• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Potteries Discussion

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,025
Here in Bristol there is one route where the last journey is currently earlier an hour earlier on Saturday than on Sunday. On the same service the last journey terminates at that town centre's bus station on Monday to Friday but extends to a housing estate on Sundays. However, both issues are being rectified from April. I'd really be interested to explore what the AI software does and how much influence it directly has over scheduling decisions.
Once the last two journeys from Hanley reach Crewe, do they overnight in Crewe somewhere or just run light back down the motorway to Adderley Green?

Also if anyone is able to answer I'd be interested to find out, what are the main passenger flows on the 3, assuming there are not many passengers who do the whole route? Am I right in thinking its mainly Crewe to Alsager and Kidsgrove to Hanley?
The buses return to the Potteries, presumably Adderley Green but there is a piece of tarmac with a fence round at Chesterton (outstation would be overstating the level of facilities!). There was a period where they used the D & G premises at Crewe, and before that of course an actual depot at Crewe.

The AI is 'groundbreaking'. It is set to 'revolutionise services' for customers. It will 'generate optimal timetables'. It will 'enhance the customer experience', 'improve punctuality' and 'the efficiency of its (Firsts) services'. As reported by others it produces output which a sensible person then needs to refine, amend, possibly re-run the process multiple times and finally confirm. How much manual intervention is taking place, or whether First have sacked all their schedulers on the alter of efficiency and 'the computer says so' is another matter.

Here is the Coach and Bus Week article. There was also a blog by Roger French. See the First bus thread for more discussion.

First Bus futureproofs with AI tech​


First Bus has announced what it says is a ‘groundbreaking’ partnership with an artificial intelligence (AI) technology firm to revolutionise services for its customers following a successful roll-out in West Yorkshire and the West of England.

It has formalised a new three-year partnership with Prospective.io, an AI company whose software can automatically generate optimal timetables, schedules and real time fleet instructions. The new deal represents an investment of at least £4.5m in the AI technology, with the intention of transforming its customer offering and encourage more people to travel by bus by enhancing the customer experience, improving punctuality and efficiency of its services across the UK.

First says the software will enable it to improve the reliability of timetables and shift patterns, using AI to predict traffic conditions and peak running times to help ensure services run on time. It will also allow full timetables to be created or adjusted and buses to be scheduled in minutes – a process that Prospective says would typically take days to complete.

The partners say that the new system will mean that local teams can be more agile with frequent, subtle changes to ensure timetables remain accurate throughout the year – all of which will assist First in its aims to improve its overall customer experience. First said that trials in a number of cities across the country, led to a significant enhancement in service reliability while simultaneously reducing fleet operating costs and emissions through efficiencies, and that passengers have experienced improved service quality with the punctuality of services on trial routes having jumped over 20% in many cases.

Additionally, Prospective says its software can be used to identify where bus priority interventions such as parking enforcement and restrictions, bus lanes, bus gates, priority signals and traffic removal would have the biggest impact on travel times, which can help local authorities prioritise where to target investments.

Chief Commercial Officer for First Bus Simon Pearson said: “We’re excited to roll out Prospective’s network planning and scheduling software across our UK bus operations and know that it will benefit both customers and colleagues alike. We are always working hard to bring our customers the best possible experience, ensuring that our buses are as efficient and punctual as possible.

“We’re not only looking to drive improvements for our existing customers, but to make bus an affordable, more reliable and attractive part of everyone’s everyday transport mix. The results we’ve achieved in West Yorkshire and the West of England have been incredible in such a short space of time, but we’re only scratching the surface of its potential. We’re excited to roll out this software and see the benefits it brings to our customers.”

CEO of Prospective Pete Ferguson said: “We’re delighted to be rolling out our platform across First Bus’ UK operations. The FlowOS platform will support the delivery of more reliable and convenient public transport services and help grow public transport use in the UK. First Bus has been central to the development of Prospective’s AI software for the public transport market – supporting us throughout the development, testing and refinement of software for bus service planning.

“We’re grateful for First Bus’ support, creativity and commitment to improving public transport across the UK and are proud of our growing partnership.”

Scottish experience

First Glasgow has already adopted the data-led approach using AI software to optimise its network, and says it has seen punctuality and reliability improve by 16% since it began to pilot the technology during August and September. Commercial Director for First Bus Scotland Graeme Macfarlan said: “We want to provide our customers with a service that is reliable, consistent and, most importantly, on time. With the increase in congestion in recent years throughout Glasgow, we understood the importance of building timetables that fit with the current live road conditions, so our customers know when their bus will arrive.

“The adjustments we are making to the timetables will achieve that while allowing us to maximise the effectiveness of the number of buses we have running in the city to serve as many people as possible. It also further highlights the need for local authority investment in bus priority measures to overcome issues which are outside the control of bus operators, such as congestion. By doing so, it will help provide a better, more efficient public transport service in the city.”

Looking at Bustimes.org, tracking vehicle 47520, the time from Crewe to Adderley Green is 34 minutes. Considerably less than running in service at 60 minutes Crewe to Hanley then 15 minutes up to Adderley Green. So, for this specific route, a potentially worthwhile saving.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

G760XRE

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2022
Messages
62
Location
Stoke-on-trent
I've got the tender specs. PDF below with the timetables for those who are interested.

Lot A - Route 6, 1 trip from Hanley to Longton at 07:15
Lot B (Mon-Fri) & Lot C (Saturday) - Route 11 Evenings Hourly
Lot D - Route 23 Sundays hourly to Blurton (Existing 23 tender)
Lot E - Route 23 hourly Sundays to Newstead interworked with route 8 hourly to Ball Green (replacing existing 23 tender)
Lot F - Route 26 and 50 running the exact same as they are now.
Lot G - Route 26 running from Park Hall - Hanley hourly. Mon-Fri & Route 50 running Hanley - Lightwood Star and Garter Road every 70 minutes.
Lot H (Mon-Fri) & Lot K (Saturday) - Route 36 running evenings half hourly from Kidsgrove to Hanley via route 3. Some extensions to Meir Square via route 6
Lot J (Mon-Fri) & Lot L (Saturday) - Route 36 running evenings hourly from Kidsgrove to Hanley via route 3. Some extensions to Meir Square via route 6. Route 36A running hourly from Kidsgrove to Hanley with extensions to Meir Tesco via 6A route.
Does anyone know who has been awarded the various tenders for the phase 1 BSIP? According to the tender specs some are due to start a week today.
 

G760XRE

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2022
Messages
62
Location
Stoke-on-trent
Does anyone know who has been awarded the various tenders for the phase 1 BSIP? According to the tender specs some are due to start a week today.
In answer to my own question, Stoke City Council have publicised an article announcing who has been awarded the phase 1 tenders. Likely commencement date is 15th April accordingto the article.

 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,025
In answer to my own question, Stoke City Council have publicised an article announcing who has been awarded the phase 1 tenders. Likely commencement date is 15th April accordingto the article.

The D & G thread has 29 April for that single early am journey on the 6. Ah, I see your comment has been edited from the one I received as an email.
6 Hanley - Longton

From 29th April a new journey on service 6 will commence running from Hanley to Longton at 0715 Monday to Friday. This is funded by Stoke-on-Trent City Council through the Bus Service Improvement Plan.

All other journeys on service 6 continue to be operated by First Potteries.

 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,905
35933/34/35/36 have now joined their former York sisters (35932/37/38) and entered service at Adderely Green
With this most of the E400s have now left the potteries with 33828 being the only one remaining.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,768
Why have so many ex york examples transferred over to the potteries?

Are the constellation buses so poorly unreliable they need to borrow extras?
 

Ancelljb

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2020
Messages
75
Location
Portsmouth
Why have so many ex york examples transferred over to the potteries?

Are the constellation buses so poorly unreliable they need to borrow extras?
They have replaced the E400s which have moved to Halifax to standardise the fleets (as summarised in post #216).
 

Travelmonkey

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2023
Messages
181
Location
The Midlands
With this most of the E400s have now left the potteries with 33828 being the only one remaining.
Seems a shame they've gone as have the Geminis' met a friend over in Newcastle for lunch the other day was slightly disappointed both my 101s were E200MMCs I was hoping for one of the streetdecks.

I notice there is a few former Eclipse? Buses from down south in a temp livery on the route too.
 

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,905
Seems a shame they've gone as have the Geminis' met a friend over in Newcastle for lunch the other day was slightly disappointed both my 101s were E200MMCs I was hoping for one of the streetdecks.

I notice there is a few former Eclipse? Buses from down south in a temp livery on the route too.
Seems to be mix every day so far this week on the number of decker's on the 101. Yes the purple E200 MMC's are the former Eclipse ones which only 1 has been repainted so far.
 

Martin2012

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
661
I see that the timetable for the new supported 36 service is up.

Back when the service provision at this time was previously provided as part of Service 3 to and from Crewe, would the Hanley to Kidsgrove part of the route have been the most heavily utilised section with Kidsgrove to Crewe seeing minimal usage?
 

SeanM1997

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2016
Messages
385
I see that the timetable for the new supported 36 service is up.

Back when the service provision at this time was previously provided as part of Service 3 to and from Crewe, would the Hanley to Kidsgrove part of the route have been the most heavily utilised section with Kidsgrove to Crewe seeing minimal usage?
Looks like the first southbound is 36 will come empty from Crewe... which to me seems very wasteful


From the 28th April, we'll be introducing more weekend and evening services, as well as a new cross-city service. These new services have been financially supported by Stoke-on-Trent City Council. Click here to find out more.


Service 8

A Sunday service is introduced running between Hanley and Ball Green, departing from Hanley at 09:50 to 16:50 hourly and in the opposite direction from Ball Green at 10:15 to 16:15 hourly.

Service 11

An evening service is introduced running hourly between Hanley and Longton, Monday to Friday and Saturday, with the last journey being 23:10 from Hanley to Longton and 22:38 from Longton back to Hanley.

Service 23

A new Sunday service will run between Hanley, Newstead & Wimborne Avenue, departing from Hanley at 09:40, hourly to 16:40 and departing from Newstead from 09:15 to 16:15 hourly.

Services 36 and 36A

A brand new cross-city evening service that will run from Meir Square (36) Meir Park (36A) to Kidsgrove via Hanley and will also serve Longton, Burslem and Tunstall. This service will operate Monday to Friday and Saturday evenings.

Please see below for new timetables:

https://www.firstbus.co.uk/potteries/plan-journey/timetables?date=2024-…
 
Last edited:

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,573
Location
Western Part of the UK
Looks like the first southbound is 36 will come empty from Crewe... which to me seems very wasteful

Looking at Firsts open data via bustimes (The basics are to add ?detailed=1 onto the end of the url, the more in depth stuff I won't explain as it gets complex for average users)
Mon-Fri, the 19:50 from Kidsgrove will run off the 18:30 4A which will terminate at Kidsgrove Town hall at 19:26, the driver will then loop around to the estate and sit there for 20 minutes.
Saturday the 20:00 from Kidsgrove will run off the 18:39 4A which gets to Hanley at 19:30, the bus then seems to run dead to Kidsgrove.
 

Travelmonkey

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2023
Messages
181
Location
The Midlands
Seems to be mix every day so far this week on the number of decker's on the 101. Yes the purple E200 MMC's are the former Eclipse ones which only 1 has been repainted so far.
Luckily I've not been stung with a streetlite on that route yet, although the ones they use to Crewe seem far too undersized, that or I have a habit of picking the wrong travel times.
 

SeanM1997

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2016
Messages
385
Luckily I've not been stung with a streetlite on that route yet, although the ones they use to Crewe seem far too undersized, that or I have a habit of picking the wrong travel times.
I hope the 3 goes back to a 20 minute frequency to Crewe but doesn't seem imminent which is a shame as its a corridor which can't handle deckers so needs higher frequency on lower capacity buses
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
1,484
Location
Staffordshire
I hope the 3 goes back to a 20 minute frequency to Crewe but doesn't seem imminent which is a shame as its a corridor which can't handle deckers so needs higher frequency on lower capacity buses
There's absolutely no need for the 3 to be every 20 minutes to Crewe, there really isn't sufficient demand to warrant that frequency between Kidsgrove and Crewe (excepting perhaps the odd journey here and there). Additional capacity on the Hanley to Kidsgrove section (shared with the 3A) would be very welcome though.
 

Simon75

On Moderation
Joined
25 May 2016
Messages
896
I hope the 3 goes back to a 20 minute frequency to Crewe but doesn't seem imminent which is a shame as its a corridor which can't handle deckers so needs higher frequency on lower capacity buses
Only way you could have double deckers on the 3 is rerouting via Butt Lane.
But there isn't the demand these days
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
1,484
Location
Staffordshire
Only way you could have double deckers on the 3 is rerouting via Butt Lane.
But there isn't the demand these days
And doing a significant amount of tree surgery on the Alsager to Haslington stretch. As you say though, there simply isn't the demand to justify double deckers (or increased frequency) on that section.
 

daodao

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2016
Messages
2,953
Location
Dunham/Bowdon
And doing a significant amount of tree surgery on the Alsager to Haslington stretch. As you say though, there simply isn't the demand to justify double deckers (or increased frequency) on that section.
Double decker buses aren't now justified on any route serving the current truncated county of Cheshire, and the number of low bridges throughout the Potteries makes use of such buses there problematic - the former Potteries Electric Traction Company only had single deck cars for that reason.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,768
Do we know if the street decks that have been transferred from york will be put into the constellation branding to match the rest of the double decker fleet?
 

stevenedin

Member
Joined
26 Jul 2021
Messages
1,169
Location
Edinburgh
Do we know if the street decks that have been transferred from york will be put into the constellation branding to match the rest of the double decker fleet?
There was a pic flying around somewhere of them being painted into the new electric livery I think but I can’t remember where I saw it.

EDIT - I think it was Olive Grove Depot so not sure about Potteries.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,025
I hope the 3 goes back to a 20 minute frequency to Crewe but doesn't seem imminent which is a shame as its a corridor which can't handle deckers so needs higher frequency on lower capacity buses

Only way you could have double deckers on the 3 is rerouting via Butt Lane.
The 320 (now route 3) ran with deckers for years, using the direct route between Kidsgrove to Red Bull Crossroads. Bristol VR's then a batch of new buses in what I think was the inter-urban livery (grey with diagonal stripes), one of whom is a member on this forum @G760XRE. The bridge at Kidsgrove is 13' 9" which requires a lower than normal vehicle height but not a true low-bridge decker with a sunken gangway.
 

Lewisham2221

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2005
Messages
1,484
Location
Staffordshire
The 320 (now route 3) ran with deckers for years, using the direct route between Kidsgrove to Red Bull Crossroads. Bristol VR's then a batch of new buses in what I think was the inter-urban livery (grey with diagonal stripes), one of whom is a member on this forum @G760XRE. The bridge at Kidsgrove is 13' 9" which requires a lower than normal vehicle height but not a true low-bridge decker with a sunken gangway.
Does anybody make a 13' 8" double decker for the UK market nowadays? And does it come with a roof mounted chainsaw? And fuel economy anywhere near that of a single deck vehicle?
 

G760XRE

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2022
Messages
62
Location
Stoke-on-trent
The 320 (now route 3) ran with deckers for years, using the direct route between Kidsgrove to Red Bull Crossroads. Bristol VR's then a batch of new buses in what I think was the inter-urban livery (grey with diagonal stripes), one of whom is a member on this forum @G760XRE. The bridge at Kidsgrove is 13' 9" which requires a lower than normal vehicle height but not a true low-bridge decker with a sunken gangway.
Would be amazing to go back to those days. The batch of Olympians with dual purpose seats (756 to 761) on the old 320 route were something else. Felt like luxury as a passenger travelling between Hanley and Crewe, which I did many times with 760 being my favourite. Sadly I don't think we'll ever get vehicles like these, especially deckers, on that route again.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,768
How is the potteries fleet looking these days?

I know more street lites are also being added into the fleet to help phase out older single buses and have a more common fleet
 

Top