Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[craigybagel]

It wasn't, it was cancelled. There's lots of shortforms with faults across the entire 15x/197/Mk4 fleets today so not great all round with multiple 2 or 3 instead of booked 4s and 5s

It's been a long time since I've seen so many 150s out on the Marches.....

 

[Starmill]

Conformed in next week's WONs, the linespeed changes Crewe - Shrewsbury go live from Sunday April 7th.

Thank you for returning to update us. That's great news.

Yet another totally rammed 2-car 197 on Cardiff-Manchester on Saturday (1W16, 1311 arrival at Man Picc) with 20-30 being left on many stations on route. This was whilst 1D38 (1326 Airport-Picc-Llandudno) was noticed with 2x197s a 4-car, lightly loaded. The whole 197 order should have been 3-car.

I was on the 2233 departure from Manchester Piccadilly, but given no Northern services at all yesterday I think the unfortunate reality was inevitable that TfW would be at a crush load between Wilmslow and Manchester.

 

[Topological]

Thank you for returning to update us. That's great news.


I was on the 2233 departure from Manchester Piccadilly, but given no Northern services at all yesterday I think the unfortunate reality was inevitable that TfW would be at a crush load between Wilmslow and Manchester.

Off-topic, but in past strikes TfW did not set down at Wilmslow and hence did not get overloaded with passengers who would otherwise have used Northern/Avanti.

It would be great to say that there was strong availability to use these new speed options, but sadly sounds like the Mk4 are not behaving again. Meanwhile, the 175s are costing TfW a lot of money and the 197 introduction is not going to plan.

Makes the M5 through the West Midlands almost attractive.

 

[Jez]

Do we know how many MK4 diagrams are likely to be run by MK4s this week or the next few days ?

 

[Starmill]

Off-topic, but in past strikes TfW did not set down at Wilmslow and hence did not get overloaded with passengers who would otherwise have used Northern/Avanti.

It would be great to say that there was strong availability to use these new speed options, but sadly sounds like the Mk4 are not behaving again. Meanwhile, the 175s are costing TfW a lot of money and the 197 introduction is not going to plan.

Makes the M5 through the West Midlands almost attractive.

They have done it when they've been the only service yes. Currently it's generally Northern and Avanti West Coast on different days, but Avanti don't run evenings from Manchester to Crewe.

 

[sd0733]

Do we know how many MK4 diagrams are likely to be run by MK4s this week or the next few days ?

The 6:27 from Manchester won't tomorrow but everything other than that is at least planned to

 

[PaulHarding150]

The 6:27 from Manchester won't tomorrow but everything other than that is at least planned to

Did they run? RealTimeTrains suggests otherwise

 

[Topological]

Looks like the 16:30 from Manchester was a 2-car 197 instead of the Mk4. The 10:30 and 18:30 still don't have a Mk4 allocated despite being severed at Cardiff.

Seems there was also a signalling equipment issue in the middle of the day near Nantwich, but not sure that is why there was no Mk4 for the 16:30.

 

[MP393]

Seems there was also a signalling equipment issue in the middle of the day near Nantwich, but not sure that is why there was no Mk4 for the 16:30.

It didn’t cause any swaps just delays. 1V42 (12:30 ex Manc) was the worst affected as it was sent out from Crewe right behind the “local” all shacks, and with trains being talked passed signals at Nantwich & Wrenbury this took a long time to follow to Shrewsbury and ended an hour late into Cardiff and both crew are diagrammed a break before taking it back so delayed 1W23.

67013 + HD06 also hit sheep earlier in the day, and as such is currently at Shrewsbury having been swapped off 1W65 in favour for a 2 car 197, as it requires to go to Canton now instead of Crewe ATC. It’s now forming 1V99 23:09 Shrewsbury - Cardiff to facilitate this, a very rare drop for a mk4 and certainly a change from the normal lash up of 15x on that service!

 

[sd0733]

Did they run? RealTimeTrains suggests otherwise

Seems that that entire diagram didn't run in the end. A loco exam on 67015 was scheduled for today but appears to have been done yesterday instead. Whether that was linked to the Wrenbury issues or not I'm not sure.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Ah cheers. Hopefully an isolated one off then and things can get back to normal.

 

[Topological]

Seems to have got worse, the 14:30 from Manchester is a 150 today.

The 06:27 was a 2-car 197 again, whilst the 10:30 was a pair of 153s (Not that the Mk4 availability allows that diagram to be a Mk4 regularly yet).

At least the 16:30 from Manchester is a 5 car today, so that will be better than the 2-car 197 that ran it yesterday.

 

[Jez]

Seems to have got worse, the 14:30 from Manchester is a 150 today.

The 06:27 was a 2-car 197 again, whilst the 10:30 was a pair of 153s (Not that the Mk4 availability allows that diagram to be a Mk4 regularly yet).

At least the 16:30 from Manchester is a 5 car today, so that will be better than the 2-car 197 that ran it yesterday.

Not a good day for MK4 availability it seems.

And a couple of 197s missing on the West Wales to Manchester route but at least they had 158s to replace them.

Still, its not good to see 150s and 153 pairs still on these long distance services but it is less frequent than it was about 6 months ago. We were told over a year ago that Sprinters ( not including Sundays) wouldnt be on the Marches much longer, they are certainly not going quietly!

So todays departures from Manchester heading to South Wales

0627 - 2 car 197 (Cardiff)
0730 - 3 car 197 (Carmarthen)
0830 - MK4 5 car (Cardiff)
0930 - 2 car 158 (Carmarthen)
1030 - 2 x 153 (Cardiff)
1130 - 2 car 197 (Carmarthen)
1230 - MK4 4 car (Cardiff)
1330 - 3 car 197 (Carmarthen)
1430 - 2 car 150 (Cardiff)
1530 - 2 car 158 (Carmarthen)
1630 - MK4 5 car (Swansea)
1730 - 3 car 197 (Cardiff)
1830 - 3 car 197 (Cardiff)
1930 - 3 car 197 (Cardiff)


Quite a mixed bag today - at least everything from 1630 to 1930 was a 3 car or more. But quite a surprise to only see 3 MK4 departures despite 5 being booked.

 

[Topological]

Yes, it is good that they found the 3-car 197 to cover the second half of the diagram that had been 2x153. That pair coming back to Manchester to form the 18:30 Mk4 replacement would have been cosy.

It is madness to think that the trains were supposed to be all 5 car by now when looking at that (notwithstanding all the delays to the approval of 5-car 197s between Shrewsbury and Crewe)

So basically today saw 2 sets doing their planned runs between Cardiff and Manchester (the 12:30 comes back to be the 20:30, but that does not go to Cardiff)

 

[BillStampy]

HD03 just cancelled at Cardiff to due a problem with the train, does anyone know what the issue is?

 

[sd0733]

HD03 just cancelled at Cardiff to due a problem with the train, does anyone know what the issue is?

Low on fuel. Seems an unusual one as normally get a top up at Canton in the Downtime between trips.

 

[Jez]

HD03 just cancelled at Cardiff to due a problem with the train, does anyone know what the issue is?

Oh dear. So even the one MK4 that visits Swansea didnt make it there today and no replacement to take over at Cardiff.

Yes, it is good that they found the 3-car 197 to cover the second half of the diagram that had been 2x153. That pair coming back to Manchester to form the 18:30 Mk4 replacement would have been cosy.

Yes good to see the 1830 was a 3 car 197. I used to catch that often when it went through to Carmarthen. Havent since it changed to just a Cardiff service but it was usually 2 car 175 and full between Manchester and Crewe.

 

[sd0733]

Quite a mixed bag today - at least everything from 1630 to 1930 was a 3 car or more. But quite a surprise to only see 3 MK4 departures despite 5 being booked.

Should be 4 of the 5 tomorrow, the 06:27 once again substituted for The 3rd day in a row, unusual as that diagram is traditionally one of the regulars.
HD07, which was taken out with a door fault earlier, should then pick up the diagram at 12:49.

 

[Jez]

Should be 4 of the 5 tomorrow, the 06:27 once again substituted for The 3rd day in a row, unusual as that diagram is traditionally one of the regulars.
HD07, which was taken out with a door fault earlier, should then pick up the diagram at 12:49.

Thanks as always for the update. I find the one that is the most likely to be subbed for a 197 (aside from the Swansea starter which is officially booked a 197) is the diagram that involves the 1649 from Cardiff to Manchester.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Yes good to see the 1830 was a 3 car 197. I used to catch that often when it went through to Carmarthen. Havent since it changed to just a Cardiff service but it was usually 2 car 175 and full between Manchester and Crewe.

NO NO NO, NO! don’t say such things about our gracious 175’s !!
There was no reason to get rid of them !!
Is what I imagine many of the 197 haters would say.

 

[sd0733]

Thanks as always for the update. I find the one that is the most likely to be subbed for a 197 (aside from the Swansea starter which is officially booked a 197) is the diagram that involves the 1649 from Cardiff to Manchester.

Yes that's the one which generally does get swapped if a set down as its the only diagram (as well as the missing one too) that start and finish in the same place.

 

[Topological]

NO NO NO, NO! don’t say such things about our gracious 175’s !!
There was no reason to get rid of them !!
Is what I imagine many of the 197 haters would say.

I know, fancy accusing the 175s of delivering a through train to Swansea after 16:30 from Manchester

In all seriousness the Mk4 vanity project destroyed connectivity and then when the TfW control do not even hold the connection for a minute then you know why there might be one or two harks back to better days.

Yes, the future will be better, but it could have been a much better transfer.

Worth always remembering that we are still all paying for the 175s that we stare out of the too often 2 carriages to look at in the sidings near Crewe.

 

[Jez]

NO NO NO, NO! don’t say such things about our gracious 175’s !!
There was no reason to get rid of them !!
Is what I imagine many of the 197 haters would say.

I had no problem with the 175s. I was just pointing out that the 1830 was booked for a 2 car which was very often full leaving Manchester.

And I really like the 197s no matter what some people think of them.

I know, fancy accusing the 175s of delivering a through train to Swansea after 16:30 from Manchester

In all seriousness the Mk4 vanity project destroyed connectivity and then when the TfW control do not even hold the connection for a minute then you know why there might be one or two harks back to better days.

Yes, the future will be better, but it could have been a much better transfer.

Worth always remembering that we are still all paying for the 175s that we stare out of the too often 2 carriages to look at in the sidings near Crewe.

I dont know why the 1830 just cant be extended to Swansea anyway and run ECS back to Canton. I assume it is to do with train crew or not having enough fuel to make it to Swansea and back. Obviously there is a connection to Swansea and Carmarthen but there is no reason that couldnt run as well, given there is around 15 minutes gap and it is meant to go via the district line Mon-Thurs an extra service to Swansea would be useful.

Yes that's the one which generally does get swapped if a set down as its the only diagram (as well as the missing one too) that start and finish in the same place.

Yes i caught that one a few months back and it was a 2 car 197. Recently though availability seemed to have been much better until the last few week or so when it seems to have dropped again. Seen quite a few posts on social media 'the following services wont have first class today'.

 

[Krokodil]

And I really like the 197s no matter what some people think of them.

Unfortunately most of those are 2-car sets too.

 

[sd0733]

Recently though availability seemed to have been much better until the last few week or so when it seems to have dropped again. Seen quite a few posts on social media 'the following services wont have first class today'.

Availability has definitely been affected by the loss of HD04, also with HD01 and HD02 also on exams and HD06 being damaged hitting sheep.

HD01 is now back, HD02 should be back early next week and HD06 back on Thursday which should help a lot.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I had no problem with the 175s. I was just pointing out that the 1830 was booked for a 2 car which was very often full leaving Manchester.

My apologies, I wasn’t trying to say you were.
My point was some people (not yourself) make out like the 175’s were totally perfect and that the 197’s ruined everything.

I know, fancy accusing the 175s of delivering a through train to Swansea after 16:30 from Manchester

Naughty 175’s providing a good and useful rail service !! But truthfully, as I’ve said before, I do totally understand and I wish that all the mk4 diagrams would go to Swansea but we know it’s just not possible with the 67’s fuel capacity.

In all seriousness the Mk4 vanity project destroyed connectivity and then when the TfW control do not even hold the connection for a minute then you know why there might be one or two harks back to better days.

Yes, the future will be better, but it could have been a much better transfer.

Worth always remembering that we are still all paying for the 175s that we stare out of the too often 2 carriages to look at in the sidings near Crewe.

I think calling it a vanity project Isn’t too fair either, they set out to provide a higher quality train service with first class and a full kitchen capability, which they’ve done (when it runs of course). And I wouldn’t be all too surprised if they’d have liked it to keep through connections too but when it was looked at, couldn’t be done.

It could have been better, in more ways than 1! There’s certainly better trains the 197’s (even though I like them).

This hand back phase would have to happen at someone I suppose.

 

[Jez]

My apologies, I wasn’t trying to say you were.
My point was some people (not yourself) make out like the 175’s were totally perfect and that the 197’s ruined everything.

Ah okay..I understand now

Unfortunately most of those are 2-car sets too.

True but eventually they should all be 5 cars. A 2 car set whether a Sprinter 175 or 197 isn't great on any services to and from Manchester

Looks like an improvement today but the 1630 to Swansea is a 3 car 197 rather than a MK4, at least it should make it all the way to Swansea.

 

[sd0733]

Looks like an improvement today but the 1630 to Swansea is a 3 car 197 rather than a MK4, at least it should make it all the way to Swansea.

All being well it shouldn't be. HD07 is planned to pick up that diagram from Cardiff so should work 12:49 from Cardiff/16:30 from Manchester.

 

[Topological]

My apologies, I wasn’t trying to say you were.
My point was some people (not yourself) make out like the 175’s were totally perfect and that the 197’s ruined everything.


Naughty 175’s providing a good and useful rail service !! But truthfully, as I’ve said before, I do totally understand and I wish that all the mk4 diagrams would go to Swansea but we know it’s just not possible with the 67’s fuel capacity.


I think calling it a vanity project Isn’t too fair either, they set out to provide a higher quality train service with first class and a full kitchen capability, which they’ve done (when it runs of course). And I wouldn’t be all too surprised if they’d have liked it to keep through connections too but when it was looked at, couldn’t be done.

It could have been better, in more ways than 1! There’s certainly better trains the 197’s (even though I like them).

This hand back phase would have to happen at someone I suppose.

To me, the fact that the project delivered things like a kitchen (nice to have) instead of things like connectivity (primary purpose) means that it is a vanity project that ultimately places style ahead of substance. Once the issue with the 67s was identified then that should have been that, rather than trying to muddle something together with splits at Cardiff.

I like the 197s and would be perfectly happy if there had just been a transition from 175 to 197, though as has been shown it would have required a different depot being home to the 197s. I still advocate for brownfield sites like Swansea Maliphant, rather than taking over the depot that was servicing the main fleet so far ahead of that main fleet being withdrawn, but that ship sailed in a decision a long time before the first 197 arrived. If the first class provision was really a thing then there is first class on 197s. The kitchen I suspect most passengers would be very happy to do without.

There is so much that can be done better almost immediately, like guaranteeing the connection on the few connections that still work cross Cardiff. By the next available timetable change all connections could work (that is happening I believe), again with guarantees. Refunds for delay repay are all well and good, but most people just want to get on the train as planned rather than watch it pulling out the neighbouring platform on time.

I do worry about what will happen next as the 150s are now coming to the end of their lives and there is going to be less stock to cover. Maybe we get to the point where the existence of the Mk4 is the saviour of the service.

I just hope that TfW do reflect and that when the time comes for the next major transition of fleets more focus is placed on the core elements of the service provision.

 

[Krokodil]

True but eventually they should all be 5 cars. A 2 car set whether a Sprinter 175 or 197 isn't great on any services to and from Manchester

Quite a few other routes could do with longer formations too, but two coaches is apparently all they'll get.