New Mills Central landslip - 6 week closure

[30907]

But what does that actually mean in absolute terms (numbers versus percentages)

300% of 10mm would be insignificant but 300% of 100mm would be newsworthy.

I'm no geographer, but I'm not so sure - if your drainage systems, for example, are set up for 10mm, then 30mm could still have an impact, even if it wouldn't produce spectacular photos for the media.

 

[175001]

At least give Hazel Grove a temp. service to Sheffield so that people from Marple area can drive there and park.

From Monday, some but not all diverted services are to call at Stockport and Hazel Grove.

The current 1 p/h to New Mills Central is to be retimed to incorporate SLW

 

[grumpy spotter]

I wonder if the large number of freight diversions via Romiley last week was the final straw?



MARK

Well you could be right there for sure.The downside for me is that my lineside observations/photo ops have been hit for six.Back to the gardening I guess.

 

[londonmidland]

We’re having yet more heavy rain in Derbyshire. Right now in Matlock, the rain is torrential. We’ve had rain nearly every day for months upon end, with no end in sight for low upcoming pressure system.

How much more rain can the railway take?

 

[stuu]

But what does that actually mean in absolute terms (numbers versus percentages)

300% of 10mm would be insignificant but 300% of 100mm would be newsworthy. BBC Weather are just as bad for using that.

I was looking at the government rainfall and river reports, which only give a breakdown by region. The northwest on average had 137mm of rain in February (175% of long term average), so getting towards twice as much as normal. Obviously that will vary a lot across the region, but the west side of the Pennines is fairly well known for rain, so I doubt it was one of the drier areas.

The percentage is what matters though, as our understanding of things like soil mechanics assumes that the conditions will stay broadly the same. When the weather is very different to normal over a long period then those assumptions have to be re-examined. It's why we are seeing so many landslips

 

[snowball]

Everybody knows that the north-west is a region of high rainfall, so if that increased by a high percentage, that must be a big increase in absolute terms too.

 

[Killingworth]

Everybody knows that the north-west is a region of high rainfall, so if that increased by a high percentage, that must be a big increase in absolute terms too.

It's been the wettest winter since records began in Sheffield.

 

[duffield]

It's been the wettest winter since records began in Sheffield.

I think it was reported on the local news that the entire east midlands also had the wettest ever winter, since records began.

 

[Tomnick]

Other than this on a New Mills Facebook page, there isn't any juicy photos as you wanted because traffic has been stopped on the line before it was too late.

Worth noting that there's been a significant, very noticeable dip in the Down line at that location for years – it's obviously got worse, but it looked bad before!

 

[8stewartt]

Hearing on the grapevine this has been extended to approx 14 weeks from initial closure now. Be fun for the freight getting up to the peaks at night around all the scheduled closures. At the moment everything is running via Northwich, but this closes once in 6 weeks, along with new mills south to Edgeley, which leaves the only available route as via Toton. Next week is the booked Stoke diversion week, but you cant get from Stoke to New Mills Sputh without a run round somewhere, Longsight or the bottom of the Heaton Norris branch would be an option. Be interesting to see what happens.

 

[richfoz84]

Speaking to a NR employee.. he says They don’t have the man power or even the knowledge of how to sort the problem yet.. so I’m not surprised if it’s been extended.. I think it is going to be quite a big project to sort out.

 

[swt_passenger]

Speaking to a NR employee.. he says They don’t have the man power or even the knowledge of how to sort the problem yet.. so I’m not surprised if it’s been extended.. I think it is going to be quite a big project to sort out.

That’ll presumably be why they invariably bring in specialist civil engineering contractors. Do NR ever fix major earthworks faults themselves?

 

[Nunners]

That’ll presumably be why they invariably bring in specialist civil engineering contractors. Do NR ever fix major earthworks faults themselves?

Normally they have a framework contractor for each region, e.g. for small remedial works. NR might have a project engineer but most of the work is done by the contractor and their chosen consultant

 

[swt_passenger]

Normally they have a framework contractor for each region, e.g. for small remedial works. NR might have a project engineer but most of the work is done by the contractor and their chosen consultant

That’s what I thought, from previous discussions here. It’s surprising that people still ask if NR have the staff to do significant repairs, because I think it’s been fairly clear for years that they don’t.

 

[tram21]

In the journey planner, it seems that the Rail replacement services have 35 minutes Chinley- New Mills and 30 mins New Mills- Chinley.

However, it seems the journey is only approx 15 minutes, so why do they have 35 mins to do it?!

 

[Purple Train]

In the journey planner, it seems that the Rail replacement services have 35 minutes Chinley- New Mills and 30 mins New Mills- Chinley.

However, it seems the journey is only approx 15 minutes, so why do they have 35 mins to do it?!
View attachment 155373

Padding, in case of traffic. It's fairly usual, I think; for instance, when I was on the GEML being bustituted Newbury Park-Ingatestone, the padding was such that I made the connection before the one advertised - but, in both cases, the roads were about as clear as the North Sea isn't.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Victorian infrastructure is frequently poor at best, but especially so with earthworks.

To be fair as first movers without civil engineering knowledge they did what they thought was best and given majority of structures have stood the test of time they got a lot right. Id say the bigger issue earthworks has been the poor relation in asset management for decades and chickens are coming home to roost but as you say below its largely always going to be reactive.

This winter has been spectacularly wet though and water is the main driver for most earthworks failures.

The problem is there is often very little in terms of maintenance you can do in these cases and you often need to do significant rebuilds.

 

[Kaydee]

As I live not far away, I took a walk down to the line this afternoon. The location of the slip is where the River Goyt is at its nearest to the line, maybe 20m away. About 5 years ago there was significant work on the line at this point, the work compound took over the nearby car park/playground at Hague Bar for several months (once finished NR restored the playground with good quality equipment, much to the delight of the local children, I'm sure!). The contractor Murphy has established a small compound on this car park, nothing happening today (Good Friday). The parallel road has often had similar problems, especially near Strines, where it tries to slide down into the Goyt - "single line working" or even closure is not unusual for motorists. There is recently laid ballast on the affected line, the shiny rails on the Marple side suggested that something had been along it very recently (overnight?) - was this an attempt to stabilise it?. The up line (still in use) also has its problems with a layer of large stones laid on the foot of the embankment next to the line by the road bridge at Hague Bar. This doesn't look like a quick job to fix!
As to the recent rainfall, we haven't had the deluges reported elsewhere but rarely more than two dry days at a time - but clearly the ground is full of moisture. The River Goyt is higher than normal, but it's been much worse than this in the past few years. The land slip has probably been building up medium term rather than a short term effect.

 

[Killingworth]

As I live not far away, I took a walk down to the line this afternoon. The location of the slip is where the River Goyt is at its nearest to the line, maybe 20m away. About 5 years ago there was significant work on the line at this point, the work compound took over the nearby car park/playground at Hague Bar for several months (once finished NR restored the playground with good quality equipment, much to the delight of the local children, I'm sure!). The contractor Murphy has established a small compound on this car park, nothing happening today (Good Friday). The parallel road has often had similar problems, especially near Strines, where it tries to slide down into the Goyt - "single line working" or even closure is not unusual for motorists. There is recently laid ballast on the affected line, the shiny rails on the Marple side suggested that something had been along it very recently (overnight?) - was this an attempt to stabilise it?. The up line (still in use) also has its problems with a layer of large stones laid on the foot of the embankment next to the line by the road bridge at Hague Bar. This doesn't look like a quick job to fix!
As to the recent rainfall, we haven't had the deluges reported elsewhere but rarely more than two dry days at a time - but clearly the ground is full of moisture. The River Goyt is higher than normal, but it's been much worse than this in the past few years. The land slip has probably been building up medium term rather than a short term effect.

Google and OS maps aerial views both show clean ballast in the likely area confirming the gradual slippage.

 

[175001]

The Murphy compound was there for the emergency ground investigation works which were due to be completed by the 4th of April. That of course now has been deemed irrelevant following the closure of the down line.

I suspect with the location of the slip it's going to be along the lines of Eden Brows in a timescale to fix this

 

[Class 170101]

Next week is the booked Stoke diversion week, but you cant get from Stoke to New Mills Sputh without a run round somewhere, Longsight or the bottom of the Heaton Norris branch would be an option. Be interesting to see what happens.

Sorry if I am being thick but coming up from Stoke it would then be Stockport (Down Lines), Manchester Piccadilly, Ordsall Chord, Manchester Victoria, Denton, Stockport (Up Lines this time) and then Hazel Grove?

I was looking at the government rainfall and river reports, which only give a breakdown by region. The northwest on average had 137mm of rain in February (175% of long term average), so getting towards twice as much as normal. Obviously that will vary a lot across the region, but the west side of the Pennines is fairly well known for rain, so I doubt it was one of the drier areas.

The percentage is what matters though, as our understanding of things like soil mechanics assumes that the conditions will stay broadly the same. When the weather is very different to normal over a long period then those assumptions have to be re-examined. It's why we are seeing so many landslips

But the percentage only means something in the correct context. As you now note above, 137mm is 175% of the long term average in the northwest, now that means something as where as 175% of an unknown figure doesn't mean a great deal to someone who doesn't know how much rain falls in the northwest, or indeed anywhere else if they aren't into weather, rainfall and river reports.

 

[175001]

Sunday timetable for the foreseeable is for the Manchester - Sheffield to run as booked via Marple

The return working will be diverted via Chinley, but call additionally at Hazel Grove and Stockport, with a rail replacement bus from Chinley to Piccadilly via Marple.

 

[DAN.CHAMBERS20]

Curious as to if anyone on here has any further details of the repair required. As others have said it's likely to be a big job as is quite a large embankment down to the Valley floor with poor access. Probably 10-20m

Also I think it is a hard to predict but not sure why it gets to the point of failure before doing anything about it. Needs more proactive maintenance once movement is seen. Should have plans ready to enact

 

[TheEastAnglian]

Curious as to if anyone on here has any further details of the repair required. As others have said it's likely to be a big job as is quite a large embankment down to the Valley floor with poor access. Probably 10-20m

Also I think it is a hard to predict but not sure why it gets to the point of failure before doing anything about it. Needs more proactive maintenance once movement is seen. Should have plans ready to enact

Talk at work from those that have been over it with the Pilot, NR at the moment don't know how to sort it. I've yet to drive over the section since the down line was closed. Last time I went to New Mills was about a week and a half before closure and the train was making all kinds of creaks and strains.
It gets to the point of failure, because of money. We've all seen the RMT talk about budget and maintenance cuts, we're stating to see the consequences. But I think what we are seeing is the tip of the ice berg. Something worse is going to happen. All of it sits squarely (in my eyes) at the Secretary of State's door. It is all political choices.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Talk at work from those that have been over it with the Pilot, NR at the moment don't know how to sort it. I've yet to drive over the section since the down line was closed. Last time I went to New Mills was about a week and a half before closure and the train was making all kinds of creaks and strains.
It gets to the point of failure, because of money. We've all seen the RMT talk about budget and maintenance cuts, we're stating to see the consequences. But I think what we are seeing is the tip of the ice berg. Something worse is going to happen. All of it sits squarely (in my eyes) at the Secretary of State's door. It is all political choices.

What types of maintenance that presumably had been taking place at New Mills since 1865 or whenever have ceased or been scaled back in the last few years then?

 

[northwichcat]

At least they can run to Sheffield via Stockport so the disruption is fairly minimal (does anyone use Strines? ). Marple pax may enjoy having empty trains to board!

Given there's Chester trains starting and terminating at Stockport at peak times due to the line being at maximum capacity, presumably the Stockport diversions are restricted to something like 09:30-16:00 and 19:00 onwards.

 

[Kaydee]

What types of maintenance that presumably had been taking place at New Mills since 1865 or whenever have ceased or been scaled back in the last few years then?

I mentioned in an earlie

What types of maintenance that presumably had been taking place at New Mills since 1865 or whenever have ceased or been scaled back in the last few years then?

I mentioned in my previous post that a lot of work was done at the site about 5 years ago, so Network Rail have done maintenance here in recent times.

 

[modernrail]

The north west has had 145% of average annual rainfall over the past 6 months, February was 175% above average. Elsewhere has been even more above average, with the East seeing 283% of average rainfall in February

Bloody hell. These are big numbers.

 

[TheEastAnglian]

What types of maintenance that presumably had been taking place at New Mills since 1865 or whenever have ceased or been scaled back in the last few years then?

Track walks? The line has slowly been sinking over the last 24ish months, since they chopped the trees down. It hasn't suddenly happened and they've been caught on the hop.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Track walks? The line has slowly been sinking over the last 24ish months, since they chopped the trees down. It hasn't suddenly happened and they've been caught on the hop.

I see that you are asking another question rather than providing a definitive answer. It is widely known that 'red zone' working, such as staff patrolling whilst trains are running on both lines has effectively ceased and on a line relatively busy with both passenger and freight trains it must be almost impossible to find margins in daylight.

I thought that there was far more emphasis on things like track recording coach runs and fixed sensors these days. So the monitoring continues but in a far safer fashion.

It would be great to have an answer from Network Rail.