HS2 rail extension to Leeds set to be scrapped

[David Bullock]

removing level crossings sounds like a speed increase maybe?

I’ve seen 140mph running mentioned in the Northern Echo article on HS2 from this morning.

The other interventions mentioned are digital signalling (which was already announced), power supply upgrades (which are already happening) and “getting rid of pinch points” (assuming this means York station throat, was announced than canned a while back).

Reopening the leamside line is the only intervention which would meaningfully release capacity north of York, so expect to be stuck at 6tph or worse on that line for the next 20 years I guess.

EXCLUSIVE: Boris Johnson tells The Northern Echo how rail plans will impact North East

Boris Johnson is facing rising anger over the Government’s plans to scrap the eastern leg of HS2 as well as Northern Powerhouse Rail, with an…

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk

 

[jon0844]

Bearing in mind that HS2 trains are "classic compatible"

That's one reason why ditching parts of HS2 to upgrade the existing network means losing out on some of the benefits of a new modern-day, high-capacity line. If we were expanding on HS2 and looking at HS3 etc, we'd have been able to introduce wider, taller, trains with many benefits in terms of internal layouts, storage space and comfort.

I don't think HS2 ever made much effort to mention this, so the general public probably have no idea. At most they've noticed it feels more spacious on a class 374 Eurostar train, but maybe never realised why.

And there was me hoping that we'd have been talking about extending HS2 up to Scotland in the future, not scaling things back as much as possible and then re-announcing old shelved ideas to appease people in the north who are clearly going to be shafted by a Government that talks big.

 

[ashkeba]

Why are they keeping Birmingham to East Mids which has 125mph stretch already and canning the East Mids to Yorks which currently only has bendy strecthes with low speed limits?

Miriam Cates MP is now squirming on BBC News.

 

[A0wen]

Why are they keeping Birmingham to East Mids which has 125mph stretch already and canning the East Mids to Yorks which currently only has bendy strecthes with low speed limits?

Miriam Cates MP is now squirming on BBC News.

Presumably the benefits case for Birmingham - East Mids adds up and then using classic lines for the remainder still has a decent benefits case ?

I'm reminded of @Bald Rick's example about Wisbech where people keep banging on about the benefits case that one has, whilst quietly overlooking the fact something like 90% of the benefits could also be realised by running a second March - Cambridge service which would be at much lower cost and wouldn't need any more track to be laid etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen it suggested on Gareth Dennis's Twitter that NPR will go via the CLC, as Warrington is shown on the map.

Does this mean electrification, finally?

 

[The Planner]

Why are they keeping Birmingham to East Mids which has 125mph stretch already and canning the East Mids to Yorks which currently only has bendy strecthes with low speed limits?

Miriam Cates MP is now squirming on BBC News.

Two things. Firstly a sizeable chunk of Phase 1 around Birmingham would be redundant and its being built now. Secondly its not 125mph all the way and would still require significant interventions on a live railway.

 

[Starmill]

I've seen it suggested on Gareth Dennis's Twitter that NPR will go via the CLC, as Warrington is shown on the map.

Does this mean electrification, finally?

Are you sure? The map created by him shows the route via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level.

 

[ashkeba]

Two things. Firstly a sizeable chunk of Phase 1 around Birmingham would be redundant and its being built now. Secondly its not 125mph all the way and would still require significant interventions on a live railway.

Which bits are not, please? OpenRailwayMap makes it look like it is all 125mph between Kingsbury Jcn and Derby London Rd Jcn except maybe a section north of Willington througb junctions.

And what of phase 1 has been built north of Kingsbury? I believed that all to be phase 2.

 

[squizzler]

The backlash against the cancellation of the Eastern arm has resulted it being seen not merely as a mobility but a regional identity issue.

As the political momentum for its reinstatement builds, might now be the time to start campaigning not for the eastern arm but for the Greengauge proposal to make it part of a East Midlands to South-west HSR? As greengage point out, a Birmingham to Bristol upgrade to high speed rail would underpin the traffic on the eastern arm, making proper HSR necessary.

 

[javelin]

I've seen it suggested on Gareth Dennis's Twitter that NPR will go via the CLC, as Warrington is shown on the map.

Does this mean electrification, finally?

If it's the map I think you are referring to, that's just a "what we could of had" map based on the TfN proposals, he doesn't have the new plans.

 

[The Planner]

Which bits are not, please? OpenRailwayMap makes it look like it is all 125mph between Kingsbury Jcn and Derby London Rd Jcn except maybe a section north of Willington througb junctions.

And what of phase 1 has been built north of Kingsbury? I believed that all to be phase 2.

It is 50 through Burton, you would also need to do something with North Staffs and Stenson Junctions. Phase 1 builds the infrastructure to allow the Eastern leg to diverge, so a substantial amount of grade separation at the Delta Junction. It is 6 tracks wide there.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've seen it suggested on Gareth Dennis's Twitter that NPR will go via the CLC, as Warrington is shown on the map.

Does this mean electrification, finally?

I’m expecting a new line, to link in with HS2 at the junction with Rostherne. Otherwise the trains couldn’t get to the nee Piccadilly station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you sure? The map created by him shows the route via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level.

His map shows that as being a non-new-build section. If it's actually a new build (or repurposing of the old Widnes line) then it's misleading, but he is known for doing that - he is only really concerned about the North East anyway.

 

[Shrop]

If they really want to speed up Leeds to London, stop making every train (bar the 1A07 at 07:00) stop at at least 4 intermediate stops en route. Just have 1 train an hour that stops at Wakefield, Doncaster, Peterborough and Stevenage and make the other non-stop. Leeds - Wakefield is adequately covered by Northern and Cross Country so does not need 2 x LNER an hour IMHO, and 2 an hour from Wakefield to Doncaster should suffice.

Unfortunately it's policy to attempt to make every train all things to all people. For example, time was when you could do Plymouth to Birmingham stopping only at Exeter and Bristol. Nowadays every train stops at Newton Abbott, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway and Cheltenham. That's a lot of time consuming extra stops, not to mention the disruption of passengers moving around while you might otherwise be trying to relax on your journey. You also used to be able to reach Newport non stop from Paddington, Southampton non stop from Waterloo, Birmingham New Street from Euston stopping only at Coventry, the list goes on ...

 

[Roast Veg]

Are you sure? The map created by him shows the route via Warrington Bank Quay Low Level.

It goes pretty much straight from Edge Hill to Sankey along the M62 and A57, then Warrington Low Level, then out to Rostherne.

 

[Ianno87]

I've seen it suggested on Gareth Dennis's Twitter that NPR will go via the CLC, as Warrington is shown on the map.

Does this mean electrification, finally?

Pretty sure Gareth's map is basically made up, and will bear little if any resemblance to the actual alignment.

 

[Shrop]

Lots of talk about line upgrades, but why focus on ECML? The MML has far more population along it, ie Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield, compare these with the MUCH smaller centres of Peterborough, Grantham and Doncaster! So focusing on MML would make a lot more sense. Ah, but Government didn't plan for that, because yet again they lacked foresight, even though many people have been telling them about using MML for many years

 

[Starmill]

Pretty sure Gareth's map is basically made up, and will bear little if any resemblance to the actual alignment.

I think this is closer to the truth.

Lots of talk about line upgrades, but why focus on ECML?

Is there any official focus on the ECML? I haven't spotted any, only forum posts because it's an old favourite of discussion.

 

[class26]

Two things. Firstly a sizeable chunk of Phase 1 around Birmingham would be redundant and its being built now. Secondly its not 125mph all the way and would still require significant interventions on a live railway.

It`s also very congested

 

[Shrop]

Is there any official focus on the ECML? I haven't spotted any, only forum posts because it's an old favourite of discussion.

There may not be any official focus on ECML it just seems to be a goto option. For MML some sections would need bypassing due to their tight corners, but in general it would serve the country far better. That said, many of us wanted HS2 near to MML from the word go almost 20 years ago, but the weird imperative to go close to Heathrow won the day even knowing how much it would upset masses in the Chilterns. How sorry that the Heathrow imperative was then downgraded and yet the Chiltern route still went ahead

 

[Ianno87]

but the weird imperative to go close to Heathrow won the day even knowing how much it would upset masses in the Chilterns.

No, the imperative was to have a reasonably direct route from London to Birmingham. Which, by definition, goes through the Chilterns and sort-of near Heathrow.

 

[ainsworth74]

For discussion of the actual IRP itself please see this thread. For discussion of the HS2 specific elements of the IRP announcement please see this thread.

As there is now some concrete information the Forum Staff have decided to draw a line under this thread but we are quite happy for someone to start a fresh thread to discuss their own ideas and speculation for relevant topics. But sometimes it's good to start a fresh when the situation has changed substantially from when a thread started