First Potteries Discussion

[Martin2013]

Given the old Cheshire Bus Services thread has been closed down I thought I'd start this one solely for discussing First Potteries services that operate within the Cheshire boundary (so Service 3 between Hanley and Crewe and Service 6 between Crewe and Leighton).

Today was supposed to be the first day of the new Service 6 but there didn't seem to be any evidence of it operating and if it did then it was being worked independently of Service 3.

Did anyone else happen to see the 6 running and if so what was being used on it?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Given the old Cheshire Bus Services thread has been closed down I thought I'd start this one solely for discussing First Potteries services that operate within the Cheshire boundary (so Service 3 between Hanley and Crewe and Service 6 between Crewe and Leighton).

Today was supposed to be the first day of the new Service 6 but there didn't seem to be any evidence of it operating and if it did then it was being worked independently of Service 3.

Did anyone else happen to see the 6 running and if so what was being used on it?

First's service to Leighton Hospital was definitely in operation today. Operated by Streetlights off the 3. Buses arrive into Crewe as a 3 from Hanley, do one trip on the 6 to Leighton and back, before returning to Hanley as the 3. During the main part of the day this gives one minute in Crewe bus station between arriving as a 3 and departing as a 6 and vice versa.

 

[Martin2013]

Thanks for clarifying this. I obviously missed it and for whatever reason the 6 isn't tracking on bustimes.org.

 

[SeanM1997]

There were numerous delays in peak times today - so wonder how reliable the service will be. Will be interesting if First Potteries merge the routes going forward or will keep it as two separate - no doubt two separate allows them to charge more

First used to have a relatively decent presence in Crewe and South Cheshire. Perhaps if this does well and their brand improves, they will look to take on D&G by extending 1 20 Keele-Hanley to Crewe an hour or extend route 4 from Audley to Crewe

Additionally, D&G serve an hourly service between Congleton and Newcastle but nobody serves Congleton - Hanley. Maybe an opportunity for First to extend its 7A Biddulph - Hanley over to Congleton?

 

[Lewisham2221]

There were numerous delays in peak times today - so wonder how reliable the service will be. Will be interesting if First Potteries merge the routes going forward or will keep it as two separate - no doubt two separate allows them to charge more

First used to have a relatively decent presence in Crewe and South Cheshire. Perhaps if this does well and their brand improves, they will look to take on D&G by extending 1 20 Keele-Hanley to Crewe an hour or extend route 4 from Audley to Crewe

Additionally, D&G serve an hourly service between Congleton and Newcastle but nobody serves Congleton - Hanley. Maybe an opportunity for First to extend its 7A Biddulph - Hanley over to Congleton?

The last time the Keele route was extended it caused chaos for reliability and punctuality and resulted in far too many single deckers serving the uni. I can't imagine there being much desire to mess with a service that's just had a brand new fleet of "dedicated" buses purchased for it.

Given that previous Hanley to Congleton services no longer operate, I'd hazard a guess at there not being that much of a market for it. The D&G 94 is more of a convenient byproduct of them taking on the former Bakers of Biddulph 94 (Newcastle to Biddulph) and 99? (Biddulph to Congleton), merging them into one service as they would probably use the same bus and driver anyway to avoid having to shuttle relief drivers to/from Biddulph or Congleton

 

[Simon75]

The last time the Keele route was extended it caused chaos for reliability and punctuality and resulted in far too many single deckers serving the uni. I can't imagine there being much desire to mess with a service that's just had a brand new fleet of "dedicated" buses purchased for it.

Given that previous Hanley to Congleton services no longer operate, I'd hazard a guess at there not being that much of a market for it. The D&G 94 is more of a convenient byproduct of them taking on the former Bakers of Biddulph 94 (Newcastle to Biddulph) and 99? (Biddulph to Congleton), merging them into one service as they would probably use the same bus and driver anyway to avoid having to shuttle relief drivers to/from Biddulph or Congleton

In addition double deckers won't fit under the bridge by Tesco Kidsgrove.

 

[childwallblues]

Did the 3 not run to Leighton Hospital many years ago?

 

[SeanM1997]

Did the 3 not run to Leighton Hospital many years ago?

The 20 did about 7 years ago. Operating via Broad Street and Mablins Lane

The 6 goes a completely different route. I suspect they kept the 6 number for passenger familiarity but in time will rebrand it to the 3 if they keep the route

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 20 did about 7 years ago. Operating via Broad Street and Mablins Lane

The 6 goes a completely different route. I suspect they kept the 6 number for passenger familiarity but in time will rebrand it to the 3 if they keep the route

As did the 3, briefly, during the time that it ran Keele-Hanley-Crewe-Leighton Hospital via the current 25 route between Keele and Hanley

 

[Martin2013]

The vehicles on the 3 and 25 seem to interwork on a Sunday and as far as known they have done for at least the last 5 years or so. Does this tend to lead to the same reliability issues which caused problems when the 3 ran between Crewe and Keele?

 

[Lewisham2221]

The vehicles on the 3 and 25 seem to interwork on a Sunday and as far as known they have done for at least the last 5 years or so. Does this tend to lead to the same reliability issues which caused problems when the 3 ran between Crewe and Keele?

When the 3 and 25 were split, the Sunday working essentially stayed the same, yes. Thankfully the roads and services are far less busy on a Sunday, so the reliability issues are far less of a problem.

 

[sonic2009]

Appears to be delays on the 3 Hanley - Crewe so will affect the number 6.

 

[SeanM1997]

2 July 2023
First Potteries 3 Crewe - Hanley: timetable revised, most 1st and last journeys withdrawn due to the end of Bus Recovery Grant funding.

Bus Service Timetables and Journey Planning

Bus timetable and route details for bus services in Cheshire East Council's area including Crewe, Nantwich, Congleton, Macclesfield and Alsager.

www.cheshireeast.gov.uk

 

[Martin2013]

Presumably the 20.30 departure from Hanley to Radway Green is going then and the last one back from Crewe at 20.30 ish also going?

 

[SeanM1997]

Presumably the 20.30 departure from Hanley to Radway Green is going then and the last one back from Crewe at 20.30 ish also going?

The £2 bus price cap has been extended until October 2023, then will rise to £2.50 until November 2024. Hopefully this has saved the service

Bus £2 fare cap extended to end of October

The decision is the second time the government has extended the cap for bus operators in England.

www.bbc.co.uk

The £2 cap on bus fares in England has been extended again until the end of October, the government has announced.

The cap, which applies to more than 130 bus operators outside of London, will then rise in November to £2.50 for 12 months, before prices are reviewed.

The current limit on fares has now been extended twice after warnings hundreds of services could be cut without it.

Its aim is to ease the cost of living pressures on passengers but also to encourage people to use buses.

Bus operators have still not seen the same number of passengers return to using services as before the Covid pandemic, with levels recovering to around 85 to 90%, according to the Department for Transport.

The Confederation of Passenger Transport, which is the trade association for the UK's bus and coach sector, welcomed the extra funding for the scheme and said it would help operators and councils to "promote and grow services with greater confidence".

Please remember to include a relevant quote from your source - mod

 

[JD2168]

With the 13/63 plate StreetLite’s at South Yorkshire being withdrawn due to end of lease with the two at Potteries or this batch (63012/63034) have to be withdrawn due to the same reason or are these now owned by First?

 

[Simon75]

Presumably the 20.30 departure from Hanley to Radway Green is going then and the last one back from Crewe at 20.30 ish also going?

If they do get cut, the 20.30 from Hanley has a fairly good load. The 20.41 from Crewe is quiet, but picks up a few from Kidsgrove.

 

[SeanM1997]

Changes to 3 Crewe - Alsager - Kidsgrove - Hanley from 2 July 2023:

Monday-Friday:
Hanley-Crewe 0525 journey cut
Hanley-Crewe 0555 and 0625 journeys retimed to 0550 and 0620
Hanley-Kidsgrove 2035 journey cut
Crewe-Hanley 0636 journey retimed to 0631
Crewe-Hanley 1811 and 2041 journeys cut

Saturday:
Hanley-Crewe 0625 journey cut
Hanley-Crewe 1830 and 1930 journeys retimed to 1835 and 1935
Hanley-Kidsgrove 2035 journey cut
Crewe-Hanley 1941 journey cut

Sunday:
Hanley-Kidsgrove 2030 journey cut
Crewe-Hanley 2030 journey cut

https://nationaljourneyplanner.travelinesw.com/swe-ttb/XSLT_TTB_REQUEST?deleteAssignedStops_ttb=1&command=direct&itdLPxx_displayHeader=false&type_ttb=any&language=en&sessionID=0&requestID=0&itdLPxx_template=tableResults&coordOutputFormat=WGS84%5Bdd.ddddd%5D&outputFormat=0&std3_commonMacro=ttb&std3_contractorMacro=&line=twm%3A06003%3AA%3AH%3Ay11%3A1

 

[SeanM1997]

First Potteries changes from 2 July 2023:

Summary
3, 3A, 4, 4A, 6, 6A, 7, 7A, 11, 11B, 25 and 101 - timings changes with several first and last journeys cut

7 - reduce from half hourly to hourly, Sunday services cut
7A - reduce from half hourly to hourly, Sunday services cut
18 - Sunday services cut
101 - Sunday services cut

Individual timetables can be found by clicking route specific on Traveline and BusTimes websites:

First Potteries

Book timetable

Do you need a printable timetable? Click here for quick and convenient timetables.

nationaljourneyplanner.travelinesw.com

 

[daodao]

deleted

 

[daodao]

Revised timetables for First Potteries services from July can now be viewed on the Traveline SW site, start here. Click on 'route timetable' across the top, then enter 'first potteries' against operator.

Certain sizeable towns will have no public transport whatsoever on Sundays and bank holidays following these changes, in particular Biddulph and Leek. Stone will also lose its Sunday bus service, but it does have an all day rail service on Sundays.

 

[Martin2013]

Why on earth is the last bus from Crewe to Hanley an hour earlier on Saturdays than it is on every other day of the week?

In addition,can anyone give me any insight as to why First Potteries seem to have only reduced their level of service over recent years?

For example a decade ago the 3 seemed to run until around 2330 in both directions 7 days a week but the last journey has gradually become earlier and earlier and as of July it will be around 1930 (or 1830 from Crewe on a Saturday).

Is it the case that the market for commercial bus services is not really there in the Staffordshire area with previously withdrawn journeys reliant on local authority support or are there other factors at play?

 

[SeanM1997]

Why on earth is the last bus from Crewe to Hanley an hour earlier on Saturdays than it is on every other day of the week?

In addition,can anyone give me any insight as to why First Potteries seem to have only reduced their level of service over recent years?

For example a decade ago the 3 seemed to run until around 2330 in both directions 7 days a week but the last journey has gradually become earlier and earlier and as of July it will be around 1930 (or 1830 from Crewe on a Saturday).

Is it the case that the market for commercial bus services is not really there in the Staffordshire area with previously withdrawn journeys reliant on local authority support or are there other factors at play?

D&G said government guidelines stated councils should maintain payments at pre-Covid levels but, while Cheshire East and Derbyshire had done this, Stoke-on-Trent City Council had not. The bus operator said income had fallen by 30% since 1 April as a result.

Amjid Wazir, the Stoke-on-Trent councillor responsible for environment and enforcement, said the authority reimbursed bus operators in line with usage and "complies with the safety net level of 70% minimum payments should passenger numbers not meet this. We consulted with operators and received no challenge to the 70% proposals, We feel that this is a fair use of public money and fully in line with government guidance."

This could be the reason why First Potteries are also trimming back the services

Stoke-on-Trent probably has the worst bus service of any city of a comparable size. Its a real shame

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Why on earth is the last bus from Crewe to Hanley an hour earlier on Saturdays than it is on every other day of the week?

In addition,can anyone give me any insight as to why First Potteries seem to have only reduced their level of service over recent years?

For example a decade ago the 3 seemed to run until around 2330 in both directions 7 days a week but the last journey has gradually become earlier and earlier and as of July it will be around 1930 (or 1830 from Crewe on a Saturday).

Is it the case that the market for commercial bus services is not really there in the Staffordshire area with previously withdrawn journeys reliant on local authority support or are there other factors at play?

Without getting bogged down in details of exact timings on particular routes, things were pretty static for a good while until Mr Eggleton arrived in 2014 and did a network review. This commenced rather frequent rounds of further cuts until Covid arrived. The cuts have now recommenced. The First reduction averages something like 10% of fleet per year.

The figures are based on an original analysis of the whole PMT network not just Stoke-on-Trent or the Stoke/Newcastle urban area, way back when.
The analysis is done on a comparable basis though, so routes outside the area (eg Leek locals) continue to be counted.

An official fleet list dated March 1982 has PMT with 234 vehicles.

Date	First Potteries vehicles	comment	Others
August 2002	194	launch of 'Overground' network	43
May 2003	163	retrenchment following failure of 'Overground'	48
September 2004	154	Licence reduction following Traffic Commissioner's Inquiry	56
September 2008	157		66
September 2009	154		66
September 2010	155		68
May 2011	155		68
April 2012	152		69
September 2012	152		80
April 2013	153		81
July 2013	153		87
April 2014	159		67
July 2014	145	network review	67
September 2014	145		79
November 2014	145		83
December 2014	147		83
February 2015	146		75
March 2015	145		74
April 2015	143
May 2015	143		74
June 2015	143		55
July 2015	140		54
September 2015	124	network review	54
January 2016	124
February 2016	121		51
March 2016	121		50
July 2016	114	Keele summer reductions, otherwise 119	50
September 2016	118
January 2017	118		49
April 2017	103	network review	49
September 2017	103		49
November 2017	101		52
December 2017	100		52
April 2018	101		47
January 2019	98		47
June 2019	94	includes 2 peak extra	47
September 2019	94	includes 3 peak extra	48
January 2020	94	includes 3 peak extra	48
Covid - multiple revisions	as low as 30		as low as 19
January 2023	73		48

Does anyone see the +quote referred to on the old thread?

Anyhow
@Thin man said

These timetables beg the question - what has happened tp the BSIP (bus service improvement plan) funded enhancements referred to in the posts above? These should have started from 1st July so why are services being allowed to decline further?

I personally travel in the evening on the 25 and 6. Most trips are well loaded so they would be profitable. A cynic might say that First is withdrawing them to get money from the council to keep them going.

All is very quiet on the BSIP even though there was an updated version published in March. I don't think much of it - yet more capital spend on hardware rather than restored / improved services that people might find attractive and use. Remember the real-time display outside Stoke-on-Trent station showing 'system under test' for year after year until they finally turned it off? Part of the problem is the rules for BSIP though, no restoring of withdrawn services, got to be shiny, new and exciting instead.

Service decline is outside the hands of the council. If First (or anyone else) decides to deregister journeys, a full route or their entire network, there is nothing the council can do about it. They may be able to persuade someone else to register the removed services commercially or put them out to tender. Clue: When last reported Stoke-on-Trent part subsidised a single service (the 24), that using developer contributions.

First requires £45 per hour from any bus it runs (source: the BSIP, Local Transport Plan or report to the council on same, old prices pre recent inflationary pressures though).
There is little political support, or widespread public support, for improved public transport in Stoke-on-Trent, save where any money sourced can be used to builds roads disguised as bus improvements (BSIP, Newport Lane, £7.5m).

Remember, those that run the city that shortly will have 1 bus route running after 2000, a handful of routes on Sunday running at an hourly frequency, and most weekday routes running on 30 minute frequencies, thinks that level of use will support the operation of a tram/light rail network!

A deep cynic may say that someone at First just doesn't want to work early mornings, evenings or Sundays! Such an approach would certainly aid driver recruitment / retention.

 

[43055]

Without getting bogged down in details of exact timings on particular routes, things were pretty static for a good while until Mr Eggleton arrived in 2014 and did a network review. This commenced rather frequent rounds of further cuts until Covid arrived. The cuts have now recommenced. The First reduction averages something like 10% of fleet per year.

The figures are based on an original analysis of the whole PMT network not just Stoke-on-Trent or the Stoke/Newcastle urban area, way back when.
The analysis is done on a comparable basis though, so routes outside the area (eg Leek locals) continue to be counted.

An official fleet list dated March 1982 has PMT with 234 vehicles.

Date	First Potteries vehicles	comment	Others
August 2002	194	launch of 'Overground' network	43
May 2003	163	retrenchment following failure of 'Overground'	48
September 2004	154	Licence reduction following Traffic Commissioner's Inquiry	56
September 2008	157		66
September 2009	154		66
September 2010	155		68
May 2011	155		68
April 2012	152		69
September 2012	152		80
April 2013	153		81
July 2013	153		87
April 2014	159		67
July 2014	145	network review	67
September 2014	145		79
November 2014	145		83
December 2014	147		83
February 2015	146		75
March 2015	145		74
April 2015	143
May 2015	143		74
June 2015	143		55
July 2015	140		54
September 2015	124	network review	54
January 2016	124
February 2016	121		51
March 2016	121		50
July 2016	114	Keele summer reductions, otherwise 119	50
September 2016	118
January 2017	118		49
April 2017	103	network review	49
September 2017	103		49
November 2017	101		52
December 2017	100		52
April 2018	101		47
January 2019	98		47
June 2019	94	includes 2 peak extra	47
September 2019	94	includes 3 peak extra	48
January 2020	94	includes 3 peak extra	48
Covid - multiple revisions	as low as 30		as low as 19
January 2023	73		48

Does anyone see the +quote referred to on the old thread?

Anyhow
@Thin man said

All is very quiet on the BSIP even though there was an updated version published in March. I don't think much of it - yet more capital spend on hardware rather than restored / improved services that people might find attractive and use. Remember the real-time display outside Stoke-on-Trent station showing 'system under test' for year after year until they finally turned it off? Part of the problem is the rules for BSIP though, no restoring of withdrawn services, got to be shiny, new and exciting instead.

Service decline is outside the hands of the council. If First (or anyone else) decides to deregister journeys, a full route or their entire network, there is nothing the council can do about it. They may be able to persuade someone else to register the removed services commercially or put them out to tender. Clue: When last reported Stoke-on-Trent part subsidised a single service (the 24), that using developer contributions.

First requires £45 per hour from any bus it runs (source: the BSIP, Local Transport Plan or report to the council on same, old prices pre recent inflationary pressures though).
There is little political support, or widespread public support, for improved public transport in Stoke-on-Trent, save where any money sourced can be used to builds roads disguised as bus improvements (BSIP, Newport Lane, £7.5m).

Remember, those that run the city that shortly will have 1 bus route running after 2000, a handful of routes on Sunday running at an hourly frequency, and most weekday routes running on 30 minute frequencies, thinks that level of use will support the operation of a tram/light rail network!

A deep cynic may say that someone at First just doesn't want to work early mornings, evenings or Sundays! Such an approach would certainly aid driver recruitment / retention.

What was the 3 network reviews out of interest? I know one was the complete change to largely have what there is today. Just amazes me how much the potteries fleet has shrunk in the last 10 years but then with all these cuts am I surprised.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What was the 3 network reviews out of interest? I know one was the complete change to largely have what there is today. Just amazes me how much the potteries fleet has shrunk in the last 10 years but then with all these cuts am I surprised.

It's much more complex than that. Routes merged and such like.

Date	Buses	comment	detail
July 2014	145	network review
May 2015	143		22A withdrawn, 22 & 32A reduced (not replaced)
July 2015	140		38, 43 withdrawn (D & G replaced both)
September 2015	124	network review	9, 17, 29 withdrawn, 99 extras withdrawn, 23 reduced to blurton/newstead alternate
February 2016	121		21/23 reduced to 15 mins
July 2016	114	Keele summer reductions, otherwise 119	1 & 2 reduced
September 2016	118		27 withdrawn
April 2017	103	network review	32A withdrawn, 3, 4, 7 group, 12, 13 and 72 reduced
November 2017	101		5 & 11 reduced
December 2017	100		97 withdrawn
January 2019	98		8A withdrawn (replaced by D & G), 21/23 reduced to 20 mins
June 2019	94	includes 2 peak extra	12, 13, 18 (Leek to Haregate section) withdrawn. 12 & 13 replaced by D & G then withdrawn, 18 replaced by D & G
September 2019	94	includes 3 peak extra	32 & 101 frequency reduced. 32 replaced by D & G
September 2021	77		6 reduced to 30 minutes and interworked with 7, 8 reduced to hourly, 11 reduced to 15/30 minutes, 18 reduced to hourly, 21 and 23 reduced to 30 minutes, 25 reduced to 12 minutes
February 2022	72		3 extras withdrawn, 25 reduced to 15 minutes
April 2022	69		5 withdrawn (replaced by D & G)
September 2022		mostly not implemented	3, 11, 25 enhanced, 4 shortened, 7 & 7A reduced, 32 withdrawn (replaced by D & G), 72 withdrawn (replaced by D & G diversion)
January 2023	73		3, 11, 25 enhanced
July 2023			4 shortened, 7 & 7A reduced

The July changes will result in 2 buses less work - one on the 4 (route shortened) and one on the 7/7A (currently interworked with 6/6A).

As mentioned there will be very few evening services. As far as First Potteries are concerned:

route	ex hanley	ex far end
3	1935	1941
3A	1905	1824
4	1900	1810
4A	1830	1837
6	2000	2026
6A	1825	1833
7	1740	1819
7A	1810	1855
8	1835	1800
11	1910	1835
	2040 short to depot
11B	1740	1737
18	1835	1819
21	1900	1823
23	1920	1952
25	2300	2210
		2340 to newcastle
101	1800	1816
		1906 to stone
98	1740	1720
99	1730	1734

 

[Lewisham2221]

What was the 3 network reviews out of interest? I know one was the complete change to largely have what there is today.

That was the 2014 one.

The 2015 one was when Newcastle depot closed and the remaining routes transferred to Adderley Green.

 

[Simon75]

I regularly travel on the last 3A fro Hanley to Talke at 21 30 weekdays. Its usually a omnicity/double decker and around 20 people use it. A few on a regular basis

 

[Thin man]

New timetables are now available on the First Potteries website under the forthcoming tab. Interestingly they are now taking back over the Sunday journeys on the 23 which D&G have dropped.

 

[Martin2013]

Thanks to those who responded to my earlier question.

I've got a feeling the 2014 review might have been when Service 3 replaced Service 20 and that Autumn 2015 was when the Leighton Hospital extension got withdrawn.

I didn't know that First Potteries had ever operated the 38 Crewe to Macclesfield route.