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Speeding Fine

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dangie

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Or alternatively, my post #99 above shows Bushey Road A298 with wide footpaths (cyclepaths?).
The A513 in Staffordshire between Kings Bromley and Alrewas had these footpaths/cycle paths on each side. Some years ago the road was resurfaced. The footpath/cycle path weren’t painted back in. One would think that this would have been part of the contractor’s contract, but I suppose it would have cost more. Another instance of money above safety.
 
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Lucan

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I'd personally be in favour of having any road with a house fronting on to it to be 10mph

The North Circular and A1 at Sandy spring to mind!
... and just about every other road in the UK other than motorways and those in the Scottish and Welsh highlands. I think the OP just wants to ban cars, but that would be another thread. I live on a B-road that is about as rural as it gets in lowland Britain, and there are houses (or tracks that lead to houses or farms) at least every half-mile, even though, like mine, you do not necessarily see them from the road.
 

zwk500

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... and just about every other road in the UK other than motorways and those in the Scottish and Welsh highlands. I think the OP just wants to ban cars, but that would be another thread. I live on a B-road that is about as rural as it gets in lowland Britain, and there are houses (or tracks that lead to houses or farms) at least every half-mile, even though, like mine, you do not necessarily see them from the road.
Then it's not fronting on to the road, is it? (In case it wasn't clear my suggestion was limited to urban areas, and was about places that people or pets can just run straight into the road without warning)
 

Meerkat

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Then it's not fronting on to the road, is it? (In case it wasn't clear my suggestion was limited to urban areas, and was about places that people or pets can just run straight into the road without warning)
Define ‘fronting onto the road’ then - how wide can the pavement/verge be before we can drive a normal speed?
 

biko

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UK built a load of 9 foot (2.7m) wide protected cycle paths alongside dual carriageways and arterial roads in 1930s. I know one exists on A316 (the London extension of M3) near Twickenham. That section is now 40mph with average speed cameras

Found a link, but if anyone knows list of them, probably for different thread, thought to have been 300+ miles of them.

Interesting, I didn't know this!
 

PeterC

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UK built a load of 9 foot (2.7m) wide protected cycle paths alongside dual carriageways and arterial roads in 1930s. I know one exists on A316 (the London extension of M3) near Twickenham. That section is now 40mph with average speed cameras

Found a link, but if anyone knows list of them, probably for different thread, thought to have been 300+ miles of them.

The ones on the A127 have been butchered due to junction remodelling in many places.
 

Meerkat

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Dorking to Leatherhead still has cyclepaths on one side all the way, both sides some of the way.
A nice cyclist on one of them warned me about a speed trap hiding round the corner trying to catch people accelerating after going through the fixed camera. Its a ridiculous 50 limit on a dual carriageway. Everyone knew it was ridiculous so it was barely observed at all. Instead of recognising this sign of their mistake they made it average speed cameras for most of it. Painful and makes lane changing more dangerous.
 

zwk500

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Dorking to Leatherhead still has cyclepaths on one side all the way, both sides some of the way.
A nice cyclist on one of them warned me about a speed trap hiding round the corner trying to catch people accelerating after going through the fixed camera. Its a ridiculous 50 limit on a dual carriageway. Everyone knew it was ridiculous so it was barely observed at all. Instead of recognising this sign of their mistake they made it average speed cameras for most of it. Painful and makes lane changing more dangerous.
Would that be this road: https://www.roads.org.uk/photo/mickleham-bends where the lanes are too narrow so it's down to D2+1 in places and has numerous bends sharp enough for warning signs?
 

Bald Rick

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I’ve cycled on that dual carriageway! Managed to keep under the speed limit (just :))
 

Meerkat

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Would that be this road: https://www.roads.org.uk/photo/mickleham-bends where the lanes are too narrow so it's down to D2+1 in places and has numerous bends sharp enough for warning signs?
It doesn't have numerous bends. It has one bendy bit in the middle which had a fixed camera to slow people down for the Mickleham junction. 60 would be a slow enough limit for that bit. The casualties I remember were either people who weren't obeying the higher speed limit (particularly a serious mass biker problem, but I think the av speed cameras are front facing??) or sheer incompetence by old folk who probably shouldn't have been driving at all.
As with all average speed cameras it adds danger by causing serious bunching and forcing people into braking into gaps to change lane, rather than blipping forward into gaps.
 

zwk500

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As with all average speed cameras it adds danger by causing serious bunching and forcing people into braking into gaps to change lane, rather than blipping forward into gaps.
That sounds like terrible driving, not the average cameras, that are causing that problem.
 

Meerkat

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That sounds like terrible driving, not the average cameras, that are causing that problem.
Average speed cameras cause bunching - always someone, sometimes in both lanes, who is doing less than 50 (speedo over reading or overly cautious)
You then get people overtaking but at <5mph differential. Then people realise they are running out of road to get in the correct lane for the roundabout. Unwilling to accelerate into a gap they start braking and changing lane. The combo of people looking into their mirrors for gaps and others braking leads to problems.
There is a spot near Clandon where two lanes merge into one a bit after a corner. Just as drivers are going round the corner the plod have a parking bay specially built for a regular camera van to catch people who can't believe a country dual carriageway can be a 50 limit - so just as drivers are checking mirrors for merging folk start slamming on their brakes (including some people who are well under the limit but panic anyway). The police use a camera van to make the road MORE dangerous!

In the real world if you mix real drivers and speed limits clearly lower than road speed you get problems.
 

jfollows

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In the real world if you mix real drivers and speed limits clearly lower than road speed you get problems.
I agree, but it's usually the "something must be (seen to be) done" brigade responsible for the inappropriate limits (they would maintain they're appropriate, of course) and the police who have to enforce them. Mind you, often the police take a more pragmatic approach and don't bother with enforcement (I can think of some round Wilmslow which fall into this category) so either the police in Clandon are on board or they've been dragooned into the enforcement by the afore-mentioned brigade.
 

Meerkat

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I agree, but it's usually the "something must be (seen to be) done" brigade responsible for the inappropriate limits (they would maintain they're appropriate, of course) and the police who have to enforce them. Mind you, often the police take a more pragmatic approach and don't bother with enforcement (I can think of some round Wilmslow which fall into this category) so either the police in Clandon are on board or they've been dragooned into the enforcement by the afore-mentioned brigade.
Either my speedometer was wrong or the police never used to set the limit on their camera vans to the actual speed limit……it was just bizarre to have a camera van out in the countryside in a dangerous position and not where people were speeding in towns where the pedestrIan’s and cyclists were
 

PeterC

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Either my speedometer was wrong or the police never used to set the limit on their camera vans to the actual speed limit……it was just bizarre to have a camera van out in the countryside in a dangerous position and not where people were speeding in towns where the pedestrIan’s and cyclists were
My speedometer over reads by 3mph at 30. Speed cameras are usually set at a margin above the limit. I suspect on the grounds that nobody will bother going to court to argue that they were "only" doing 35 in a 30 limit instead of 36.

To get a ticket in a 50 limit my car probably need to be doing an indicated speed of around 58 or higher.
 

jfollows

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+10%+2mph is the point at which prosecution will start, so 57mph measured in a 50mph limit, for example, I’ve been on a course in lieu of points for this
 

jfollows

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How long (usually) does it take for a letter to come through after sending off a completed NIP form?
The last one for my household was about a month.
That may not be usual, but it probably won't be much quicker.
All the times add up. You have to be able to book and complete the course, for example, well before 6 months after the offence, because otherwise the prosecution can't be brought against you.
But if you're reasonably prompt, as I think you were, and you're the registered keeper so you're not already part way down a chain of referrals, then it shouldn't be an issue, the process will cope.
For us:
  • 8/9/22 offence
  • 15/9/22 letter sent off
  • 12/10/22 offer of course etc.
  • 19/12/22 course booked and taken
 
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Islineclear3_1

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The last one for my household was about a month.
That may not be usual, but it probably won't be much quicker.
All the times add up. You have to be able to book and complete the course, for example, well before 6 months after the offence, because otherwise the prosecution can't be brought against you.
But if you're reasonably prompt, as I think you were, and you're the registered keeper so you're not already part way down a chain of referrals, then it shouldn't be an issue, the process will cope.
For us:
  • 8/9/22 offence
  • 15/9/22 letter sent off
  • 12/10/22 offer of course etc.
  • 19/12/22 course booked and taken
okay thanks :)
 

Enthusiast

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usually true but not guaranteed,
All police forces in England & Wales are said to follow the ACPO/NPCC guidelines on speeding enforcement. These suggest enforcement should begin at (Limit+10%+2mph). Until about four years ago the Met actually used (Limit+10%+3mph) as their threshold, though they aligned with the national guidance in about 2019, IIRC. This guidance does not override an officer's discretion to take action below that speed, but it would be very unusual. I contribute to a number of motoring forums and there are often claims of drivers seeing action below that threshold. They are usually asked to provide evidence of that allegation and to date I have never seen any. The usual response is "Sorry, it was 35mph, not 34" (or similar). Enforcement at a lower level would almost certainly be restricted to a "follow" by a mobile officer because as far as I know, no remote devices, fixed or portable, are set to detect below the official guidance thresholds.
 
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Larkhall

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One item which has been touched already on in this thread, is that the UK has the least visible speed limit signs of any 'first world' country I've ever driven or been a passenger in. Even the classic US black on white is somehow more visible.

I was suprised to find that the legislation for speed limit sign dimensions does scale up right to 1500mm diameter, so it's not a legislation issue as such - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/10/made?view=plain

It's just that the roading authorities particularly on council level seem to prefer the smaller ranges for even 40mph limits. Is it cost cutting?
 

jfollows

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One item which has been touched already on in this thread, is that the UK has the least visible speed limit signs of any 'first world' country I've ever driven or been a passenger in. Even the classic US black on white is somehow more visible.

I was suprised to find that the legislation for speed limit sign dimensions does scale up right to 1500mm diameter, so it's not a legislation issue as such - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/10/made?view=plain

It's just that the roading authorities particularly on council level seem to prefer the smaller ranges for even 40mph limits. Is it cost cutting?
It’s funny, though, I find ours incredibly clear and the US ones less so (I lived in the US for a number of years). So maybe there’s something in it when people say they didn’t see the terminal signs - something not quite like colour blindness but in which people see things differently and some things less prominently than others do? I’ve always known the limit when I’ve been speeding, I was deliberately exceeding it, not sure whether that’s a good thing or bad thing! Last points 5/5/05 so probably I got better at behaving properly.
 

Efini92

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When I did my speed awareness course a few years ago, I was absolutely astonished how many people thought that was a dual carriageway. The general standard of ‘road knowledge’ was frankly poor, and about a third of those attending were professional drivers.
I had that same experience, one woman who claimed it was a dual carriage way said she was certain as she’d attended the course before…

I think the test is far too easy in this country and not enough skills are taught.
 

jfollows

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I had that same experience, one woman who claimed it was a dual carriage way said she was certain as she’d attended the course before…

I think the test is far too easy in this country and not enough skills are taught.
I don't agree with this; I think the test is fine but the fact that many people never need to take any further test and can drive from age 17 to 70+ is the problem.
I think that the courses in lieu of penalty points are a good idea, because they both demonstrate the lack of knowledge of some drivers and help correct this.
I'm lucky in that I've had two further driving tests since I passed at the age of 18 in something like 1979, in two US states, I have been on two driving days paid for by my employer, and I've been on a speed awareness course in lieu of points. All these have led to improvements in my driving skills.
Whether or not enough skills are taught I'm less worried about. But it's clear that lane discipline isn't taught, and this stems in part from not allowing learner drivers to be taught on motorways, although I think that's now changed.
Some people also find the theory test hard - I didn't have one but I've done them since out of interest and found them trivially easy. But I'm the sort of person who is good at pointless tests anyway, so I'm not sure what this proves.
Personally I would prefer something that ensures that drivers get additional training and correction of their bad habits, like I've been lucky enough to get. But who pays for this?
 

Efini92

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I don't agree with this; I think the test is fine but the fact that many people never need to take any further test and can drive from age 17 to 70+ is the problem.
I think that the courses in lieu of penalty points are a good idea, because they both demonstrate the lack of knowledge of some drivers and help correct this.
I'm lucky in that I've had two further driving tests since I passed at the age of 18 in something like 1979, in two US states, I have been on two driving days paid for by my employer, and I've been on a speed awareness course in lieu of points. All these have led to improvements in my driving skills.
Whether or not enough skills are taught I'm less worried about. But it's clear that lane discipline isn't taught, and this stems in part from not allowing learner drivers to be taught on motorways, although I think that's now changed.
Some people also find the theory test hard - I didn't have one but I've done them since out of interest and found them trivially easy. But I'm the sort of person who is good at pointless tests anyway, so I'm not sure what this proves.
Personally I would prefer something that ensures that drivers get additional training and correction of their bad habits, like I've been lucky enough to get. But who pays for this?
The Finn’s have it right, it takes about 3 years of training to be able to drive there.
I agree, there should be regular assessments on competence.
Cost is definitely the issue, you can almost guarantee it will be passed onto the motorist.
 

zero

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All police forces in England & Wales are said to follow the ACPO/NPCC guidelines on speeding enforcement. These suggest enforcement should begin at (Limit+10%+2mph). Until about four years ago the Met actually used (Limit+10%+3mph) as their threshold, though they aligned with the national guidance in about 2019, IIRC. This guidance does not override an officer's discretion to take action below that speed, but it would be very unusual. I contribute to a number of motoring forums and there are often claims of drivers seeing action below that threshold. They are usually asked to provide evidence of that allegation and to date I have never seen any. The usual response is "Sorry, it was 35mph, not 34" (or similar). Enforcement at a lower level would almost certainly be restricted to a "follow" by a mobile officer because as far as I know, no remote devices, fixed or portable, are set to detect below the official guidance thresholds.

A colleague was caught doing 55 in a 50 and showed me proof. This was in 2013.
 

Ediswan

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A colleague was caught doing 55 in a 50 and showed me proof. This was in 2013.
North Wales Police once tried zero tolerance for speeding. 31 in a 30 would have been a ticket. The policy soon vanished, almost without trace. I did find this:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id... wales police zero tolerance speeding&f=false
When, in 2003, the Chief Constable of North Wales announced that he would apply the zero-tolerance policy to speed enforcement in his area, there was an immediate scream of outrage in newspapers and on television, until he quietly rescinded the policy !
 

dangie

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For completeness, since I began this thread here is an update.
Today I did my Speed Awareness Course. I chose the classroom version not Zoom as it was only a couple of miles from home and I went on the bus.

There were two ‘instructors’. Both of them were driving instructors by profession. There were 19 ‘pupils’. I thought at 72 I’d probably be the oldest there. No chance. Must have been 5 or 6 older than me. The youngest was about 45-50. I’d guess most younger choose the Zoom version.

To be honest I thought it extremely worthwhile. I certainly learnt something and think everyone else did too. It began with a slideshow showing views of five different roads. We had to write down what we thought the speed limit was on each road. Sounds easy, but apart from the motorway which everyone agreed on, there was a split of answers for each of the others. At the end we had another slideshow with different roads. This time everyone got them all correct.

At no time were we made to feel guilty about speeding. It was constructive, educational and at the same time good fun. There was plenty of interaction between everyone. I’m not sure how a Zoom presentation could have got the information across.
 
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