Merseyrail penalty - have cctv proof but appeal is getting rejected

[Haywain]

There are fewer than 10 of them across the network so that wouldn't be hard to do.

A lot harder than not needing to do it.

 

[Skie]

A lot harder than not needing to do it.

The TVMs might have a sim-card built in that does some limited call-back and fault reporting.

 

[185]

Just checking the Lime Street Merseyrail Concourse - their Scheidt & Bachmann ticket machine was still on tonight at 2330 at the close of play, very much in use.

 

[Wallsendmag]

From what I know of S&B TVMs thay'll need to be online, they definately need to be online to upload sales data

 

[gray1404]

Walking through Lime Street this morning at 07.50 the shutters inside the main station concourse before the escalators down to Merseyrail were closed and I sign directing people to use the lift. I've never seen this before. Surely the lift could not have been the only point of access.

 

[robbeech]

Walking through Lime Street this morning at 07.50 the shutters inside the main station concourse before the escalators down to Merseyrail were closed and I sign directing people to use the lift. I've never seen this before. Surely the lift could not have been the only point of access.

Is that the fare dodgers’ lift?

 

[Djgr]

Walking through Lime Street this morning at 07.50 the shutters inside the main station concourse before the escalators down to Merseyrail were closed and I sign directing people to use the lift. I've never seen this before. Surely the lift could not have been the only point of access.

Last time I was there, they were working on the escalators from the main concourse down to the subway to the low level station and that is why that entrance was shut.

However, you could still access the subway to the low level station by leaving the main station and using the outside entrance (in addition to using the lift.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that the fare dodgers’ lift?

That's the one.

 

[gray1404]

Is that the fare dodgers’ lift?

Yes. Arrow was pointing to the right so yes.

That lift is also used by those of us holding valid tickets want to get up/down as soon as possible.

 

[robbeech]

I only referred to it as such due to such a thing being mentioned earlier in the thread, I wasn’t sure where it was.

My point is that for someone coming from there, expecting to use ticketing facilities in the lower level part being directed to the lift which (potentially without their knowledge) bypasses such a facility can put them in an awkward position of not having a ticket, nor having the ability to buy one without a notable delay.

 

[Djgr]

I only referred to it as such due to such a thing being mentioned earlier in the thread, I wasn’t sure where it was.

My point is that for someone coming from there, expecting to use ticketing facilities in the lower level part being directed to the lift which (potentially without their knowledge) bypasses such a facility can put them in an awkward position of not having a ticket, nor having the ability to buy one without a notable delay.

I think this is a highly theoretical concern (like most of the discussions about Merseyrail ticketing on this forum).

There is nothing stopping such people purchasing required tickets at the high level ticket office or from the myriad machines on the concourse.

Yes. Arrow was pointing to the right so yes.

That lift is also used by those of us with valid tickets want to get up/down to as soon as possible.

And of course that is what the vast majority of users of the lift are.

But never underestimate the level of low level "racism" directed at Liverpudlians.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this is a highly theoretical concern (like most of the discussions about Merseyrail ticketing on this forum).

There is nothing stopping such people purchasing required tickets at the high level ticket office or from the myriad machines on the concourse.

Indeed. You'd have to try pretty hard (or have sight issues) to get to that lift without seeing the main booking office and TVMs. Though that said some people would assume a metro's ticketing to be separate, so a Merseyrail yellow TVM right next to the lift would be worthwhile.

But never underestimate the level of low level "racism" directed at Liverpudlians.

You know my origin, right?

It's also silly not to recognise that in big cities there's a lot of opportunistic fare-dodging. The term could as easily have been applied to the old stairs down from Manchester Piccadilly 13/14, for instance, or the old lifts at Birmingham New St. It doesn't reflect on Scousers, it reflects on fare-dodgers (and the poor design that resulted in that lift existing without any sort of checks on those who use it - I don't *think* it's ever had any sort of kiosk there or anything - I don't entirely understand why it doesn't have a remote monitored wide gate on it).

I personally use it because it's by far the quickest way to/from the platforms when already holding a ticket (if you don't use the lifts at both ends, you walk further going Lime St-Central through tunnels than you would at street level). But a lot of fare dodgers absolutely do use it, the queue to pay PFs at the RPIs when they do blockade it tells you enough. Also how disappointed the RPIs appear when an able bodied adult without a pram or similar produces a valid ticket

 

[PupCuff]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's absolutely places where I sympathise with passengers who've been written up, out the door queue at a ticket office, all machines bar one down etc. But Liverpool Lime Street isn't one of those places, it's got two separate ticket offices, one upstairs and one down, both with good opening hours, more than enough TVMs dotted about the place to account for a couple being out of use; if ticket selling facilities aren't good enough to let a penalty fare stand here at one of the UK's major stations, then where are they?

Fare evasion is a big problem and a lot of that is opportunistic pay when challenged kind of thing, which is exactly what a robust penalty fare system tries to address.

 

[507021]

You know my origin, right?

Considering how you recently accused the city of Liverpool of having a "victim mentality", I don't think you're in a position to be playing that card. I'm from Liverpool and while I don't live there any more either, I'm proud of my heritage and those who still live there who are working hard to improve the city and wider city region. I really can't abide by people who are from somewhere only when it suits them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering how you recently accused the city of Liverpool of having a "victim mentality", I don't think you're in a position to be playing that card.

I stand by that. I've also lived in Manchester, and find it very much doesn't, and I think that contributes heavily to its comparative success against Liverpool. I also take the view that if the North West's major and minor cities collaborated better and were more outward-looking the region would do much better for itself - you don't hear of people from Wolves and Cov resenting Birmingham being bigger and stronger, instead they grow themselves based on that success.

That reply was an example of it - because I was calling the lift a "fare dodger's lift" because a lot of fare dodgers use it (and they do, you can tell that easily enough when an RPI sting is done on it) I was somehow insulting Liverpool, which is just silly. Things like that exist at other stations outside Liverpool too, and would get the same name, indeed I'm almost certain I've referred to "fare dodgers' lifts" in the past with regard to the old New St layout, and there is I think a "fare dodger's gate" out of one of the Manchester Victoria platforms, though they are quite big on hiding RPIs near that to pounce.

 

[507021]

I stand by that. I've also lived in Manchester, and find it very much doesn't, and I think that contributes heavily to its comparative success against Liverpool. I also take the view that if the North West's major and minor cities collaborated better and were more outward-looking the region would do much better for itself - you don't hear of people from Wolves and Cov resenting Birmingham being bigger and stronger, instead they grow themselves based on that success.

That reply was an example of it - because I was calling the lift a "fare dodger's lift" because a lot of fare dodgers use it (and they do, you can tell that easily enough when an RPI sting is done on it) I was somehow insulting Liverpool, which is just silly. Things like that exist at other stations outside Liverpool too, and would get the same name, indeed I'm almost certain I've referred to "fare dodgers' lifts" in the past with regard to the old New St layout, and there is I think a "fare dodger's gate" out of one of the Manchester Victoria platforms, though they are quite big on hiding RPIs near that to pounce.

I'm aware of what that lift is sometimes used for, I'm just sick to the back teeth of people playing the "I'm Scouse" card when it suits them.

 

[CarrotPie]

I'm aware of what that lift is sometimes used for, I'm just sick to the back teeth of people playing the "I'm Scouse" card when it suits them.

Would you prefer it if they played it when it didn't suit them? They whole point of cards is to play them when it suits you...

 

[WesternLancer]

I note the OP has not been back for a few days as the thread drifts away from practical advice on their next best steps....

 

[Djgr]

Walking through Lime Street this morning at 07.50 the shutters inside the main station concourse before the escalators down to Merseyrail were closed and I sign directing people to use the lift. I've never seen this before. Surely the lift could not have been the only point of access.

I was there yesterday and there are two signs, one pointing to the lift and the other equally prominent pointing to the low level ticket office.

On a separate note, I see that Liverpool Central toilets have reopened and am awaiting the Merseyrail haters finding fault!

 

[fandroid]

There are fewer than 10 of them across the network so that wouldn't be hard to do.

I would also assume that they're visited daily to remove cash and to load ticket blanks

 

[Haywain]

I would also assume that they're visited daily to remove cash and to load ticket blanks

Well, that won't be necessary for card only machines and ticket stock on rolls can last a surprisingly long time (and can he monitored remotely).

 

[Red Rover]

I'm almost entirely certain the Merseyrail TVMs are offline, so any updates/reporting from them is all down to a person with a laptop. It's why they don't do ToD, they were rolled out on the cheap.

No, its because they won't pay S&B for the software update, they have to be online for card payments, as ticket office should be open for all Merseyrail services why should they have TOD? I thought we were moving away from CCST? Cake and eat it spring to mind? Maybe the relevant TOC's should give Merseyrail the money to update the TVM's?