Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[AlterEgo]

Lots of things are different in Europe. I Holland coffee shops allow people to buy and smoke certain substances. Do that here and you might get arrested. So the world is full of cultural differences.

Just because it's culturally acceptable in one country doesn't mean it is in another or people even want it to be.

Of course not, but that doesn't stop us examining why that might be, especially where the benefits may lead to cost savings or increased accessibility for disabled people.

People (as in, a whole people) review and modify culture organically over time. That's why drink driving is now not just a crime but a social evil.

Perhaps it might be beneficial to look at the role of the driver, and the ways in which disabled assistance is provided. Interesting that you don't seem to want to do that.

Note that I'm talking about 20 years down the line, not quick win improvements that can be made tomorrow.

 

[AlterEgo]

London Overground had up to August 2013 and from its inception in 2007 a total of 'ZERO' days lost to ANY industrial action on its network, even though on one other occasion we nearly did but that didnt occur.

Even people on here get the impression the RMT is on strike every other day so they need their tails cutting, i had took two days strike action in 7 years at London Overground and since i have been with ATW i have had none. Yet the perception exists that we are a strike happy union, if that was the case i would be on strike on average once every other week over some trivial matter.

The perception exists because a report your union jointly bankrolled with the TSSA and ASLEF came straight out and said this:

6.5 Industrial relations in the privatised railway
There is a tabloid canard that national publicly-owned industries equate to a ‘licence to strike’, with more industrial strife and the public at the ransom of muscular unions. In reality industrial relations on the railways were better under British Rail, and there has been a considerable worsening of industrial relations since privatisation. In the seventeen years from 1979 to 1996 there were only eight strikes; whereas there are now a number of serious pay disputes every year.

https://www.tssa.org.uk/download.cfm?docid=59A2B770-7FE3-48A1-AB9F167E21BF1590

I don't agree with union busting, but it's about the ability to stop the job - that power - that the government wants to break.

It's a similar principle to nuclear weapons - on a smaller scale of course!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Could be they're on strike, or an incident somewhere has left staff in the wrong place. On the former point, I'd expect that reducing the ability of the RMT to shut down the network is one of the motivations for DOO.

Whilst on the latter point if the TOC didn't insist on having such tight turn arounds for staff they might find that disruption didnt automatically lead to staff being in the wrong place all the time.

 

[pompeyfan]

I'm going to shoot myself in the foot here and say I'm terrible at passenger assistance. We get sent emails on our phones with head code, start of journey, finish of journey and type of assistance required, this is all well and good providing I actually see the message, if I'm walking through the train I'll generally only look at my work phone if it's either a) quiet, or b) we're running slow / we come to a stop somewhere other than a junction.

When the passenger is boarded I'll make a note on my schedule card, but to be honest, I usually dispatch in regards to CIS screens, I'll only use my card if I can't see the CIS, which means I could probably end up missing a passsrnger that requires assistance. I'll admit this does make me look bad, but I bet I'm not the only one out there to operate like this.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm a passenger not staff but every single occasion when on train staff fall below the level of attention that might reasonably be expected weakens the case for their retention.

Andrew

 

[Bookd]

London Overground had up to August 2013 and from its inception in 2007 a total of 'ZERO' days lost to ANY industrial action on its network, even though on one other occasion we nearly did but that didnt occur.

Even people on here get the impression the RMT is on strike every other day so they need their tails cutting, i had took two days strike action in 7 years at London Overground and since i have been with ATW i have had none. Yet the perception exists that we are a strike happy union, if that was the case i would be on strike on average once every other week over some trivial matter.

Strike happy? I read in today's paper that strike ballots have been called at Merseyrail and Northern - until recently there seemed to be strikes threatened nearly every week on the Underground (although admittedly they were usually called off at the last minute). This is how the impression is created.

 

[radamfi]

You also have to take into account disruption caused by cancelled strikes. That is not insignificant.

 

[furnessvale]

You also have to take into account disruption caused by cancelled strikes. That is not insignificant.

Very much so, particularly with freight.

The very threat of a strike sends freight customers scurrying towards the road hauliers who wave 12 month contracts under their noses.

Once they have moved, it is the devil's own job to get them back as the stats for freight moved by road and rail demonstrate.

 

[wfrank]

What are the current costs of all the trains currently cancelled because no guard is available?

Why isnt there a guard available in the first place?

Becauser they are on strike or awaydaying.

 

[theironroad]

I'm going to shoot myself in the foot here and say I'm terrible at passenger assistance. We get sent emails on our phones with head code, start of journey, finish of journey and type of assistance required, this is all well and good providing I actually see the message, if I'm walking through the train I'll generally only look at my work phone if it's either a) quiet, or b) we're running slow / we come to a stop somewhere other than a junction.

When the passenger is boarded I'll make a note on my schedule card, but to be honest, I usually dispatch in regards to CIS screens, I'll only use my card if I can't see the CIS, which means I could probably end up missing a passsrnger that requires assistance. I'll admit this does make me look bad, but I bet I'm not the only one out there to operate like this.

That's honest and it's good you've identified why you might miss assistance request.

More importantly, what are you going to do prevent missing someone again? You could then share this with your colleagues or let whoever does your briefing days know so they can share it widely.

Off the top of my head, how about clipping some sort of tag or ribbon to your whistle lanyard to remind you when you despatch that someone is on board. Once the assistance is taken care of, take the tag etc off the lanyard.

Forgetting you've got someone on board and over carrying them because you dispatch from the CIS screen and didn't look at your schedule card isn't good for the person who's day may just have been messed up.

Yes, were all human and forget stuff, but how do we change to stop it happening again?

 

[theironroad]

Becauser they are on strike or awaydaying.

More likely because the TOC wants to run payroll on a shoestring and doesn't have enough slack in the system to deal with holidays, sickness, training courses, people leaving. Build some resilience into the rosters would be more useful .

 

[Barn]

More likely because the TOC wants to run payroll on a shoestring and doesn't have enough slack in the system to deal with holidays, sickness, training courses, people leaving. Build some resilience into the rosters would be more useful .

A minimum staff establishment was part of the rejected Aslef deal. One of the lower profile but most useful clauses I thought.

 

[pompeyfan]

That's honest and it's good you've identified why you might miss assistance request.

More importantly, what are you going to do prevent missing someone again? You could then share this with your colleagues or let whoever does your briefing days know so they can share it widely.

Off the top of my head, how about clipping some sort of tag or ribbon to your whistle lanyard to remind you when you despatch that someone is on board. Once the assistance is taken care of, take the tag etc off the lanyard.

Forgetting you've got someone on board and over carrying them because you dispatch from the CIS screen and didn't look at your schedule card isn't good for the person who's day may just have been messed up.

Yes, were all human and forget stuff, but how do we change to stop it happening again?

I completely get that my error could lead to a huge inconvenience (at minimum) to someone that requires assistance. I like the idea of a reminder on whistle/lanyard, I might try and implement it, I have a feeling though that if I'd forget I have a assistance passenger on board, that a visual reminder may or may not help. Still. Only way to find out is to try it.

In regards to the emails, that's slightly trickier, depending on time/route/calling pattern it may be at least an hour before I sit down from joining the train, before I remember to look at my phone. It doesn't help that all Guards are on the same email server, so stuff that is relevant to someone 100 miles away gets sent to everyone. All assistance requests get sent to every guard as well.

 

[455driver]

Shhh you cant say that, its always the nasty militant staffs fault, you cant blame the poor hard done by Management on here, jeez!

Anyway must go as I am booked to go on strike at 2 oclock (for the 4th time this week)!

Oh our lot (GWR) decided to tighten up our diagrams last December with the result that arriving just 2 minutes (yes 2 minutes) late can result in you being late on your legally required break so do you-
a/ forego part of your break so your next train is not delayed (knowing full well that if anything goes wrong they will use the fact you didnt get your full break as a reason to blame you for it), or
b/ make the second train late and endure the wrath of the passengers as you stroll along the platform after the train should have departed.

Tight diagramming is normal but they have taken it to a whole new level.

Edited to add 'late' after (2 minutes).

 

[455driver]

I'm going to shoot myself in the foot here and say I'm terrible at passenger assistance. We get sent emails on our phones with head code, start of journey, finish of journey and type of assistance required, this is all well and good providing I actually see the message, if I'm walking through the train I'll generally only look at my work phone if it's either a) quiet, or b) we're running slow / we come to a stop somewhere other than a junction.

When the passenger is boarded I'll make a note on my schedule card, but to be honest, I usually dispatch in regards to CIS screens, I'll only use my card if I can't see the CIS, which means I could probably end up missing a passsrnger that requires assistance. I'll admit this does make me look bad, but I bet I'm not the only one out there to operate like this.

I dont want to sound patronising but it sounds to me as if you need to revise your method of working, maybe just a couple of small changes to get everything included.

 

[455driver]

Strike happy? I read in today's paper that strike ballots have been called at Merseyrail and Northern -

Why is that?
What has changed to cause the staff to feel the need to vote for a strike?

until recently there seemed to be strikes threatened nearly every week on the Underground (although admittedly they were usually called off at the last minute). This is how the impression is created.

Threats of a strike is not the same as calling a strike is it?

 

[455driver]

Becauser they are on strike or awaydaying.

How many strikes have taken place over the last 10 years and what was the reason forthe strike action at-
East Coast
West Coast
FGW?GWR
SWT
Southern
etc
etc
You really dont have a clue do you!

 

[Carlisle]

How many strikes have taken place over the last 10 years and what was the reason forthe strike action at-
East Coast
West Coast
FGW?GWR
SWT
Southern
etc
etc
You really dont have a clue do you!

Yes thats mostly because the vast majority of TOCs deliberately avoided challenging the unions position on anything concerning DOO rather than a utopian period of industrial relations

 

[DT611]

I don't agree with union busting, but it's about the ability to stop the job - that power - that the government wants to break.

No it's workers being able to try and get themselves a better deal or stand up to political agendas lead by loose cannons that the government wish to break. they don't care about the job being stopped as such or about the public as we have all witnessed with their engineering of and meddling in the the southern rail dispute.

Yes thats mostly because the vast majority of TOCs deliberately avoided challenging the unions position on anything concerning DOO rather than a utopian period of industrial relations

Why would they bother challenging the position of staff on a backward method of working from a believed to be in decline railway that it's likely the companies don't really want to implement?

 

[pompeyfan]

I dont want to sound patronising but it sounds to me as if you need to revise your method of working, maybe just a couple of small changes to get everything included.

Possibly, but I'm not sure what exactly to change other than paying more attention to duty card/work phone.

 

[LowLevel]

Possibly, but I'm not sure what exactly to change other than paying more attention to duty card/work phone.

I'd always recommend checking your job card for every stop - I use mine as a mini guards journal, recording passenger assistance details, delays, a little note of any defects before I book them, unit numbers in case I need em etc. Obviously you work your own way but making sure you get things like passenger assistance sorted is a major part of your role as the guard.

We get marks against us on ride outs if the assessor considers you haven't referred to your job card enough.

 

[Carlisle]

Why would they bother challenging the position of staff on a backward method of working from a believed to be in decline railway that it's likely the companies don't really want to implement?

I'd say most senior figures in the railway probably see Javelin mode style of operation as the norm for new trains except Loco hauled and inter city stock

 

[jammy1]

I assume you've not been out and experienced the new DOO regime on Southern then? It has certainly not led to shorter dwell times, quite the opposite as several posters on here have commented on.

Happy to take your word for it. However, if the company and unions worked together effectively to make sure all stations and trains had the right equipment, layout and station staffing arrangements it would clearly be the most efficient form of dispatch and something worth working towards. I have seen nothing on this thread that suggests otherwise - just issues that it should be possible to overcome with decent management and give and take.

 

[455driver]

Unfortunately if you dont hurry them up with the whistle then the passengers will take all the time in the world, hence why a (decent) Guard is worth their weight in gold during the peaks, station staff tend to just stand there and wait until all the passengers have got on before blowing their whistles which is rather pointless and time consuming.

A DOO driver on their own will also have to wait until everyone is on board before initiating the door closure procedure and so the train will 'dwell' for much longer than necessary.

Guarded trains tend to keep time better than DOO but people tend to ignore simple facts like this because it goes against the DOO is King ideal.

 

[Matt Taylor]

so do you-
a/ forego part of your break so your next train is not delayed (knowing full well that if anything goes wrong they will use the fact you didnt get your full break as a reason to blame you for it), or
b/ make the second train late and endure the wrath of the passengers as you stroll along the platform after the train should have departed.

Tight diagramming is normal but they have taken it to a whole new level.

Edited to add 'late' after (2 minutes).

You shouldn't be foregoing any part of your PNB, if you do and something goes wrong you've given your employer the opportunity to blame you for not getting enough rest.

I'll admit this does make me look bad, but I bet I'm not the only one out there to operate like this.

No your not the only one.

 

[DT611]

Happy to take your word for it. However, if the company and unions worked together effectively to make sure all stations and trains had the right equipment, layout and station staffing arrangements it would clearly be the most efficient form of dispatch and something worth working towards. I have seen nothing on this thread that suggests otherwise - just issues that it should be possible to overcome with decent management and give and take.

They might be able to do all that if the dft stopped meddling. There is no evidence DOO is more efficient at dispatch then driver and guard.

 

[pompeyfan]

I'd always recommend checking your job card for every stop - I use mine as a mini guards journal, recording passenger assistance details, delays, a little note of any defects before I book them, unit numbers in case I need em etc. Obviously you work your own way but making sure you get things like passenger assistance sorted is a major part of your role as the guard.

We get marks against us on ride outs if the assessor considers you haven't referred to your job card enough.

I do make various notes on mine and recently passed a ride out with flying colours, I'm just saying I can see why even on guarded service assistance may go missing if everyone did that all the time. Still, gives me something to put into motion when im next out on track.

 

[redbutton]

I'd always recommend checking your job card for every stop - I use mine as a mini guards journal, recording passenger assistance details, delays, a little note of any defects before I book them, unit numbers in case I need em etc. Obviously you work your own way but making sure you get things like passenger assistance sorted is a major part of your role as the guard.

We get marks against us on ride outs if the assessor considers you haven't referred to your job card enough.

I agree. I'd also add that the CIS on Southern often differs significantly from our (drivers) schedule cards, or is broken.

I only ever use it as an indication that Control have amended my calling pattern but not told me, in which case I call them to confirm. Yes, the driver is very regularly the last to know when his train is amended or cancelled.

 

[jammy1]

There is no evidence DOO is more efficient at dispatch then driver and guard.

For example - From RSSB report on DOO
The third economic benefit is from reduced dwell times at stations, largely due
to avoiding the ‘handshaking’ between guard and driver. SDG’s model
example finds a reduction on average from 39 seconds to 30 seconds per stop.

 

[TEW]

I think if you go out in the real world and watch various forms of dispatch you will find that DOO dispatch is not more efficient.