturday out of Bedford Caudwell to swap the units over so assuming they come in/out as a 8 car that would be 12 units a week.

Still at least there is still a normal half hourly service unlike the regional side.

Heavy work is done at Northampton, which is a Siemens depot, but they see units even less frequently. There’s a point here about declining reliability that once it starts to drop, it takes a lot of time and effort to get it back.

 

[Hairy Bear]

No they only service 10 units a week. They only attend Kett/ C,wood as required.
As I have previously posted, if a faults found on prep ,then the sets not used.

 

[MML]

How often are units sent to Northampton for maintenance? They went there for the work to increase maximum speed mods but not sure whether a loco drag is a regular weekly occurrence.
Does anyone have a list of where the fleet are located and which are active?
There are no more than 2 units at Cricklewood. Less than 12 in service, only 9 today. 2 at Eastleigh.
Where are all the rest?
Makes you wonder whether a couple of fitters at Kettering and Cricklewood could resolve minor issues which don't require more in depth maintenance action.

 

[Goldfish62]

If your quote is accurate with respect to 21/22, and it doesn't actually say 22/23, the first refurbished unit should actually be emerging around now. 21/22 runs 1 Apr 21-31 Mar 22 so Q3 would be Oct-Dec 21.

No need to be like that! I did of course mean 22/23.

 

[Wolfie]

No need to be like that! I did of course mean 22/23.

I wasn't trying to have a dig, l was just confused!

 

[Goldfish62]

I wasn't trying to have a dig, l was just confused!

Fair enough!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Actually when they were first brought over to allow us, each one had at least a door fault ,traction faults , earth faults,and multiple a/c faults.
Some are still running around with some of these faults. There not as reliable as you think.
Oh here were go again ...a pair with total loss of of traction this morning.

Well in the year before last they were the most reliable units in their sector and won the golden spanner for exactly that and have been there or thereabouts for most of their lives.

I know that they had a fair few issues when EMR got hold of them, but my comment about Abellio was referencing that much of these issues dates back to the last year they were in service for Greater Anglia, also under Abellio, where their reliability saw a massive fall because they were unloved in their last 12 months etc. The rot set in before they even set foot anywhere near EMR land.

 

[Sleepy]

Well reading this thread with the shambles of a fictional timetable on the regional side plus the various ongoing industrial disputes with no urgency to resolve it seems like they're lurching from one crisis to the next !

 

[bramling]

No they only service 10 units a week. They only attend Kett/ C,wood as required.
As I have previously posted, if a faults found on prep ,then the sets not used.

It does seem that the issues run deeper than just the 360s being less reliable than hoped for.

Is the setup where pretty much all the units are outstabled every night sufficiently robust? It would appear not.

 

[Shunter_69]

Well in the year before last they were the most reliable units in their sector and won the golden spanner for exactly that and have been there or thereabouts for most of their lives.

I know that they had a fair few issues when EMR got hold of them, but my comment about Abellio was referencing that much of these issues dates back to the last year they were in service for Greater Anglia, also under Abellio, where their reliability saw a massive fall because they were unloved in their last 12 months etc. The rot set in before they even set foot anywhere near EMR land.

They were maintained by dedicated Siemens fitters at Ilford rather than GA fitters.

 

[Martin222002]

Well, after seeing this tweet the other day I can't help but think I smell the DfT / Treasury being unwilling to fund reliability improvements to get the 360s working reliably as they once did.

One senior engineer told @RailBusinessUK that £500 of rolling stock repairs had been delayed by multiple requests for justification from government officials, delaying the restoration of capacity and almost doubling the cost.

https://twitter.com/RailBusinessUK/status/1455866367505321986

This however doesn't get EMR and Abellio off the hook completely though, as it's very clear that not enough thought was put into how the 360s were going to be operated and maintained, as well as many other issues at EMR.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the delays to the refurbishment of the 360s were also connected to DfT mico-management, and not approving the work to start on even procuring it until obviously recently.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They were maintained by dedicated Siemens fitters at Ilford rather than GA fitters.

The contract with Siemens was a 'full service' contract when they were delivered, but it wasn't at the end, it was downgraded to a less comprehensive 'maintenance' contract.

As far as I'm aware, all the other Desiro fleets remain on either TSSSA or Full service contracts. See attached Siemens document from a few years ago in terms of what was under what.

It's worth noting that the 2 year contract in question would have ended in about 2019, perhaps they extended it or cut it back further, since it's well known that where Siemens used to service the 360s is now where Bombardier site is.

 

[DannyMich2018]

At Kettering now. 11.16 to Corby is 360117 and 110 on 11.19 to London SP. Whether the other 4 diagrams are just 4 cars I'm not sure. The 11.16 Corby deposited a lot of people at Kettering who changed to 11.22 Nottingham service which is standing room only again.

 

[RailWonderer]

Well, after seeing this tweet the other day I can't help but think I smell the DfT / Treasury being unwilling to fund reliability improvements to get the 360s working reliably as they once did.


https://twitter.com/RailBusinessUK/status/1455866367505321986

This however doesn't get EMR and Abellio off the hook completely though, as it's very clear that not enough thought was put into how the 360s were going to be operated and maintained, as well as many other issues at EMR.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the delays to the refurbishment of the 360s were also connected to DfT mico-management, and not approving the work to start on even procuring it until obviously recently.

I don't believe the comprehensive maintenance the 360s recieved from Siemens covered corrosion repair - remember the 350/1s needed it before undergoing refurbishment and I suspect the slightly older 360s do as well, hence lower availability added to the lack of stabling space in a depot. They are second fiddle to the 700s at Bedford and to the 350s at Northampton.
I wouldn't imagine convincing the DafT would be difficult if the alternative would be driver training costs involved in using alternative rolling stock, or reverting to using 222 DMUs and returning the service to hourly and saying we will just pollute more if you don't help us.
If all fails they could just introduce 365s on this route, it's not as if the 110mph on the 360s is being used, and the driver training would not take too long but the costs would balloon.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can't imagine £500 would have made much of a difference to be fair...

 

[westcoaster]

I don't believe the comprehensive maintenance the 360s recieved from Siemens covered corrosion repair - remember the 350/1s needed it before undergoing refurbishment and I suspect the slightly older 360s do as well, hence lower availability added to the lack of stabling space in a depot. They are second fiddle to the 700s at Bedford and to the 350s at Northampton.
I wouldn't imagine convincing the DafT would be difficult if the alternative would be driver training costs involved in using alternative rolling stock, or reverting to using 222 DMUs and returning the service to hourly and saying we will just pollute more if you don't help us.
If all fails they could just introduce 365s on this route, it's not as if the 110mph on the 360s is being used, and the driver training would not take too long but the costs would balloon.

They are not second fiddle to the 700's at Bedford. TL only stable and service (tanking, cleaning) at cauldwell, that's it.

I counted 6 360's at Cricklewood yesterday afternoon all laid up.

No they only service 10 units a week. They only attend Kett/ C,wood as required.
As I have previously posted, if a faults found on prep ,then the sets not used.

Which is where they need a technician based on site to help.

One problem is once failed on prep there is only 1 path to Cauldewell, only Kettering drivers take units onto the depot.

No drivers available on site to shunt trains around Cauldewell (have to come from Kettering if available).

No they only service 10 units a week. They only attend Kett/ C,wood as required.
As I have previously posted, if a faults found on prep ,then the sets not used.

Which is where they need a technician based on site to help.

One problem is once failed on prep there is only 1 path to Cauldewell, only Kettering drivers take units onto the depot.

No drivers available on site to shunt trains around (have to come from Kettering if available).

 

[Pippy1505]

Fleet of 21 usually 8 stopped on maintenance (5 at Cauldwell, 1 at Northampton, 2 at Eastleigh) leaves 13 for 12 diagrams not much room to allow for failures