Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[joeykins82]

London-Oxford will be wired up but I don't think a date has yet been confirmed for the Thames Valley branch lines

 

[Fincra5]

Already relieved of its shoegear there, as was expected.

There's also a few youtube videos up, primarily from around LSP and Edge Hill.

If you zoom in on that shot, you can quite clearly see the "Magical Mystery Tour" moniker crudely applied to the cab end. Found that quite hilarious, I did.

Aye that made me chortle!

 

[swt_passenger]

London-Oxford will be wired up but I don't think a date has yet been confirmed for the Thames Valley branch lines

Thames Valley branches are down for completion by Dec 2017 in the CP5 enhancement plan, the same date as the extensions from Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads to Cardiff.

They'll be about one year behind Paddington to Newbury/Oxford/Bristol Parkway, which is 'infrastructure ready for use' in Dec 2016, (and has been for a while) and 6 months behind Chippenham to Bristol Temple Meads, which is May 2017.

jcollins' assumption above about services starting May 16 seems a bit ahead of the plan, which appears to coincide with the 2017 timetable year.

 

[joeykins82]

The December 2017 date isn't confirmed yet; all of the electrification programmes are subject to change (presumably some tweaks to the delivery dates rather than sweeping changes)

It should be noted that an efficient profiling workstream is considering all electrification projects and the outcome of this workstream may result in reprofiling the delivery dates of some electrification projects.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Think you mean Feb 2016 when the current franchise ends. May 2016 should see Liverpool-Blackpool services operated by electric traction.

Not if the Blackpool date has slipped to Mar 2017.
What I meant was, units after the first 14 were up to the next franchise to worry about.

If the next Northern franchise is awarded in late 2015 and starts in Feb 2016, would it allow the option of the winning bidder agreeing a deal with Porterbrook for refurbished trains and the refurbishment starting ahead of the franchise start date?

I doubt it, unless the DfT underwrites a deal once the contract is signed.
More as-is 319s should not be difficult at short notice.
Upgrades will be for a sizeable fleet to be worthwhile.
It will be a year or more before the fleet size/spec is determined.

When will Thames Valley be ready to start taking EMUs?

Like NW wires, the Thames Valley area is supposed to be live in December 2016 (though they are currently running up to 6 months late).
FGW on its short franchise might sign up for 319s as an interim measure, but I would have thought that the 5-year award being discussed would lead to new trains soon after.

All of this is very difficult with short franchises.

 

[northwichcat]

jcollins' assumption above about services starting May 16 seems a bit ahead of the plan, which appears to coincide with the 2017 timetable year.

I said no earlier than the May 2016 timetable change based on a rough 2016 date for the first phase to be completed. The original question posed was whether another operator could take on 319s during 2015.
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Not if the Blackpool date has slipped to Mar 2017.
What I meant was, units after the first 14 were up to the next franchise to worry about.

I don't think anything official has been said about Blackpool being delayed. Although, I accept they would try to keep it quiet initially as they could make up time later on.

I doubt it, unless the DfT underwrites a deal once the contract is signed.
More as-is 319s should not be difficult at short notice.
Upgrades will be for a sizeable fleet to be worthwhile.
It will be a year or more before the fleet size/spec is determined.

Porterbrook will fund a complete refurbishment of the 319s, even if it includes re-engineered 3 car trains with corridor connectors. However, they want long term leases to be agreed first which makes refurbishment prior to the new franchise being agreed a non-viable option. With 319s Porterbrook want to go for complete new interiors, while for some other trains like 150s they just want to do enough to make them accessible and no longer dump waste on to the tracks, with things like new seats being an optional extra. With trains that are properly complaint like 172s if the TOC wants any changes to them then they would have to fund the changes.

 

[swt_passenger]

The December 2017 date isn't confirmed yet; all of the electrification programmes are subject to change (presumably some tweaks to the delivery dates rather than sweeping changes)

I took your earlier post to mean there was no date mentioned at all in the public domain, but between us we seem to have clarified that any dates are subject to confirmation anyway.

 

[Class377/5]

If the next Northern franchise is awarded in late 2015 and starts in Feb 2016, would it allow the option of the winning bidder agreeing a deal with Porterbrook for refurbished trains and the refurbishment starting ahead of the franchise start date?

When will Thames Valley be ready to start taking EMUs?

I doubt there would be time from winning a franchise and starting o get a full refurbishment project off the ground, especially if its a decent refurbishment.

Within a couple of months of the new Northern franchise starting the second batch of 319s will start to be released with first two free by June 2016.

Note there some big changes to the non Northern 319s coming soon with new toilets being fitted. 319010 didn't have this done (and neither will the second C6 unit).

 

[northwichcat]

I doubt there would be time from winning a franchise and starting o get a full refurbishment project off the ground, especially if its a decent refurbishment.

I wasn't meaning the Northern bound 319s could all undergo a full refurbishment in a few months but was meaning if there's more 319s available then Northern are able to use in 2015 then the surplus ones could start getting a refurbishment once the franchise is awarded rather than waiting until when the franchise starts.

 

[Class377/5]

I wasn't meaning the Northern bound 319s could all undergo a full refurbishment in a few months but was meaning if there's more 319s available then Northern are able to use in 2015 then the surplus ones could start getting a refurbishment once the franchise is awarded rather than waiting until when the franchise starts.

That was always my thoughts. Use the surplus of 'future' allocated units for say Blackpool to create a refurbishment pool.

 

[andytriv]

Hello, was the 319 out today? Thought I saw a First livery this afternoon between Macclesfield and Stockport as I was on the 13.20 from Euston to Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

Hello, was the 319 out today? Thought I saw a First livery this afternoon between Macclesfield and Stockport as I was on the 13.20 from Euston to Manchester.

Nothing showing at Macclesfield that would have been a working without passengers: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAC/2014/06/30/1500-1600?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt While crews having been trained on it yet so couldn't have used it in passenger service.

 

[andytriv]

Nothing showing at Macclesfield that would have been a working without passengers: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/MAC/2014/06/30/1500-1600?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt While crews having been trained on it yet so couldn't have used it in passenger service.

Just caught a glimpse out of the window of a First liveried unit passing at speed, do the 185's go that way?

 

[northwichcat]

Just caught a glimpse out of the window of a First liveried unit passing at speed, do the 185's go that way?

TPE 170s and 185s do go slightly south of Stockport on the mainline before going towards Hazel Grove for services to/from Sheffield.

 

[andytriv]

TPE 170s and 185s do go slightly south of Stockport on the mainline before going towards Hazel Grove for services to/from Sheffield.

Might well have been that but we seemed to be going to fast to be that close to the station though.

 

[mtbox]

yes there is ( and i did this on purpose ) - as per Local Instructions in the sectional appendix, 2 4 car trains cannot share the same platform at MIA !! The platforms will accomadate an 8 car train however !! Looks like Muz beat me to it however !!

Are u sure they take 2 4 car 350s?

I think you have interpreted the instruction wrongly as a 4 car unit CAN be signalled permissively on top of another 4 car unit.
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I think you have interpreted the instruction wrongly as a 4 car unit CAN be signalled permissively on top of another 4 car unit.

Forgot to add not platform 1 though, temporarily restricted to 6 vehicles

 

[childwallblues]

no wires in to Liverpool yet on the route they come in with 57 that why there dragged. unless they go via WCML we will see as that the only wires into Liverpool atm

Wires currently not live in Allerton Depot

 

[Class 170101]

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/more-electric-trains-in-the-north-likely-hammond

More electric trains in the north likely – Hammond

More electric trains are “likely” to be introduced into the north of England if the government’s ongoing commercial negotiations are successful, rail minister Stephen Hammond has stated.

In answer to a question in Parliament from Labour’s North Hull MP Diana Johnson about the rolling stock being shifted from TransPennine Express (TPE) to Chiltern Railways, Hammond said: “The Department has identified a potential solution. We hope to be able to make a formal announcement later this summer.”

He did not divulge details, but said the DfT is in “commercial negotiations” to develop a solution that is “likely to see the introduction of more electric trains into the north, in addition to the 14 Class 319s it has already announced, to release even more diesel units”.

He also added that the original decision to move the nine TPE class 170s to Chiltern was made by their owner, not the Department.

With regards to the current TPE and Northern Rail franchise consultations, Hammond was asked by Conservative MP Martin Vickers whether the DfT would specify that the highest quality of rolling stock would maintained on services out of his Cleethorpes constituency.

In response, the minister said that when the consultation finishes, “we will consider all the points made and look to specify the necessary rolling stock requirements in the invitation to tender to ensure that the best services are provided for people across the north”.

The issue of remapping routes on TPE and Northern was also brought up by Nottingham South MP Lilian Greenwood, the shadow transport secretary. She asked if the minister could rule out potential allegations of a “backroom deal” and let people know what is planned for their area.

Hammond stressed that the live consultation is indeed a “consultation”, which does not finish until mid-August. “And there is no question of any backroom deal.”

He also stated that he recognised the strong campaign being run by the Scunthorpe Telegraph and the Grimsby Telegraph in respect of their desire to maintain TPE services through to Manchester.

However, he did stated that within the consultation paragraph 7.7 states “bidders will be required to include plans, either in their core proposition or as an option, which would enable the withdrawal of all Pacer units from Northern services”.

The minister stated the he recognises the campaign of the two newspapers, but “as I have said to those newspapers, which faithfully reported my words, that this is a consultation and no decision has yet been made”.

BBC Parliament also aired this last night (recorded) as Transport Questions.

 

[Domh245]

Might it be something to do with limited number of 365s being released by TSGN? From the other thread, Class377/5 alluded to about half of the fleet being cascaded away, replaced by 377s, most likely the /5s from Thameslink. That would be 20 365s that could be used for services in the north, 10 to allow the 350/4s to go back to LM and another 10 for some other TPE route?

 

[Class 170101]

The 350s I don't think are in this calculation and will stay where they are. The 365s whilst quick off the mark I doubt are as quick off the mark as 350s. Secondly don't forget 365s are 100mph units. 350/4s can do 110mph.

I would say whats more likely based on your comments about 365s are 158s to TPE from Northern with Northern gaining 365s to use between Liverpool and Manchester / Wigan but I didn't think they were being released for a couple of years yet.

 

[Manchester77]

Might it be something to do with limited number of 365s being released by TSGN? From the other thread, Class377/5 alluded to about half of the fleet being cascaded away, replaced by 377s, most likely the /5s from Thameslink. That would be 20 365s that could be used for services in the north, 10 to allow the 350/4s to go back to LM and another 10 for some other TPE route?

365s aren't going to be displaced in time to allow a DMU cascade to cover for the 170/3s from TPE.

The 350s I don't think are in this calculation and will stay where they are. The 365s whilst quick off the mark I doubt are as quick off the mark as 350s. Secondly don't forget 365s are 100mph units. 350/4s can do 110mph.

I would say whats more likely based on your comments about 365s are 158s to TPE from Northern with Northern gaining 365s to use between Liverpool and Manchester / Wigan but I didn't think they were being released for a couple of years yet.

Quite I think that they're talking about northern getting extra 319s cascaded from 387 introduction.

 

[Class377/5]

365s aren't going to be displaced in time to allow a DMU cascade to cover for the 170/3s from TPE.

Quite I think that they're talking about northern getting extra 319s cascaded from 387 introduction.

The 365 get displaced in 2017, far to late to help TPE.

There are still some 21x 319 (6x 377/2 released + 29x 387 cascade - 14x for Northern) that haven't yet been announced as having a home yet with all displaced from Thameslink by around August 2015. 'Just in time' to help TPE.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The "solution" is most likely more 319s, but more than 14 are not needed until end-2016 anyway.
Another possibility is a bigger shift-round with Northern getting 30-40 319s and cascading their 323s/321s elsewhere.

 

[physics34]

dont forget there will be 14 more 'diesel coaches needed for southern.....around or abouts dec 2016.

 

[Class377/5]

dont forget there will be 14 more 'diesel coaches needed for southern.....around or abouts dec 2016.

Not any more as Govia state they extra diesels will come at some point where there is spares with the 2016 date abandoned in the wining bid.

 

[Manchester77]

Not any more as Govia state they extra diesels will come at some point where there is spares with the 2016 date abandoned in the wining bid.

That looks like they could come from Scotland then which makes more sense than sprinters from the north.

 

[physics34]

Not any more as Govia state they extra diesels will come at some point where there is spares with the 2016 date abandoned in the wining bid.

still hoping uckfield line platforms get increased to 10 car by dec 2016 (its in the pipeline).. if they do then southern may not specifically need 170s... (SDO required currently as you know mate)

 

[Jonny]

Could they use Class 319s elsewhere - like an ECML North-of-York stopper?

 

[IanXC]

Could they use Class 319s elsewhere - like an ECML North-of-York stopper?

The only service you could use them on without changing service pattens is the Chathill-Newcastle and return, but that is literally 2 journeys.

If you felt brave enough to take the political flak you could split TP North services to Newcastle at York, but I'm jot sure that's a realistic option!

 

[Class377/5]

still hoping uckfield line platforms get increased to 10 car by dec 2016 (its in the pipeline).. if they do then southern may not specifically need 170s... (SDO required currently as you know mate)

Having the platform lengthened isn't the issue as you they don't actually have the rolling stock to lengthen the trains in the first place.