Years worth of rail card misuse finally found

[ottrainman97]

Hi all , I have been caught today for travelling without an annual gold card when the ticket says I have one.

I have been doing this for years on gwr and often doing it with child tickets when I am an adult. All together I would say 50-75 journeys have been done like this. I gave him my real address and details. I am expecting a letter to my house in a couple of weeks.

What is the expected outcome of this ?

Possible punishment etc ?

 

[TheJester]

GWR seem quite reasonable in offering out of court settlements, given the level of evasion/fraud it won’t be cheap to settle with them.

Other, more experienced members will be along shortly to advise.

 

[ottrainman97]

GWR seem quite reasonable in offering out of court settlements, given the level of evasion/fraud it won’t be cheap to settle with them.

Other, more experienced members will be along shortly to advise.

Thank you for the quick response.
How much could you estimate for an out of court settlement ?

 

[AndroidBango]

Thank you for the quick response.
How much could you estimate for an out of court settlement ?

If you work out the cost of an Anytime single for each journey, then you'll have a rough idea. (You won't get any credit for the fares you have paid).

 

[TheJester]

You need to calculate the full anytime single journey price for each evasion, and then add on £150 - £250 for GWR’s investigation costs.

Which stations were your journeys between?

 

[Gloster]

IF you are offered an out-of-court settlement the railway’s calculation is likely to be based on the full Anytime Single fare for each and every journey made; for a return journey you will pay one single fare for the outward journey and one for the return. No allowance will be made for any fare paid or for any railcard held. The railway will then add its investigation costs, which start at £100-150, but can be hefty for complicated investigations. The railway would expect the whole sum to be paid in full in a very few weeks from the offer.

 

[ottrainman97]

Thanks all for your help.
My journeys were from varying stations.

What do you think the likelihood is for a out of court settlement

 

[notmyrealname]

I think that would be hard for the experts to advise on if they don't know how much money is involved.

You need to work out how much anyway in case you're offered an OOC settlement, so you can make sure you have the money available to pay it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

My journeys were from varying stations.

What do you think the likelihood is for a out of court settlement

Who can say? Depends on how positively you engage with GWR's investigation team.

If the journeys in question were from, say, Reading in Berkshire to Central London, the undiscounted Anytime Day Single is currently £30.60, for each one-way journey.

So 50-75 similar journeys, and you could easily be looking at a couple of grand, plus the admin fees.

If these were return journeys, maybe twice that.

Fares for shorter distance journeys might well be less.

So, whilst successfully negotiating a so-called "out of court" settlement is never guaranteed, if you were offered one, please note that it's likely that you'd be expected to pay the amount requested in one lump sum.

BTW, providing rather vague answers when you've come on here, doesn't particularly help you get the best general advice. In particular, please note the below... Good luck!

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Many members will try to assist you, but please bear in mind the following: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations where you started & finished your journey; The stations where you changed trains...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ottrainman97]

Hi sorry for being vague I wasn’t trying to be rude.

I have just worked out all my journey added together with anytime adult prices comes to 450 pounds.

Will this mean I am likely to be taken to court or is an out of court settlement likely.

I have the means to pay this in full now including the 150 on top will this help my case in trying to avoid a criminal record or will I for sure get one ?

 

[TheJester]

You said you had evaded 75 times. You’ve calculated you evaded £450 worth of fares, meaning the average ticket cost was £6.

I’m not sure this is correct.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@ottrainman97. If you engage positively with the train company's investigation team, reckon there's a decent chance of you being offered a so-called "out of court" settlement and so avoid being taken to court. That's not an absolute guarantee, though, as they hold all the cards!

By all means do come back on here when you actually receive the letter that you're now expecting, and if you can then upload a copy of same, with your name and address details and case reference number suitably covered up/obscured, that would be particularly useful.

You said you had evaded 75 times. You’ve calculated you evaded £450 worth of fares, meaning the average ticket cost was £6.

Could possibly be short distance journeys within the Berkshire area, not necessarily Reading into London.

 

[ikcdab]

If its 50 to 75 times, then they must have been very short journeys....can you give any examples?
My guess is that GWR will probably offer an out of court settlement for this amount, but nothing is certain until they write to you.

 

[ottrainman97]

If its 50 to 75 times, then they must have been very short journeys....can you give any examples?
My guess is that GWR will probably offer an out of court settlement for this amount, but nothing is certain until they write to you.

Hi sorry yes many journeys were Henley to Maidenhead for example or datchet to Windsor only 10 ish Maidenhead to London journeys

@ottrainman97. If you engage positively with the train company's investigation team, reckon there's a decent chance of you being offered a so-called "out of court" settlement and so avoid being taken to court. That's not an absolute guarantee, though, as they hold all the cards!

By all means do come back on here when you actually receive the letter that you're now expecting, and if you can then upload a copy of same, with your name and address details and case reference number suitably covered up/obscured, that would be particularly useful.


Could possibly be short distance journeys within the Berkshire area, not necessarily Reading into London.

I will post again when I get the letter thank you.

Sorry if I am being silly or obnoxious but what do you think the likely hood of a criminal record is.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Hi sorry yes many journeys were Henley to Maidenhead for example or datchet to Windsor only 10 ish Maidenhead to London journeys

So noted. Henley to Maidenhead is currently something like £8.50 for an Anytime Day Single, Datchet to Windsor and Eton Riverside is £2.60 and Maidenhead to London Paddington is, I believe, £15.70.

You'll know just how many journeys were made without paying the correct fares / inappropriate discounts, and so will the train company's investigation team if you've bought the tickets online using the likes of Trainline.

 

[furlong]

(Basically GWR prosecutes when it runs out of alternative options - so don't worry about this if you're intent on agreeing to an alternative.)

 

[ottrainman97]

(Basically GWR prosecutes when it runs out of alternative options - so don't worry about this if you're intent on agreeing to an alternative.)

Hi thank you. Sorry if I’m being simple but does this mean prosecution is last resort so if I offer to pay any fine they set me a criminal record is unlikely ?

 

[ikcdab]

Hi thank you. Sorry if I’m being simple but does this mean prosecution is last resort so if I offer to pay any fine they set me a criminal record is unlikely ?

yes.
On a tecnicality, an out of court settlement is not a fine. Only a court can impose a fine. An out of court settlement is just a sum of money they ask for to stop going to court and in that case you would not get a criminal record.

 

[ottrainman97]

yes.
On a tecnicality, an out of court settlement is not a fine. Only a court can impose a fine. An out of court settlement is just a sum of money they ask for to stop going to court and in that case you would not get a criminal record.

Thank you very much for this , it wa every helpful and would you have any idea of the likely hood of being offered this out of court settlement?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Sorry if I’m being simple but does this mean prosecution is last resort so if I offer to pay any fine they set me a criminal record is unlikely ?

You'll likely be asked to pay all the incorrect/underpaid fares, plus a three figure sum towards the train company's investigation and admin fees. This is not a fine. Only courts can impose fines, and you'll of course then have a criminal record if found guilty, which might just be for the one 'slam dunk' occasion when you got caught.

Thank you very much for this , it wa every helpful and would you have any idea of the likely hood of being offered this out of court settlement?

You've now asked this more than once. It's more likely (than not) that you will be, but obvs it's not guaranteed.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi thank you. Sorry if I’m being simple but does this mean prosecution is last resort so if I offer to pay any fine they set me a criminal record is unlikely ?

If you read the GWR revenue protection policy pdf doc on their website you can see what they say in terms of their approach to this sort of thing.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

To be blunt your in a bit of trouble here. It sounds as though you've been evading your fares on an industrial scale over the years and if a case like this doesn't end up in court you have to wonder how serious a case would need to be to end up being prosecuted. That said GWR are normally one of the 'easier' train companies to deal with when it comes to thsi sort of thing.

What happens next is that GWR Prosecutions Department will write to you. The letter will typically take a few weeks to arrive although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GWR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and GWR are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court if they want to.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. GWR will be able to search your online ticket purchase history and this might make it harder and more expensive to obtain a settlement. Also be aware that GWR might deal with the single case where you were caught and then contact you at a later date about the other instances, once they have researched your ticket purchasing history.

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the tickets you did purchase. In addition you will have to pay GWR's admin costs in dealing with the case, this is typically around £150 but is likely to be more as your case is potentially more complex for them to investigate.

Here's a link to GWR's Revenue Protection Policy which you might want to read.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/revenue-protection-policy/GWR-Revenue-Protection-Policy-January-2023.pdf

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[RPI]

If you work out the cost of an Anytime single for each journey, then you'll have a rough idea. (You won't get any credit for the fares you have paid).

Just to add, GWR generally do give credit for fares paid in any settlement.