Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Llanigraham]

The reason is that the Treasury is not convinced that the Welsh Government can manage it's own finances and will incur excessive costs for Welsh Tax payers.

Evidence of that statement, or conjecture?

 

[Olaf]

Evidence of that statement, or conjecture?

Yes; previous statements in the public domain.

 

[gareth950]

The reason is that the Treasury is not convinced that the Welsh Government can manage it's own finances and will incur excessive costs for Welsh Tax payers.

I think it has a lot more to do with Chris Grayling and the fact that he is against any rail devolution full stop, even to English regions, e.g. opposing TfL taking over more London suburban services because of the Labour Mayor of London.

 

[gareth950]

Yes; previous statements in the public domain.

Links please?

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Officially at least the process is that there are 4 bidders and competitive tendering will determine the winner who will build the South Wales Metro based on the best bid/best value bid following the criteria laid out - which of course is all very secret squirrel stuff. So are you saying that the Welsh Government has specified Light Rail whilst keeping it all secret from the pubic?

I think it's come from the constant insinuations in one of the rail magazines - I think it was Today's Railways - that they'd already made up their mind unofficially that they'd prefer it to be light rail. But the very fact that the idea has been planted was a suggestion. It's like a comment someone else made in the first class thread about Grayling leaking policies out slowly so that people won't be as disappointed when it's officially confirmed

Where do you get that idea from?
part of the proposals are to wire the whole Valleys network, not close it.

And I think light rail has been ruled out due to future possible freight use.

Converting to light rail would be seen as a downgrade. It would be a closing of the lines as far as the National Rail network is concerned, in the same way Oldham Loop was. And I don't know if it has been ruled out - it was definitely in the consultation and I've not heard anything from that

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think it's come from the constant insinuations in one of the rail magazines - I think it was Today's Railways - that they'd already made up their mind unofficially that they'd prefer it to be light rail. But the very fact that the idea has been planted was a suggestion. It's like a comment someone else made in the first class thread about Grayling leaking policies out slowly so that people won't be as disappointed when it's officially confirmed




Converting to light rail would be seen as a downgrade. It would be a closing of the lines as far as the National Rail network is concerned, in the same way Oldham Loop was. And I don't know if it has been ruled out - it was definitely in the consultation and I've not heard anything from that

Given the curretn trend for Government Ministers to lose the plot completely on Transport policy don't be surprised if a guided busway is the new hot favorite down at the Bay........

 

[Rhydgaled]

Given the curretn trend for Government Ministers to lose the plot completely on Transport policy don't be surprised if a guided busway is the new hot favorite down at the Bay........

They can have a guided busway from Cardiff Bay to Cardiff Central if they want, as long as we get some straight-EMUs (Electrostars or similar) and enough wires for them to run Maesteg - Cardiff - Ebbw Vale, Ebbw Vale - Newport, Merthyr/Treherbert/Rhymney - Cardiff - Barry - Bridgend and Merthyr/Treherbert/Rhymney - Barry Island by about 2025 plus Swansea Docks - GlynNeath - Aberdare - Radyr - Fairwater - Cardiff and Swansea-Cardiff-Bristol a year or two later.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Rumour doing the rounds is were down to two bidders left (Abeilio and Arriva) and Welsh Government has a preferred bidder already however DFT under orders from Grayling are putting scanners in the works as Garyling is now not happy at the assumed transfer of powers to Cardiff Bay.

Also MTR was dismissed due to "irregularities in their bid" which included ATO on the Cambrian Coast!

 

[HH]

...scanners in the works...

A photo opportunity?

 

[Parallel]

Rumour doing the rounds is were down to two bidders left (Abeilio and Arriva) and Welsh Government has a preferred bidder already however DFT under orders from Grayling are putting scanners in the works as Garyling is now not happy at the assumed transfer of powers to Cardiff Bay.

Also MTR was dismissed due to "irregularities in their bid" which included ATO on the Cambrian Coast!

I just get the feeling that it's going to go to Abeilio. If they do win, there's going to be a lot of stations and trains to repaint...

Forgive my ignorance, what is ATO?

 

[craigybagel]

I just get the feeling that it's going to go to Abeilio. If they do win, there's going to be a lot of stations and trains to repaint...

Forgive my ignorance, what is ATO?

Automatic Train Operation. If (and I hate indulging in railway rumours) it's true that they wanted this then it's definitely a good thing they've lost. But it does sound so comically inept, I'm sure it's either the wild kind of rumour someone started for a joke, or a Chinese whisper (forgive the pun) from somebody who's looked at Wikipedia and noticed how MTR use ATO in Hong Kong and it's spread to being they'll use it on ATW.

It's a sealed bid - nobody who is allowed to leak knows who is going to win. All the rumours a few weeks ago were the opposite, that MTR had it sewn up. All we can do is wait and see.

 

[gareth950]

Rumour doing the rounds is were down to two bidders left (Abeilio and Arriva) and Welsh Government has a preferred bidder already however DFT under orders from Grayling are putting scanners in the works as Garyling is now not happy at the assumed transfer of powers to Cardiff Bay.

Also MTR was dismissed due to "irregularities in their bid" which included ATO on the Cambrian Coast!

Everyone knows Grayling is against any devolution of railway powers to any part of the UK - but the fact is that it's too late for him to object to it this late in the franchise award process. Welsh Govt / TfW have done all the work up until now on assessment & evaluation of all the bids - putting out expectations of the bidders etc.

The fact is, he's an MP from Epsom in Surrey and knows f*** all about the rail needs of Wales, and cares much less. His ignorant comments to Wales Online when he 'visited' Llanishen on a photo op with now ex-Cardiff North Tory MP Craig Williams in January showed his ignorant and pathetic attitude towards Wales.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/what-happened-transport-minister-joined-12453520

He needs to stop opposing and delaying this franchise award, devolve the powers to TfW that were promised over 3 years ago and let TfW get on with sending out the ITT, whether it's made public or not.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Neither Abellio nor Arriva have any construction interests, so if it is either of them they must have a construction partner for the Metro.
That was why I thought the bid involving Amey (with Keolis) had legs.
MTR is also a property company and knows about major infrastructure projects.

I know devolution excites passions, but I expect Grayling is facing opposition from several quarters about the transfer of Valley lines to WG control, and on the franchise generally.
It's also not true that rail devolution is a done deal politically, or it would have happened already.
How do people think a 15-year deal is going to be done without a large amount of UK funding committed by the Treasury, with a significant risk attached?
There are also English counties involved, whose MPs won't want to give Cardiff a free hand with the franchise in their areas.

 

[PHILIPE]

Neither Abellio nor Arriva have any construction interests, so if it is either of them they must have a construction partner for the Metro.
That was why I thought the bid involving Amey (with Keolis) had legs.
MTR is also a property company and knows about major infrastructure projects.

I know devolution excites passions, but I expect Grayling is facing opposition from several quarters about the transfer of Valley lines to WG control, and on the franchise generally.
It's also not true that rail devolution is a done deal politically, or it would have happened already.
How do people think a 15-year deal is going to be done without a large amount of UK funding committed by the Treasury, with a significant risk attached?
There are also English counties involved, whose MPs won't want to give Cardiff a free hand with the franchise in their areas.

Lets cut out the dithering to enable things to proceed

 

[Gareth Marston]

Neither Abellio nor Arriva have any construction interests, so if it is either of them they must have a construction partner for the Metro.
That was why I thought the bid involving Amey (with Keolis) had legs.
MTR is also a property company and knows about major infrastructure projects.

I know devolution excites passions, but I expect Grayling is facing opposition from several quarters about the transfer of Valley lines to WG control, and on the franchise generally.
It's also not true that rail devolution is a done deal politically, or it would have happened already.
How do people think a 15-year deal is going to be done without a large amount of UK funding committed by the Treasury, with a significant risk attached?
There are also English counties involved, whose MPs won't want to give Cardiff a free hand with the franchise in their areas.

Another one of the rumors doing the rounds (its appeared on the North Wales Coast website) is that the preferred bidder has put in a very Cardiff centric bid with very little outside of commuting distance of Cardiff for anyone to get excited about. This will be very ironic if Grayling is championing the Tory Marches against Big City bias.....

 

[emoaconr]

The Wales/England border is a natural headache for the railway. Is the DfT still considering removing station management from the W&B and transferring it to non-serving franchises (XC-style)? Seems a silly idea in the face of this DfT/WG spat. Could we end up with something like this rather crude map I have knocked up?

 

[daikilo]

The Wales/England border is a natural headache for the railway. Is the DfT still considering removing station management from the W&B and transferring it to non-serving franchises (XC-style)? Seems a silly idea in the face of this DfT/WG spat. Could we end up with something like this rather crude map I have knocked up?

Well, it's anything but a crude map, but I don't see why so many stations should be given to LM when they have no operations there, NR maybe. If it is an attempt to leave anything in England to an "English" TOC, please remember that the TOC name "Wales and Borders" is intended to mean "Wales and adjacent England", and includes some operations which are not so adjacent like Manchester.

Personally, I wouldn't move any stations unless a given route changes TOC.

And the premise that W&B is a head-ache is also wrong, even more if there is an alignment between TOC and NR routes.

 

[craigybagel]

Indeed, it's only a headache in the eyes of politicians - the franchise is perfectly fine as it is straddling the border.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, it's anything but a crude map, but I don't see why so many stations should be given to LM when they have no operations there, NR maybe. If it is an attempt to leave anything in England to an "English" TOC, please remember that the TOC name "Wales and Borders" is intended to mean "Wales and adjacent England", and includes some operations which are not so adjacent like Manchester.

Personally, I wouldn't move any stations unless a given route changes TOC.
And the premise that W&B is a head-ache is also wrong, even more if there is an alignment between TOC and NR routes.

The only relevant thing in the consultation was the putative transfer of Chester, Shrewsbury and Hereford stations to West Coast or West Midlands franchises.
I'd say it is less likely than staying with W&B, especially as it seems W&B is keeping its current routes (plus adding Chester-Liverpool).

Also remember the WG fancies the idea of WG itself (ie TfW) managing its stations, similar to how TfGM is proposing to take over Northern stations in its area.
Again, if English stations are included in this it raises the issue of governance from Cardiff Bay.
The WG seems to want to reduce the scope of the franchise to train operation only (like Merseyrail and London Overground), with the rest under TfW management.
That also presents problems for DfT approval for the new franchise.

 

[gareth950]

The Wales/England border is a natural headache for the railway. Is the DfT still considering removing station management from the W&B and transferring it to non-serving franchises (XC-style)? Seems a silly idea in the face of this DfT/WG spat. Could we end up with something like this rather crude map I have knocked up?

Unless the Operator and Development Partner (ODP) of the new franchise includes plans and the necessary funding to redevelop Cardiff Central in their bid, it needs to be taken over by Network Rail. A do nothing approach with the station is not an option, it's not fit for the future.
I also agree there's no point in transferring stations to TOCs who have no services calling there just for geographical purity. There will be no incentive for the stations to even be maintained.

Again, if English stations are included in this it raises the issue of governance from Cardiff Bay

I'm sure that arrangements have been put in place where MPs from English constituencies covered by the W&B franchise will be able to directly report concerns to Welsh Govt/TfW who must take into account their concerns.

 

[emoaconr]

Well, it's anything but a crude map, but I don't see why so many stations should be given to LM when they have no operations there, NR maybe. If it is an attempt to leave anything in England to an "English" TOC, please remember that the TOC name "Wales and Borders" is intended to mean "Wales and adjacent England", and includes some operations which are not so adjacent like Manchester.

Personally, I wouldn't move any stations unless a given route changes TOC.

And the premise that W&B is a head-ache is also wrong, even more if there is an alignment between TOC and NR routes.

I don't wish any stations to move.

The political border is a headache. It simply should not exist to cause a problem. I agree that it is nothing more than a make believe invisible line that means nothing. But in the political state of affairs, unfortunately it is coming to affect natural crossings of what is a single economy. I grew up in Wrexham, I understand the importance of our network.

I don't know what Mr Grayling is up to with his hesitations with W&B, but he is hell bent on making local decisions as difficult as possible. I agree, W&B should remain just that. I am thinking hypothetically what on earth would happen should policy dictate this.

And yes, by my standards, that map is indeed crude!! [emoji5]

 

[Astradyne]

Neither Abellio nor Arriva have any construction interests, so if it is either of them they must have a construction partner for the Metro.
That was why I thought the bid involving Amey (with Keolis) had legs.
MTR is also a property company and knows about major infrastructure projects.

I know devolution excites passions, but I expect Grayling is facing opposition from several quarters about the transfer of Valley lines to WG control, and on the franchise generally.
It's also not true that rail devolution is a done deal politically, or it would have happened already.
How do people think a 15-year deal is going to be done without a large amount of UK funding committed by the Treasury, with a significant risk attached?
There are also English counties involved, whose MPs won't want to give Cardiff a free hand with the franchise in their areas.

Abellio's construction partner on the bid is Carillion and Arriva's construction partner on the bid is Costain. MTR is partnered with Bam Nuttall

 

[Rhydgaled]

Rumour doing the rounds is were down to two bidders left (Abeilio and Arriva) and Welsh Government has a preferred bidder already however DFT under orders from Grayling are putting scanners in the works as Garyling is now not happy at the assumed transfer of powers to Cardiff Bay.

Also MTR was dismissed due to "irregularities in their bid" which included ATO on the Cambrian Coast!

I didn't think they had issued the Invitation To Tender yet; rather premature to be discounting bidders before they have had a chance to submit their tenders isn't it? But, if by some crazy thing (and ATO on the Cambrian coast certainly fits the bill, whyever could that be?), we are down to a two-way battle between Arriva and Abeilio that could be good news given your earlier suggestion that it was MTR who wanted to split off the ValleyLines network and turn it into a segregated light-rail operation.

Unless the Operator and Development Partner (ODP) of the new franchise includes plans and the necessary funding to redevelop Cardiff Central in their bid, it needs to be taken over by Network Rail. A do nothing approach with the station is not an option, it's not fit for the future.

I thought Cardiff Central was going to be a seperately funded Network Rail project anyway, regardless of who the station operator is. As for what is needed, I think the current station is actually rather good; toilets aside one of the best in Wales. Yes it could do with more queuing space to handle rugby matches and possibly a new footbridge (or two) at the end(s) of the platforms but nothing that justifies the wholesale demolition of the most complete GWR major city station of its era the artist's impressions have suggested.

 

[gareth950]

I didn't think they had issued the Invitation To Tender yet; rather premature to be discounting bidders before they have had a chance to submit their tenders isn't it? But, if by some crazy thing (and ATO on the Cambrian coast certainly fits the bill, whyever could that be?), we are down to a two-way battle between Arriva and Abeilio that could be good news given your earlier suggestion that it was MTR who wanted to split off the ValleyLines network and turn it into a segregated light-rail operation.

From the massive hints that Welsh Govt have been putting out about their preferred direction for the future of the valley lines, it's not just MTR who want(ed) to split off the valley lines into a segregated light rail network.

I thought Cardiff Central was going to be a seperately funded Network Rail project anyway, regardless of who the station operator is. As for what is needed, I think the current station is actually rather good; toilets aside one of the best in Wales. Yes it could do with more queuing space to handle rugby matches and possibly a new footbridge (or two) at the end(s) of the platforms but nothing that justifies the wholesale demolition of the most complete GWR major city station of its era the artist's impressions have suggested.

If passenger numbers are to increase at Cardiff Central as expected, funnelling passengers from trains into the subway below, as well as passengers at the same time being funnelled into the subway to get up onto the trains, is surely an accident waiting to happen.

Crowd control and queing to enter the station wouldn't be accepted by the public outside of stadium events.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If passenger numbers are to increase at Cardiff Central as expected, funnelling passengers from trains into the subway below, as well as passengers at the same time being funnelled into the subway to get up onto the trains, is surely an accident waiting to happen.

Crowd control and queing to enter the station wouldn't be accepted by the public outside of stadium events.

Hence my suggestion of a new footbridge (or two) at the end(s) of the platforms, to take pressure off the subway.

My prefered option would be to widen the subway that the lifts (NOT the stairs) lead into and add some stairs to and from that subway allowing the current main subway (with the classic tiles) to be used for interchange and passengers leaving the station only (by setting the ticket barriers to one-way). I'm not sure whether there is empty space under the tracks in order to do that though, or if the subways are running through an otherwise solid embankment.

Either way, no smashing up of the beautiful station buildings (including the platform ones), canopies and tiled subway that make up this listed building please.

 

[PaulHarding150]

My prefered option would be to widen the subway that the lifts (NOT the stairs) lead into and add some stairs to and from that subway allowing the current main subway (with the classic tiles) to be used for interchange and passengers leaving the station only (by setting the ticket barriers to one-way). I'm not sure whether there is empty space under the tracks in order to do that though, or if the subways are running through an otherwise solid embankment.

I'm no engineer but widening a tunnel seems like an incredibly difficult project. especially one that has ten railway tracks above it and is in a building used by 13 million people pa.

Don't get me wrong I know that any substantial work at any big station will have massive short term disruption for customers, but I can't see your option working I'm afraid.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm no engineer but widening a tunnel seems like an incredibly difficult project.

Which is why my earlier post (#1013) only mentioned the footbridge(s) option, because I'm not sure how the place is structured down at subway level. If it is just a big empty space with walls to keep passengers in a certain area it might not be all that difficult, but if the other side of the subway wall is solid rubble widening the subway is impossible and it'll have to be the platform-end footbridge option to avoid unacceptable destruction.

 

[Llanigraham]

From photos seen on the Cardiff Now & Then FB page, originally the line through the station was at ground level but the whole route was raised onto an embankment, so presumably there is "made-up" ground behind the walls.

 

[Rich McLean]

I have checked out whoever said we were down to two bidders and it's not true.

Nothing about a disqualification either. It's business as usual.

 

[gareth950]

I have checked out whoever said we were down to two bidders and it's not true.

Nothing about a disqualification either. It's business as usual.

Well when the whole process is being carried out in top secret, with nothing but carefully worded press statements coming from Ken Skates, rumours will circulate.

Apparently, when the ITT is eventually released, it will only be circulated to the remaining bidders under a 'secret classification' and no info will be released into the public domain about it at all, right up until the franchise award announcement.

So that's another 5 months + for rumours and speculation.