GWR PAYG

[swt_passenger]

I may have read slightly more into the Guardian report of Labour intentions than was meant, but there is an implication that contactless fares would be widespread, although 'more and more of the country' could mean a large number of isolated areas. Which would not seem especially national and could lead to a widespread extension of the current problems where people mistakenly travel from London to Bristol on some sort of London PAYG card, and are surprised to be charged a real fare en route. Presumably if they have not tapped out in London they also get an incomplete journey fare.

See: https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-rail-travel-and-will-it-make-tickets-cheaper

'Things can be improved, Labour says, as contactless tap-in and tap-out payments extend through more and more of the country, opening up the possibility of a Transport for London-style system, where fares are streamlined and automatically capped or refunded.'

Yes, it’s definitely the sort of vague wording that can be read two ways.

 

[Haywain]

could lead to a widespread extension of the current problems where people mistakenly travel from London to Bristol on some sort of London PAYG card, and are surprised to be charged a real fare en route.

Is this a significant problem?

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Is this a significant problem?

A guard seemed to think that she had met it often enough to be worth mentioning, but did not give any statistics. She recommended an ITSO card instead, but this is probably irrelevant to PAYG.

I do recall then looking at the wording of a website relating to some London PAYG system and wondering if the reference to validity on National Rail trains could be misinterpreted as meaning the whole national railway network. Not everyone is a pedant like me who would check that carefully. After all the whole point of PAYG is to make busy lives easier, so in London crowds rush through the terminals listening for the beep, whereas here in Bristol OAPs like me take a careful stance in front of the terminal and watch carefully to see exactly what the message is so as to commit it to memory. This does not cause delay because I have never seen anyone else using a PAYG card, although guards seem to be familiar so presumably someone else must.

 

[fandroid]

Me when I want a Travelcard not on a weekend.

Why "not on a weekend". My regular purchase of an outboundary Travelcard on a Smartcard is for Friday travel (& bought online).

I favour it because it's a single mode eticket useable where TfL's current policy is to ignore e-Tickets on smartphones. It also doesn't need a battery and isn't dependent on firing up an app for inspections or ticket gates.

(*last para added later)

 

[Haywain]

Why "not on a weekend". My regular purchase of an outboundary Travelcard on a Smartcard is for Friday travel (& bought online).

Because GTR Super Off Peak Travelcards are not fulfilled to smartcards?

 

[lachlan]

Chippenham to Bristol Parkway is only valid via Bath, but it can be quicker doubling back at Swindon. One benefit of this expanded system is presumably it's now valid to travel either route with a tap card - and I would imagine it will charge you the cheaper rate unless you tap in/out at Swindon on the way

 

[fandroid]

Because GTR Super Off Peak Travelcards are not fulfilled to smartcards?

Good reason. I'm pushed back to smartphone tickets for SWR's equivalents - Evening Out and Sunday Out tickets.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Yes, it’s definitely the sort of vague wording that can be read two ways.

Although I expect that my original interpretation, 'nationwide' was probably what the journalist thought it meant, and probably what Labour think it means.

The paper version of the Guardian article also included praise for the success of LNER, for the taxpayer, not the customer. In fact PAYG is also a single leg pricing system, currently modulated by the continuing existence of the off-peak return tickets. Take those out and you have the LNER system, and PAYG getting the best fare means adding up all the single legs to get the one and only fare, the main change being that you are encouraged not to enquire about the cost in advance, just open your wallet so that the government can extract the 'full fruits of their labour' (Former Clause IV). (I assume that the 70 min train variation ticket would not find its way into PAYG.)

(https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-rail-travel-and-will-it-make-tickets-cheaper)


PS: Saw someone else using a PAYG card at Sea Mills last Friday. He said it was the first time and he had been persuaded by the adverts. I gave him a short briefing on the perils and things to watch. Like me he was out cycling, which seems to be the main target market, because for open jaw and single journeys PAYG can save money, also good for indeterminate plans. Just need more cycle spaces to match the target market.

 

[sleepy_hollow]

Found another PAYG system flaw last Monday, full details in trip report: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-beach-svb-return-cancelled-outbound.268471/

In essence I tapped in at Sea Mills for the 0904, the train was cancelled, I tapped out, got 'Journey Ended' from the validator, cycled direct to Rockhampton, and then to Severn Beach returning on the 1701. The following morning this showed correctly on my PAYG journey list, with a £0 tapped out at same station and the £0.65 single from SVB to SML in the evening. Not charged as normal for amounts under £1.00, which are deferred. The morning after that I received a charged £1.30 email and my journey list had been autocompleted to discard my tap in about 0844 and complete a journey from the 0851 to arrive at SVB using the 1004. It is not possible to amend this.

The system is appalling, it has performed as advertised, reaching the correct conclusion, then, a day later, discarded it and created an incorrect conclusion, deleting real data, and creating a fictitious journey. Real data that works as advertised should just not be discarded. PAYG increasingly resembles the Post Office Horizon system.

And of course the original tap in is presumably still in the system, which could be dreaming up some incomplete journey.

The wind being southerly I had toyed with the idea of continuing to Cam & Dursley. If I had done that would the amendment have been to a return to there, costing about £5.00 extra?





I have attempted to apply for a refund, which seemed to fail on inserting the image of the PAYG journey, submitted a complaint and written a letter to management.


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Separate Comments on Extended Area

With the area being extended to Swindon and the Kemble line now it means there's now journeys that can be made via multiple routes that have different fares - I don't see how the system would be able to know what route you took from Cheltenham to Swindon and I assume it would charge the lower 'via Stroud' fare by default?
View attachment 157009

It becomes yet more problematic if you show the whole table, including the columns to the right. I was toying with the idea of travelling from Sea Mills to Kemble. It appears that there is an Off Peak PAYG single from SML to KEM, but no anytime PAYG single, unlike Weston, which has only an anytime PAYG single. So if you tap in during the undefined peak time you will be charged not 13.00 but 46.80 day single. I used the PAYG fare checker this morning, and 46.80 is the answer it gave. So it seems that the validator area has been extended but PAYG not extended in any meaningful sense. I cannot see why the fare checker claims that the PAYG fare is 12.50 cheaper than the offpeak day single, it appears to be nearly twice as much. It sounds as though the checker thinks it has offered the 13.00 fare and compared it to the 25.50 off peak single, whilst displaying the 46.80 fare. I shall avoid going near Kemble.



As a minor amusement the online list defining the PAYG area omits Freshford, although it is shown, unnamed on the map on the same page. The downloadable PDF map does name it.

Found another PAYG system flaw last Monday, full details in trip report: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...n-beach-svb-return-cancelled-outbound.268471/

In essence I tapped in at Sea Mills for the 0904, the train was cancelled, I tapped out, got 'Journey Ended' from the validator, cycled direct to Rockhampton, and then to Severn Beach returning on the 1701. The following morning this showed correctly on my PAYG journey list, with a £0 tapped out at same station and the £0.65 single from SVB to SML in the evening. Not charged as normal for amounts under £1.00, which are deferred. The morning after that I received a charged £1.30 email and my journey list had been autocompleted to discard my tap in about 0844 and complete a journey from the 0851 to arrive at SVB using the 1004. It is not possible to amend this.

The system is appalling, it has performed as advertised, reaching the correct conclusion, then, a day later, discarded it and created an incorrect conclusion, deleting real data, and creating a fictitious journey. Real data that works as advertised should just not be discarded. PAYG increasingly resembles the Post Office Horizon system.

And of course the original tap in is presumably still in the system, which could be dreaming up some incomplete journey.

The wind being southerly I had toyed with the idea of continuing to Cam & Dursley. If I had done that would the amendment have been to a return to there, costing about £5.00 extra?





I have attempted to apply for a refund, which seemed to fail on inserting the image of the PAYG journey, submitted a complaint and written a letter to management.


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RESOLUTION OF SAME STATION TAP OUT FAILURE

Higher Authority has resolved the matter, crediting my PAYG account with £0.65 and thanking me for my help in identifying the problem and helping to improve the system. The PAYG team, who were aware of the problem, have been reminded to liaise with the supplier about it. My journey history now shows only the evening journey, the same station in-out in the morning has disappeared without trace. The ability to make real data disappear from user view is quite Horizon-like.



It is not an obscure problem. In the conurbations for which PAYG is designed there will usually be other ways of making the journey, so cancellations will result in people taking another route to destination and then reappearing at the destination in the evening. For example, at SML, you can walk 100 metres to the Park & Ride bus stop and take that into town.