First Potteries Discussion

[Lewisham2221]

I've got a feeling the 2014 review might have been when Service 3 replaced Service 20 and that Autumn 2015 was when the Leighton Hospital extension got withdrawn.

Correct.

I didn't know that First Potteries had ever operated the 38 Crewe to Macclesfield route.

They haven't. The 38 mentioned was the Hanley - Birches Head circular.

 

[Martin2013]

Thanks for explaining

 

[Lewisham2221]

I've got a feeling the 2014 review might have been when Service 3 replaced Service 20 and that Autumn 2015 was when the Leighton Hospital extension got wiwithdrawn.

Apologies for quoting the same post again, but for some further detail:

2014 saw the 20/20A and 25 services combined into service 3, complete with the "new" routing via Royal Stoke University Hospital (or whatever it's called this week).

At some point between the 2014 and 2015 review, the former 20A part of the service was renumbered 3A (putting an end to much confusion). The Keele end of the 3A was then extended to Madeley during the daytime.
Edit: At some point between the 2014 and 2015 reviews, services on the Talke Pits (former 20A) branch of the 3 route were extended from Keele to Madeley during the daytime.

2015 review/depot merger saw the Leighton Hospital section dropped. I think this is also when the Madeley extension was dropped, but I'm not quite sure on that one.

At some point - certainly no later than the April 2017 changes, but I'm pretty certain it was more likely to be one of the 2016 changes - the Keele to Hanley section was split off and reverted to operating as service 25.

Edit: The Talke Pits services (former 20A) were eventually renumbered 3A to avoid confusion with the Crewe services (3, formerly 20). I'm not entirely sure when this happened, but I'm certain it was no later than when the Hanley-Keele section was split off.

 

[Martin2013]

Many thanks for this interesting info.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that the Hanley to Keele extension on the 3 was dropped in early 2016.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Many thanks for this interesting info.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that the Hanley to Keele extension on the 3 was dropped in early 2016.

That sounds about right to me. Whilst it provided some convenient through journey opportunities (although I'm fairly sure it was often quicker to take multiple buses via more direct routes) the joined-up service was an absolute nightmare operationally.

 

[Martin2013]

Am guessing the main issue concerned delays to the services en route?

Seem to recall a spell when the 3 was rerouted to omit Haslington. Think it was for the first few months after the re numbering. Was that done to save time en route after it was extended to Keele?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Am guessing the main issue concerned delays to the services en route?

Seem to recall a spell when the 3 was rerouted to omit Haslington. Think it was for the first few months after the re numbering. Was that done to save time en route after it was extended to Keele?

Yes, a very long, busy service with lots of congestion hotspots along the way.

I think the re-routing was, at least partially, to do with driver concerns about the narrow section of Slaughter Hill. It wasn't popular with drivers, or Haslington residents (naturally). The problem was that Slaughter Hill was visibly narrow, with no centre line and a 30mph speed limit, and this most road users respected that fact. The alternative route used Narrow Lane. Despite its name, it isn’t obviously narrow - it's national speed limit, has a centre line and is a continuation of the B5077. Thus, where other road users were more accommodating of buses on Slaughter Hill, they were much less so on Narrow Lane. After complaints from drivers it was fairly quickly changed back to the original Slaughter Hill/Haslington routing.

Just found an old staff guide which shows the Madeley - Kidsgrove/Talke Pits services as service 3, with no mention of service 3A, so the change of numbering must have happened later, either when the Madeley service was dropped or when the Hanley-Keele section was split off.

 

[Martin2013]

Thanks for this interesting info

I am familiar with Slaughter Hill and Narrow Lane. A few years ago I was on a 3 that diverted via the latter route and largely bypassed Haslington due to part of Crewe Road being closed. Have also heard tales about Slaughter Hill becoming congested when two buses have tried to pass each other at the same time.

I've got a feeling the 3A renumbering occured in either late 2017 or early-mid 2018. Remember when I visited Stoke in Summer 2017 seeing a decker on Service 3 and given that these can't be used on the Crewe to Hanley route I assume it was the Talke Pits to Hanley service instead.

Other than the 3 were there any other examples of First Potteries making temporary alterations to their timetables at the start of the pandemic which ended up becoming permanent? I know that with the 3 the arrangement with the last journey from Crewe being 20.40ish and the last journey from Hanley (20.30) being truncated to Radway Green has been in place since then but no idea about other routes.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Thanks for this interesting info

I am familiar with Slaughter Hill and Narrow Lane. A few years ago I was on a 3 that diverted via the latter route and largely bypassed Haslington due to part of Crewe Road being closed. Have also heard tales about Slaughter Hill becoming congested when two buses have tried to pass each other at the same time.

Neither of then are particularly nice to drive a bus down. My personal preference is for Slaughter Hill, although, as you say, if a bus meets another vehicle (even a car) in the wrong place it can get a bit tricky.

I've got a feeling the 3A renumbering occured in either late 2017 or early-mid 2018. Remember when I visited Stoke in Summer 2017 seeing a decker on Service 3 and given that these can't be used on the Crewe to Hanley route I assume it was the Talke Pits to Hanley service instead.

I stand corrected Incidentally, this is another reason why the joined up service didn't really work. Newcastle depot had started to receive double deckers to relieve the overcrowding on service 25. The new service automatically meant that at least 50% of services needed to be single decked due to the low bridge at Kidsgrove on the Crewe section. In reality, far less than 50% of Keele services ended up with double deckers; the buses worked the 3 from (Madeley) Keele to Kidsgrove (via Hanley), where they became the 4A to Hanley (via Talke, Chesterton, Newcastle), then the 4 Hanley to Audley (via Newcastle and Chesterton), then the whole lot in reverse back to Keele. Once a double decker left Keele, it wasn't back there for another 5 hours.

Other than the 3 were there any other examples of First Potteries making temporary alterations to their timetables at the start of the pandemic which ended up becoming permanent? I know that with the 3 the arrangement with the last journey from Crewe being 20.40ish and the last journey from Hanley (20.30) being truncated to Radway Green has been in place since then but no idea about other routes.

Definitely service 18 (Hanley - Leek) - was every 20 minutes pre-covid. Dropped to hourly during the pandemic and has remained so ever since, barring a brief spell where it operated every 30 minutes during the AM and PM peaks.

Service 11 also lost anything even vaguely resembling an evening service, although it recently gained a couple of later (not late) journeys, but I think these are removed again from the new timetable.

Apart from that, most services recovered to at least a Saturday timetable, with various tweaks/additions to early morning, peak and evening services. It's hard to properly keep track of though.

 

[Martin2013]

Once again thanks ever so much for explaining.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Thanks to those who responded to my earlier question.

I've got a feeling the 2014 review might have been when Service 3 replaced Service 20 and that Autumn 2015 was when the Leighton Hospital extension got withdrawn.

I didn't know that First Potteries had ever operated the 38 Crewe to Macclesfield route.

If you're referring to my list, that'll be the 38 to Birches Head, not the Cheshire variety.
Yes, the 20 became the 3 as part of the 2014 review.
6 September 2015 was when the Leighton Hospital extension was withdrawn, along with the Madeley extension (from Keele) at the other end of the route.
10 January 2016 the 3 became Hanley to Crewe.
15 April 2018 is the first showing the 3A.

Covid reductions (excluding withdrawals)
Service 6/6A remains every 15 minutes instead of every 10 (4 buses saved). That was reduced for the school holidays in summer 2021, goodness don't the kids get long holidays nowadays!
Service 8 reduced to hourly (1 bus saved)
Service 18, as mentioned (2 buses saved).
21/23 reduced to every 30 minutes each from every 20 minutes (3 buses saved).
Service 25 is currently every 12 minutes (15 in vacations) instead of every 10 (2 buses saved).

Service 3 does not have a timing point at Haslington for the timetable commencing 22 July 2014 (the network review date). It does have one for the preceding 20 timetable (6 October 2013) and for the 3 timetable revision dated 30 November 2014.

 

[SeanM1997]

Looks like First Potteries route 4 will no longer serve Audley Village but instead terminate at Audley Roundabout

Full changes coming in on 2 July 2023:

Service Changes from 2 July 2023

We'll be making some changes to our services from Sunday 2 July; we continually review our services to reflect how people are using them. A summary of the changes can be found below. New timetables can be viewed here & you can see our new network map here.

www.firstbus.co.uk

 

[PaulWC]

I didn't know that First Potteries had ever operated the 38 Crewe to Macclesfield route.

PMT operated it on under contract on Sundays around 1987, as well as a couple of the Macclesfield locals.

 

[Martin2013]

PMT operated it on under contract on Sundays around 1987, as well as a couple of the Macclesfield locals.

Thanks for this interesting info

 

[Thin man]

Top transport minister announces £30m plan to transform city's bus services

Richard Holden was in the city last week to meet with bosses from First Bus as well as council officials and local MPs

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

Transport minister Richard Holden has announced £30 million plans he says will transform Stoke-on-Trent's bus services. He recently met with bosses from First Bus, as well as city council officials and MPs, to discuss changes after the government ploughed millions of pounds into improving bus services in the city.

He said Stoke-on-Trent had received one of the largest amounts of government cash of anywhere in the country - and that local MPs have been pressing ministers on the issues people face with getting about.

Mr Holden said: “Stoke-on-Trent got one of the biggest bus service improvement plan settlements in the entire country, over £30 million.

Given the recent First Potteries announcements on service cuts a slightly ironic article has apoeared on Stoke Sentinel website (link above) telling us about the bus improvements the Bus Service Imorovement Plan) will deliver. When will the councillors stop talking about this and actually deliver on their promises

 

[SeanM1997]

Top transport minister announces £30m plan to transform city's bus services

Richard Holden was in the city last week to meet with bosses from First Bus as well as council officials and local MPs

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

Given the recent First Potteries announcements on service cuts a slightly ironic article has apoeared on Stoke Sentinel website (link above) telling us about the bus improvements the Bus Service Imorovement Plan) will deliver. When will the councillors stop talking about this and actually deliver on their promises

I don't think blaming Councillors for a commercial decision is the right direction

Based on other areas which have received BSIP funding, I suspect First are cutting services and then hoping for a subsidy on those routes again to relaunch them in September (ish) time. BSIP funding can now be used to subsidise existing routes and states enhancement to evening services are a priority

 

[Thin man]

The problem being once you take the services away and relaunch them with a gap you have lost a lot of your potential passengers who have found alternatives in the meantime.
Also whereas you cannot blame councillors/ government for First's decision one does wonder why the timescales have slipped from the councils report from March which says all should be up and running by the 1st July.

 

[James101]

BSIP funding can now be used to subsidise existing routes and states enhancement to evening services are a priority

Reading the press release from First it is now the case that the 98, 99 & Sunday 23 will now be subsidised, which I imagine will take a chunk out of the BSIP Budget.

Deeply concerning that working 10 years the 98/99 corridor has gone from every 10 minutes with Porthill shorts and competition from Bakers/D&G to needing subsidy to sustain a daytime only service.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Reading the press release from First it is now the case that the 98, 99 & Sunday 23 will now be subsidised, which I imagine will take a chunk out of the BSIP Budget.

Deeply concerning that working 10 years the 98/99 corridor has gone from every 10 minutes with Porthill shorts and competition from Bakers/D&G to needing subsidy to sustain a daytime only service.

Simples. The service, when frequent and all-day, was attractive. Now it is infrequent and operates for a shorter period of the day, so it is at least less attractive or probably wholly unattractive. People vote with their feet leaving the truly desperate or particularly keen to travel by bus.

I saw little in the Stoke-on-Trent BSIP which will attract passengers in any numbers. Most frequencies to remain the same (30 minutes), some new services at 30 minutes frequency, a token effort at evening and Sunday services.

Cheaper day tickets will benefit those currently travelling (and paying) but it doesn't matter how cheap the fares are if the bus doesn't run where you want, when you want. No point having a (cheap) bus to work if you can't get home again. Or if you can do this weeks shifts by bus but next weeks require an alternative. Might as well stick with the alternative.

Variations have been submitted for the 7/A, 23 98/99, all to commence alongside the existing changes. I guess the 23 is the Sunday service (replacing D & G) but the other two are revisions on top of the existing revisions.

 

[SeanM1997]

Variations have been submitted for the 7/A, 23 98/99, all to commence alongside the existing changes. I guess the 23 is the Sunday service (replacing D & G) but the other two are revisions on top of the existing revisions.

D&G's website says 23 is going back to First Potteries which would explain that latest variation:

D&G Bus

dgbus.co.uk

From 25th June, service 23 on Sunday and Bank Holidays will be operated by First Potteries to a revised timetable.

First Potteries' website now says 98/99

There are no changes to these services, which are now financially supported by Stoke-on-Trent City Council.

Service Changes from 2 July 2023

We'll be making some changes to our services from Sunday 2 July; we continually review our services to reflect how people are using them. A summary of the changes can be found below. New timetables can be viewed here & you can see our new network map here.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Means the variation is probably to cancel the previous changes

Not sure about route 7/7A but Staffordshire County Council are providing some subsidies for changes to the D&G route 1A on the back of First cutting the 4 in Audley, so perhaps are doing something with the 7/7A too

 

[Redmike]

So First Potteries spend over a year branding a good chunk of their fleet in Mainline branding and then remove Audley from the route so we will now have 20 buses with branding for a place they no longer serve.

First Potteries 63118 (SK63KGN)

Wright Streetlite ‘The mainline’ Ex First Manchester

www.flickr.com

 

[SeveerYeliab]

So First Potteries spend over a year branding a good chunk of their fleet in Mainline branding and then remove Audley from the route so we will now have 20 buses with branding for a place they no longer serve.

First Potteries 63118 (SK63KGN)

Wright Streetlite ‘The mainline’ Ex First Manchester

www.flickr.com

I mean you can't base your commercial network decisions on the fact that some stickers on the back of your bus say Audley

 

[Redmike]

Agreed but it says a lot for the waste of money on branding in this case if it needs changing at all 12 months later.

 

[SeanM1997]

So First Potteries spend over a year branding a good chunk of their fleet in Mainline branding and then remove Audley from the route so we will now have 20 buses with branding for a place they no longer serve.

First Potteries 63118 (SK63KGN)

Wright Streetlite ‘The mainline’ Ex First Manchester

www.flickr.com

The mainline buses are used for Alsager/Crewe but are not on there - you could probably fit that name over Audley with relative ease

Do First Potteries solely have a depot in Adderley Green or are there outstations too? The first Crewe-Hanley service surely doesn't park in Adderley Green overnight as that's a long dead run

 

[Lewisham2221]

The mainline buses are used for Alsager/Crewe but are not on there - you could probably fit that name over Audley with relative ease

Do First Potteries solely have a depot in Adderley Green or are there outstations too? The first Crewe-Hanley service surely doesn't park in Adderley Green overnight as that's a long dead run

Half of them have got adverts covering the rear branding anyway.

There is an outstation near Newcastle which operates the 22, 98, 99 and some trips on the 37.

Pre-covid there was also an outstation at Crewe, with about half a dozen buses parking at the D&G depot overnight. That arrangement was discontinued during the pandemic related service reductions.

I believe there's also a duty which operates dead to Stafford in the mornings.

 

[SeanM1997]

Half of them have got adverts covering the rear branding anyway.

There is an outstation near Newcastle which operates the 22, 98, 99 and some trips on the 37.

Pre-covid there was also an outstation at Crewe, with about half a dozen buses parking at the D&G depot overnight. That arrangement was discontinued during the pandemic related service reductions.

I believe there's also a duty which operates dead to Stafford in the mornings.

I don't see D&G letting First use its depot in the future - not with First launching the 6 (Crewe-Leighton Hospital) in competition against D&Gs 12, 31 and 42 services between the areas

From 2 July, both the first 3 and first 6 will start at Crewe - surely it would be in their interest to do something to avoid the 45 minute dead runs every day

 

[RELL6L]

I hadn't initially realised how bad these cuts are and how diabolical the services are now.
The 4 has been chopped between Chesterton and Audley - a 30-minute service. Yes D & G still run to Audley, hourly via a different route, not via Chesterton.
Buses to Biddulph now just hourly.
No service beyond about 7.30 from the city centre out to Burlsem, Tunstall and Kidsgrove.
The Leek service just hourly (not these changes I know but terrible).
The 98/99 supported - I used these not that long ago and they were rammed.
Death by a thousand cuts, each time chop out one or two buses, makes the service worse, lack of passengers.
A disgrace - both on First and the city.

 

[daodao]

Buses to Biddulph now just hourly.

The Leek service just hourly (not these changes I know but terrible).

With these changes, for both Leek and Biddulph:

• D&G now offer a more frequent service to Hanley via an alternative route, but not evenings or Sundays
• They will no longer served by First at all on Sundays and bank holidays, but D&G are now going to provided limited services [updated 19:20, 23/6/23]

A disgrace - both on First and the city.

That is a matter of opinion. First is a commercial company and can't afford to run unremunerative services on an ongoing basis. The local authorities (Staffordshire County as well as Stoke City) are cash-strapped and can't afford to fleece council taxpayers for bus subsidies in politically marginal areas.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

With these changes, for both Leek and Biddulph:

• D&G now offer a more frequent service to Hanley via an alternative route, but not evenings or Sundays
• They no longer have any public transport at all on Sundays and bank holidays

That is a matter of opinion. First is a commercial company and can't afford to run unremunerative services on an ongoing basis. The local authorities (Staffordshire County as well as Stoke City) are cash-strapped and can't afford to fleece council taxpayers for bus subsidies in politically marginal areas.

The word on the street (well The Sentinel) is that the 4 is well used, running full and standing, with 'Not in Service' on the blind and so on. It would be useful if First were to justify their decision (and public statements) with some numbers. Just how poorly used is it? I'm sure there will have been discussions with the relevant councils where there will have been some numbers passed about but those are not in the public domain.

The Audley to Chesterton section currently has First service 4 buses 0640 to 1805 at roughly 30 minute intervals. The D & G service 1, which operates Wood Lane to Newcastle but in the opposite direction (so not serving Chesterton, A34 etc) runs 0914 to 1724 at hourly intervals from Wood Lane and 0715 to 1822 from Audley itself. Hardly a satisfactory alternative.

After the network review in 2014 First service 4 ran 0505 to 1808 every 20 minutes then hourly to 2300.

After the service 6 arrives into Hanley bus station at 2055, First will have just three buses on the road in the evenings, all on the 25. D & G just has the one run on the 24 from Norton at 2052 to Trentham then back to depot at 2317.

 

[SeanM1997]

The word on the street (well The Sentinel) is that the 4 is well used, running full and standing, with 'Not in Service' on the blind and so on. It would be useful if First were to justify their decision (and public statements) with some numbers. Just how poorly used is it? I'm sure there will have been discussions with the relevant councils where there will have been some numbers passed about but those are not in the public domain.

The Audley to Chesterton section currently has First service 4 buses 0640 to 1805 at roughly 30 minute intervals. The D & G service 1, which operates Wood Lane to Newcastle but in the opposite direction (so not serving Chesterton, A34 etc) runs 0914 to 1724 at hourly intervals from Wood Lane and 0715 to 1822 from Audley itself. Hardly a satisfactory alternative.

After the network review in 2014 First service 4 ran 0505 to 1808 every 20 minutes then hourly to 2300.

After the 1855 service 6 arrives into Hanley bus station, First will have just three buses on the road in the evenings, all on the 25.

And the 3 - last Hanley 1935, Crewe 1941 too