Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[455driver]

For example - From RSSB report on DOO
The third economic benefit is from reduced dwell times at stations, largely due
to avoiding the ‘handshaking’ between guard and driver. SDG’s model
example finds a reduction on average from 39 seconds to 30 seconds per stop.

From RSSB who are one of the main advocates of DOO, hardly surprising is it!

I am still trying to find out why the McNulty report had to be withheld and rewritten when we had a change of Government, a point conveniently forgotten by the pro DOO posters, because surely the answer to the question was the same regardless of which party was in office!

 

[455driver]

I think if you go out in the real world and watch various forms of dispatch you will find that DOO dispatch is not more efficient.

But these reports start off with an answer and then work out how to ask the right question.

It doesnt matter what happens in the real world because the people writing these reports never do train dispatch (of any kind) or speak to the people who do actually do it, they only look at computer models using the best case scenario for what they want the answer to be and worst case scenario for the one(s) they dont.

It is for this very reason the hoped for 24 trains an hour through the core is going to be an unmitigated disaster, they havent allowed for the biggest variable the railways have to put up with, the passengers.

Oh I am not being detrimental to the passengers its just the nature of the beast and why should they all rush around just to keep to the computer model, I wonder if they have actually done any surveys of the way passengers behave on the platforms and taken it into account?

 

[DT611]

a

For example - From RSSB report on DOO
The third economic benefit is from reduced dwell times at stations, largely due
to avoiding the ‘handshaking’ between guard and driver. SDG’s model
example finds a reduction on average from 39 seconds to 30 seconds per stop.

that isn't evidence. Just something taken from a report which doesn't seem to be backed up by real life experiences. Just because the rssb say something, doesn't make it accurate, i'm afraid.

 

[D1009]

Unfortunately if you dont hurry them up with the whistle then the passengers will take all the time in the world, hence why a (decent) Guard is worth their weight in gold during the peaks, station staff tend to just stand there and wait until all the passengers have got on before blowing their whistles which is rather pointless and time consuming.

I've noticed this on GWR. At Paddington, whistles start to be blown around 2-3 minutes before scheduled departures, but at other places the policy seems to be that whistles can't be blown until the formal dispatch process starts to take place. This is probably a hark back to Gerard Fiennes, former GM of the Western Region who when questioning a member of the Reading platform staff as to why whistles were not being blown to hurry passengers up, got the reply "Sir, we never blow whistles at passengers from Newbury!". To try to justify the role of the guard on the basis of who is better at blowing a whistle, things really are getting desperate.

 

[BestWestern]

To try to justify the role of the guard on the basis of who is better at blowing a whistle, things really are getting desperate.

Ooh, give that man a job at the DfT.

The point being made was, in fact, that the given argument that DOO reduces dwell times - something which has been well used by those trying to justify destaffing the railways - is not accepted as truth by those who actually operate the railways. That's significant (but of course deeply irksome when you have an propaganda campaign to maintain...)

 

[aylesbury]

Watching DOO dispatch at Aylesbury and stations to Marylebone its efficient and safe ,so whats the problem elsewhere ?

 

[AlterEgo]

But these reports start off with an answer and then work out how to ask the right question.

It doesnt matter what happens in the real world because the people writing these reports never do train dispatch (of any kind) or speak to the people who do actually do it, they only look at computer models using the best case scenario for what they want the answer to be and worst case scenario for the one(s) they dont.

It is for this very reason the hoped for 24 trains an hour through the core is going to be an unmitigated disaster, they havent allowed for the biggest variable the railways have to put up with, the passengers.

Oh I am not being detrimental to the passengers its just the nature of the beast and why should they all rush around just to keep to the computer model, I wonder if they have actually done any surveys of the way passengers behave on the platforms and taken it into account?

Incumbent authorities are wrong, the working man is right, the data is wrong, the people who do the data are incompetent or bent, it's all political anyway, someone's making a lot of money somewhere, etc etc etc.

A continuous theme in this thread - not picking on you.

The modern disease; hello Brexit, hello Trump.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Incumbent authorities are wrong, the working man is right, the data is wrong, the people who do the data are incompetent or bent, it's all political anyway, someone's making a lot of money somewhere, etc etc etc.

A continuous theme in this thread - not picking on you.

The modern disease; hello Brexit, hello Trump.

The problem is of course that in a way you are right. The reality is that in many businesses, and government government whether central or local many of those on the front line of delivering services believe that management and the beancounters in their organisation are just running everything to reduce cost, dont care about the front line, not delivery to the end consumer as long as they hit their target, get their bonus and pay rise, whilst denying them to those who are delivering at the pointed end.

I fail to believe that any professional delivering a report hasn't known what the client wants that report to say, and therefore tried to deliver a report that states what the client wants. It may be that in the end they realise they cant but in many cases they will be able to highlight the bits the client wants whilst glossing over the bits the client doesn't want.

Those delivering the front end project are also in many cases fed up that they are constantly having to have efficiencies forced on them usually which involve them having to do more, or have less staff, or a shift pattern that in theory saves money but at the cost of staff morale in order to drive a target set by an accountant. Even if the target is hit the person on the frontline sees little benefit because then the next efficiency target is there to be hit.

They therefore distrust those in charge, and indeed politicians because they see them as having very little real world frontline experience. Trump was probably elected because he was not a full time politician.

Turn this to the railway and you will see the drivers having to door more work, having to take the risks of it going wrong. having to work a shift pattern which is apparently safe but they know makes them tired, having to use a camera system which is no where near the best, having to report why they were late, whilst seeing those in charge who have never experienced life driving a train, doing dispatch, not been seen in the crew rooms finding out the front line view for themselves, earn bonuses for delivering something that those on the frontline does not deliver the best product for the end consumer.

The reality is that ultimately we cannot have efficiency after efficiency as at the end of the day we end up with no one actually doing any work because we have all been replaced by efficiences.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem is of course that in a way you are right. The reality is that in many businesses, and government government whether central or local many of those on the front line of delivering services believe that management and the beancounters in their organisation are just running everything to reduce cost, dont care about the front line, not delivery to the end consumer as long as they hit their target, get their bonus and pay rise, whilst denying them to those who are delivering at the pointed end.

I fail to believe that any professional delivering a report hasn't known what the client wants that report to say, and therefore tried to deliver a report that states what the client wants. It may be that in the end they realise they cant but in many cases they will be able to highlight the bits the client wants whilst glossing over the bits the client doesn't want.

Those delivering the front end project are also in many cases fed up that they are constantly having to have efficiencies forced on them usually which involve them having to do more, or have less staff, or a shift pattern that in theory saves money but at the cost of staff morale in order to drive a target set by an accountant. Even if the target is hit the person on the frontline sees little benefit because then the next efficiency target is there to be hit.

They therefore distrust those in charge, and indeed politicians because they see them as having very little real world frontline experience. Trump was probably elected because he was not a full time politician.

Turn this to the railway and you will see the drivers having to door more work, having to take the risks of it going wrong. having to work a shift pattern which is apparently safe but they know makes them tired, having to use a camera system which is no where near the best, having to report why they were late, whilst seeing those in charge who have never experienced life driving a train, doing dispatch, not been seen in the crew rooms finding out the front line view for themselves, earn bonuses for delivering something that those on the frontline does not deliver the best product for the end consumer.

The reality is that ultimately we cannot have efficiency after efficiency as at the end of the day we end up with no one actually doing any work because we have all been replaced by efficiences.

Welcome to the real world.

People - and businesses - have been asked to do more for less since the Industrial Revolution.

People have long been managed by other people who haven't done that grade's job. That's how life works in an industrial society - some might say we are almost post-industrial.

The issue of distrust is two-way. Yes, management need to take responsibility, yes they need to see the shop floor, yes they need to look after their staff. But placing all the burden on them for "trust" is short-sighted. After all, if you've never been a manager or CEO, how valid is your judgement of their job when you claim for the same reason they've no right to tell you how to do yours?

"The RSSB are wrong/in the government's and TOC pockets/incompetent/bent. That's because they don't drive trains and they don't dispatch them!!"

"Okay. Have you ever worked for the RSSB?"

"No."

"....."

 

[Robertj21a]

Welcome to the real world.

People - and businesses - have been asked to do more for less since the Industrial Revolution.

People have long been managed by other people who haven't done that grade's job. That's how life works in an industrial society - some might say we are almost post-industrial.

The issue of distrust is two-way. Yes, management need to take responsibility, yes they need to see the shop floor, yes they need to look after their staff. But placing all the burden on them for "trust" is short-sighted. After all, if you've never been a manager or CEO, how valid is your judgement of their job when you claim for the same reason they've no right to tell you how to do yours?

"The RSSB are wrong/in the government's and TOC pockets/incompetent/bent. That's because they don't drive trains and they don't dispatch them!!"

"Okay. Have you ever worked for the RSSB?"

"No."

"....."

Good post, and very accurate.

We need to remember that many on this forum are those working within the industry and will have many tales to tell of things that could be improved, changed or simply abandoned. What is usually missing on here is anyone admitting to be a part of senior management - AND capable of putting over their point of view in a pleasant, un-emotive and factual manner.

Given the attitudes of a few rail staff, I'm sure a senior management role is one that has more than its fair share of problems !

 

[LowLevel]

Welcome to the real world.

People - and businesses - have been asked to do more for less since the Industrial Revolution.

People have long been managed by other people who haven't done that grade's job. That's how life works in an industrial society - some might say we are almost post-industrial.

Isn't it going swimmingly. We have people who increasingly it seems are lashing out in seemingly illogical ways owing to feeling forgotten.

We have entire towns filled with people who have no productive work.

We have a prevalence of low paid jobs where they do exist while in the mean time a miniscule section of humanity somehow manages to own massive tracts of land and has more money than some countries.

When it's gone wrong like this before we've end up with lots of French people meeting 'la guillotine' and lots of Polish, German etc people meeting the gas chambers and it's foolish to think it could never happen again.

I've said it before and I've said it again. We have progressed, technologically speaking, very quickly in a short space of time.

We need to stop for a period, call it ten years, to really have a look at who we are, what we're doing and where we're going.

All I can say is that if I end up in a Jobcentre in the future over this drive forward then I would probably be somewhere north of angry myself - would it be enough to want revenge on the people operating the puppet strings - quite possibly.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Isn't it going swimmingly. We have people who increasingly it seems are lashing out in seemingly illogical ways owing to feeling forgotten.

All I can say is that if I end up in a Jobcentre in the future over this drive forward then I would probably be somewhere north of angry myself - would it be enough to want revenge on the people operating the puppet strings - quite possibly.

It is the basis of radicalisation. People associate radicalisation as the domain of the 'mad muller' it is no such thing. That is just an avenue of it.
If you trample on people they will seek revenge. David Cameron found this on June 23rd 2016. Many voted out of sheer frustration and he never saw it coming.

As for the topic itself. Money talks, and the more you have the more you seek it. Southern will offer a driver sweetner, and they will lap it up.

 

[TheEdge]

Isn't it going swimmingly. We have people who increasingly it seems are lashing out in seemingly illogical ways owing to feeling forgotten.

We have entire towns filled with people who have no productive work.

We have a prevalence of low paid jobs where they do exist while in the mean time a miniscule section of humanity somehow manages to own massive tracts of land and has more money than some countries.

When it's gone wrong like this before we've end up with lots of French people meeting 'la guillotine' and lots of Polish, German etc people meeting the gas chambers and it's foolish to think it could never happen again.

I've said it before and I've said it again. We have progressed, technologically speaking, very quickly in a short space of time.

We need to stop for a period, call it ten years, to really have a look at who we are, what we're doing and where we're going.

All I can say is that if I end up in a Jobcentre in the future over this drive forward then I would probably be somewhere north of angry myself - would it be enough to want revenge on the people operating the puppet strings - quite possibly.

This is one of the best posts in this entire thread for a long time. Trump and Brexit might just be the start, a lot of observers seem to think the liberal democracy, previously heralded as the perfect form of government, is under real threat from an ever growing forgotten majority.

 

[455driver]

Southern will offer a driver sweetener, and they will lap it up.

And you say that as a Southern driver do you?
Or is it just your blinkered assumption?

Unfortunately James Street and the current Guard awaiting a Court case (despite MerseyRail and RAIB not finding fault with his actions) has focused the mind more on what could happen through no fault of your own than a few quid in the pay packet, but then some people just assume its always about the money dont they!

 

[Dave1987]

Welcome to the real world.

People - and businesses - have been asked to do more for less since the Industrial Revolution.

People have long been managed by other people who haven't done that grade's job. That's how life works in an industrial society - some might say we are almost post-industrial.

The issue of distrust is two-way. Yes, management need to take responsibility, yes they need to see the shop floor, yes they need to look after their staff. But placing all the burden on them for "trust" is short-sighted. After all, if you've never been a manager or CEO, how valid is your judgement of their job when you claim for the same reason they've no right to tell you how to do yours?

I've worked under some pretty exceptional managers and senior managers. All of them had worked their way up the tree. They all had the respect of those they managed because they had earned that respect and knew their stuff. In my experience the very best managers are those that have done the role of those below them. You may say that is not how things work nowadays but maybe that is what is wrong with our economy now.

 

[jammy1]

This is one of the best posts in this entire thread for a long time. Trump and Brexit might just be the start, a lot of observers seem to think the liberal democracy, previously heralded as the perfect form of government, is under real threat from an ever growing forgotten majority.

I completely agree with last few posts and think they are points the unions should have been making in a diplomatic way all along.
The focus of the current dispute, at least in public, seems to have been too skewed to what DOO means for passengers. But it's well established that staff morale is a key factor in determining service quality. In addition, DfT seem to have completely ignored that the role of government is to represent people - including railway staff and people in other industries whose role they may want to change.
That said there are very important theoretical benefits from DOO dwell time reductions that should not be ignored.
It really should be possible for both sides to explore the practicality of achieving them while at the same time, countering ALL potential negative impacts.
Perhaps the unions could take the big and difficult step of setting aside all the present and historic mistrust and saying we see your point of view and we will absolutely try to achieve it so long as the solution delivers what we need. Perhaps that is
- a proper working environment for drivers
- properly staffed, redesigned and operated stations fir for a modern high capacity system
- redefining the guards role or creating new roles from the starting perspective of what it would take to retain their self-esteem in their working life
Unfortunately, at present the dispute seems not to have gone very far beyond: DfT/GTR - you're doing it. Drivers/guards: No we're not.
I can't see any good ending unless someone is big enough to see it from the others' side and commit to finding a way to achieve it that satisfies everyone's aims. It's difficult but possible and as has been noted by others has very important implications outside the rail industry.

 

[Chester1]

Isn't it going swimmingly. We have people who increasingly it seems are lashing out in seemingly illogical ways owing to feeling forgotten.

We have entire towns filled with people who have no productive work.

We have a prevalence of low paid jobs where they do exist while in the mean time a miniscule section of humanity somehow manages to own massive tracts of land and has more money than some countries.

When it's gone wrong like this before we've end up with lots of French people meeting 'la guillotine' and lots of Polish, German etc people meeting the gas chambers and it's foolish to think it could never happen again.

I've said it before and I've said it again. We have progressed, technologically speaking, very quickly in a short space of time.

We need to stop for a period, call it ten years, to really have a look at who we are, what we're doing and where we're going.

All I can say is that if I end up in a Jobcentre in the future over this drive forward then I would probably be somewhere north of angry myself - would it be enough to want revenge on the people operating the puppet strings - quite possibly.

Unfortunately pausing change in the world is not an option. Automation is often seen in very simple terms, that it makes people redundant and therefore is bad for the taxpayer etc. Its very small thinking. It also creates some hi tech jobs and by cutting prices it means more money for people to spend or save, creating jobs in other parts of the economy. Automation can be a really good thing if the tax system is changed to make the rich pay their share (e.g. through more property taxation) and through decent safeguards to reduce the casualisation of the workforce. Another change is also neccessary and its the peoples job not the government's. We need to move away from people basing their identity on their job / career. The speed of change in the economy means that is setting yourself up for a big fall in several years time. The current growth of rail traffic means now is the best time to reduce the number of staff per passenger, as if it done well then no one needs to lose their job, just be moved to a difference role.

 

[Dave1987]

Unfortunately pausing change in the world is not an option. Automation is often seen in very simple terms, that it makes people redundant and therefore is bad for the taxpayer etc. Its very small thinking. It also creates some hi tech jobs and by cutting prices it means more money for people to spend or save, creating jobs in other parts of the economy. Automation can be a really good thing if the tax system is changed to make the rich pay their share (e.g. through more property taxation) and through decent safeguards to reduce the casualisation of the workforce. Another change is also neccessary and its the peoples job not the government's. We need to move away from people basing their identity on their job / career. The speed of change in the economy means that is setting yourself up for a big fall in several years time. The current growth of rail traffic means now is the best time to reduce the number of staff per passenger, as if it done well then no one needs to lose their job, just be moved to a difference role.

I totally disagree. We have potentially thousands of job losses inbound and our economy is extremely fragile. We should be doing all we can to protect every single job in the economy at the moment. For example Mrs May is seemingly gonna have to promise the earth to the car industry just to keep car plants open and Tata employees have had to accept a huge attack on their pensions just to keep a job. Yup that's a fantastic economy you are building their Tories. And the younger generations will pay for it in the future.

 

[Robertj21a]

I totally disagree. We have potentially thousands of job losses inbound and our economy is extremely fragile. We should be doing all we can to protect every single job in the economy at the moment. For example Mrs May is seemingly gonna have to promise the earth to the car industry just to keep car plants open and Tata employees have had to accept a huge attack on their pensions just to keep a job. Yup that's a fantastic economy you are building their Tories. And the younger generations will pay for it in the future.

Sorry, but Chester1 has summed up the situation very well. By all means try to protect every job that can realistically be saved but automation will usually win in the end. In most other jobs the staff have had to get used to regular changes to keep up with technology and greater efficiency, the rail industry should be no different.

 

[455driver]

So who puts the wheelchair on the train on this de-staffed railway?
who answers the passengers questions about connections etc during disruption?
and on and on.

 

[Barn]

In most other jobs the staff have had to get used to regular changes to keep up with technology and greater efficiency, the rail industry should be no different.

The difference on the railway is the power of the unions to prejudice the interests of the working majority to promote the interests of the few (whilst claiming to be strident socialists).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The difference on the railway is the power of the unions to prejudice the interests of the working majority to promote the interests of the few (whilst claiming to be strident socialists).

There are still those who have equated the Corbyn/Momentum extreme left wing scenario as a somewhat coincidental matter when compared to the politically inspired RMT matter of ballots for threatened strike action as a first line of attack coupled to the now infamously worded RMT press releases that seemed to mark their political style.

 

[infobleep]

But these reports start off with an answer and then work out how to ask the right question.

It doesnt matter what happens in the real world because the people writing these reports never do train dispatch (of any kind) or speak to the people who do actually do it, they only look at computer models using the best case scenario for what they want the answer to be and worst case scenario for the one(s) they dont.

It is for this very reason the hoped for 24 trains an hour through the core is going to be an unmitigated disaster, they havent allowed for the biggest variable the railways have to put up with, the passengers.

Oh I am not being detrimental to the passengers its just the nature of the beast and why should they all rush around just to keep to the computer model, I wonder if they have actually done any surveys of the way passengers behave on the platforms and taken it into account?

GTR say they want a better passenger experience. Well such a thing didn't occur on the Thameslink I was on and that has no OBS. Imagine the future with them. On Southern and Gatwick Express. You will get experiences like the one I just had.

Was on the 17.22 from Blackfriars. This train had a door fault so left about 20 minutes late. The train was packed but the screens said front four coaches were half full. So I got through all the packed people in the vestibules and aisles, no doubt annoying some by doing so to find hardly any seats free and of those free, perhaps just a few, these had bags on them. If this train had a guard, they could have announced such a thing and tell passengers what it was really like at the front rather than the incorrect or misleading screen. They might even be able to advise passengers to move down the train.

The driver certainly didn't do that and why should he. His job is to concentrate on driving the train if you ask me.

I've yet to have a better passenger experience on the DOO train. I've had trains when it's been as good as a guard or OBS. However I've had journeys where the guard has been better than DOO.
Turns out by the time the train reached Gatwick Airport, there wasn't any train to intermediate stations to Haywards Heath until the the next Thameslink service. So I should have waited at Blackfriars for the next train. I thought I might pick up a train from London Bridge but no. That must have left before we arrived.

I wonder if a guard would have told passengers they are better of waiting rather than changing at Gatwick Airport? Perhaps passengers wouldn't listen.

Next train less busy of course but who cares about the passengers experience. It's a Sunday.

I can't really blame them for me catching the first train. I thought I'd make a faster connection by changing at Gatwick but I hadn't looked up the times. Had I done so I'd have noticed there only four trains an hour, which are spaced 7 minute gap, 23 minute gap, 7 minute gap and 23 minute gap. Clearly we were never going to make up 14+ minutes needed to be in front of the other train. Thus I ended up on the Thameslink behind from Gatwick. Still first class is declassified at the back.

Had someone at Blackfriars said that the train behind had more space, I may have waited. Of course despite claiming they want to give their customers the best experience, no one said that.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

GTR say they want a better passenger experience. Well such a thing didn't occur on the Thameslink I was on and that has no OBS. Imagine the future with them. On Southern and Gatwick Express. You will get experiences like the one I just had.

Was on the 17.22 from Blackfriars. This train had a door fault so left about 20 minutes late. The train was packed but the screens said front four coaches were half full. So I got through all the packed people in the vestibules and aisles, no doubt annoying some by doing so to find hardly any seats free and of those free, perhaps just a few, these had bags on them. If this train had a guard, they could have announced such a thing and tell passengers what it was really like at the front rather than the incorrect or misleading screen. They might even be able to advise passengers to move down the train.

The driver certainly didn't do that and why should he. His job is to concentrate on driving the train if you ask me.

I've yet to have a better passenger experience on the DOO train. I've had trains when it's been as good as a guard or OBS. However I've had journeys where the guard has been better than DOO.
Turns out by the time the train reached Gatwick Airport, there wasn't any train to intermediate stations to Haywards Heath until the the next Thameslink service. So I should have waited at Blackfriars for the next train. I thought I might pick up a train from London Bridge but no. That must have left before we arrived.

I wonder if a guard would have told passengers they are better of waiting rather than changing at Gatwick Airport? Perhaps passengers wouldn't listen.

Next train less busy of course but who cares about the passengers experience. It's a Sunday.

I can't really blame them for me catching the first train. I thought I'd make a faster connection by changing at Gatwick but I hadn't looked up the times. Had I done so I'd have noticed there only four trains an hour, which are spaced 7 minute gap, 23 minute gap, 7 minute gap and 23 minute gap. Clearly we were never going to make up 14+ minutes needed to be in front of the other train. Thus I ended up on the Thameslink behind from Gatwick. Still first class is declassified at the back.

They don't care about you as a passenger. You're just paying cattle to them. The number cruncher's have done their sums, and come up with the idea that four deaths a year are acceptable on the railways as a price worth paying for DOO. Of course, they'll still use safety as a big stick to beat the train driver with.

 

[JamesTT]

Had someone at Blackfriars said that the train behind had more space, I may have waited. Of course despite claiming they want to give their customers the best experience, no one said that.

I have heard annoucements advising passengers that the next busy train is minutes away and most of the time they are ignored. So perhaps the attitude is why waste their breath on an announcement nobody or very limited numbers of people will either listen to or take heed of let alone appreciate

 

[JamesTT]

I've worked under some pretty exceptional managers and senior managers. All of them had worked their way up the tree. They all had the respect of those they managed because they had earned that respect and knew their stuff. In my experience the very best managers are those that have done the role of those below them. You may say that is not how things work nowadays but maybe that is what is wrong with our economy now.

Without stating the obvious there are good and bad rankers and good and bad management who have started as managers. I believe it is best if businesses act as a meritocracy. Where things such as nepotism, old school ties and belonging to right club should play no part in promotion etc. Wishful thinking I know

 

[JamesTT]

When talking about jobs and the economy. I expect it is difficult for the person on the street to class taking an OBS job as joining the race to the bottom.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When talking about jobs and the economy. I expect it is difficult for the person on the street to class taking an OBS job as joining the race to the bottom.

The term "race to the bottom" seems a tad rude to me with many strange connotations....

 

[Dave1987]

When talking about jobs and the economy. I expect it is difficult for the person on the street to class taking an OBS job as joining the race to the bottom.

When looking at the wider economy it's very very sad to see that most people can only dream of getting into a decent pension scheme and even if they do get into one there is an increasing risk that that pensions scheme might be attacked in some way shape or form. Look at the amount of workforce in the economy that have had to accept a worsening of their terms and conditions of employment. We live in a country where some people in full time work simply cannot afford to start a family because of housing and child care costs. So yeah I can see very much where the 'race to the bottom' analogy comes from. I'm fortunate to work in an industry that still maintains a very good pensions scheme and most grades still have good conditions. And long may it remain so but I doubt it unless someone drags the Government back into the centre ground kicking and screaming. While we have certain persons in the cabinet I highly doubt it.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Welcome to the real world.

People - and businesses - have been asked to do more for less since the Industrial Revolution.

People have long been managed by other people who haven't done that grade's job. That's how life works in an industrial society - some might say we are almost post-industrial.

The issue of distrust is two-way. Yes, management need to take responsibility, yes they need to see the shop floor, yes they need to look after their staff. But placing all the burden on them for "trust" is short-sighted. After all, if you've never been a manager or CEO, how valid is your judgement of their job when you claim for the same reason they've no right to tell you how to do yours?

"The RSSB are wrong/in the government's and TOC pockets/incompetent/bent. That's because they don't drive trains and they don't dispatch them!!"

"Okay. Have you ever worked for the RSSB?"

"No."

"....."

Perhaps if we are post industrial we need to review where we are and what we are doing and whether it is actually possible to keep growing year on year etc, whether it is possible to continue making savings.

A company may have a target to improve by 10% year on year but it is actually impossible because in theory to do that they have to take over the world but of course once done that they can't grow any more.

We only need to look at companies in the FTSE 100, invariably they get to a size and then suddenly something goes wrong and they crash back down again. Their chief executives etc might lose their jobs but often get paid off and certainly never seem to refund bonuses earnt before getting there.

I have no objection to entrepreneurs being rewarded for their efforts as invariably they have put themselves at great financial risk to get there but what about the chief execs of other companies?

Is it a good idea to have board members in their 30's and 40s? Do they have the necessary experience in life? In the meantime the foot soldiers at the bottom are looking at not retiring until their 70s due to the inability of the country to support pensions.

In my opinion this country and indeed the western world cannot go on as it is because we will run out of money at some point. The reality is we need employment, and we need to get away from this view that we need to run everything as cheaply as possible. We need to realise there may be benefits to having happy content staff, we may have to accept certain alledged inefficiences.

I think one reason that some travelling members of the public support rail staff in this dispute because they are fed up of cuts in their own workplace and realise that these constant cuts just are not sustainable