Bombardier vs Siemens

[pemma]

All modern trains seem to be extraordinarily heavy, which seems ironic to me in view of fuel costs and Carbon emissions. Is it because of EU Legislation or something, or is it just that designers don't seem to think that impact on track and energy consumption is anything really to be too worried about?

If we take 4 classes of 100mph DMUs since BR: 170, 172, 175 and 185 - the 170 meets Sprinter requirements for line speeds but has poor acceleration, the 175s are heavier but have better acceleration and the 185s are even heavier.

The 172s are lighter than the 170s and have better acceleration, so it looks like it's taken 20 years to develop a 100mph DMU which doesn't have operating advantages over the Sprinter, which is why I said I don't think we can produce a 125mph Sprinter equivalent.

 

[DownSouth]

Alstom did indeed withdraw, they decided they didnt have a suitable commuter model and the cost of developing one would put them at a financial disadvantage against the other bids.

Heh, I guess Junipers would be a bit odd...

They would use an X'Trapolis family model rather than a Juniper, as they entered for Thameslink unsuccessfully. It's an excellent commuter model, so I'm unsure where this idea they didn't have anything suitable came from.

The problem with the X'Trapolis UK they submitted for Thameslink was that it was too radical, going for an unconventional articulation technique and 16 metre carriages. The X'Trapolis 100 used in Melbourne is a great train (still in production on the second order) and is much more conventional (i.e. not articulated, normal carriage lengths but still retaining computer control) than the X'Trapolis UK proposal. All they need to do is decide whether to propose two doors on each side as is normal in Britain, or to be bold and propose three doors per side for more efficient commuter movement.

The big plus with an X'Trapolis model is that they could be constructed in France, hauled through the Chunnel and then interior fitout done in Britain, as they do in Australia (but transported on ships) with those ordered for Melbourne. That part of things could be contracted a proper British company (as opposed to a factory owned by a Germany-based subsidiary of a Canada-based multinational) specialising in just the interior work.

 

[Schnellzug]

X'Trapolis? Holy cow. I thought Movia and Flexity was bad enough.

 

[Chris125]

I personally would prefer the Crossrail trains to be developed by Bombardier or do as a Siemens/Bombardier cooperation as I think that Siemens will have enough on it's hands in delivering the Thameslink trains.

I'd argue the opposite is true - its safe to assume that Siemens have the manufacturing capability to deliver both fleets, and going through the commissioning process with one design will should save a lot of effort while minisming risk; thats why the winner of one has always been the favourite for both.

After all, just getting the Crossrail fleet working with ERTMS and PED's will be hard enough, but if they cant benefit from the work that will already be underway on the Thameslink stock to improve reliability and allow ATO working then that task will be even harder.

Of course it doesnt help Bombardier's cause that their reputation for getting new (or sometimes just existing) designs into service on time and reliably is so poor. Siemens are in no way perfect, but on past performance i know who i'd put my money on to deliver a more reliable, technically superior product.

Chris

 

[RobShipway]

I'd argue the opposite is true - its safe to assume that Siemens have the manufacturing capability to deliver both fleets, and going through the commissioning process with one design will should save a lot of effort while minisming risk; thats why the winner of one has always been the favourite for both.

After all, just getting the Crossrail fleet working with ERTMS and PED's will be hard enough, but if they cant benefit from the work that will already be underway on the Thameslink stock to improve reliability and allow ATO working then that task will be even harder.

Of course it doesnt help Bombardier's cause that their reputation for getting new (or sometimes just existing) designs into service on time and reliably is so poor. Siemens are in no way perfect, but on past performance i know who i'd put my money on to deliver a more reliable, technically superior product.

Chris

Deep down I agree with your comments above Chris, but hope that Siemens do not get it or get forced in some way to work in partnership with Bombardier as I think a clause should be within the Crossrail procurement that the trains are assembled at least within the UK. I believe correct me if I am wrong, that the requirement to be assembled in the UK has been used before on contracts? Wasn't the original Cl175/Cl180/Juniper/Pendolino orders done on this basis?

 

[gordonthemoron]

it would be nice if Bombardier offered something newer (and more reliable) than the dodgy Electrostars

 

[Eagle]

it would be nice if Bombardier offered something newer (and more reliable) than the dodgy Electrostars

They will soon, it's called the Aventra. The 379 is likely to be the last of the Electrostars.

It was what they submitted for the Thameslink order and what they've likely submitted for Crossrail too. Even if they lose that I can foresee they'll still make them for the UK as and when.

 

[Chris125]

The 379 is apparently quite different from the 377's, hence the haggling wth Southern over their order - is that because they are like the 380's, effectively an Aventra testbed using much of the same technology, or just an updated Electrostar?

Chris

 

[WatcherZero]

Think of them as version 377.5, but what they want is just a normal 377.0 to make maintenence and fleet management easier.

 

[HSTEd]

So you want a 125mph DMU that isn't heavier than a 158 and has the same or better acceleration? Is that possible?

Well SP differentials are available for use by Cl170s which means that 45 tonnes per vehicle is acceptable.

A class 180 has the performance a 125mph "Hyper Sprinter" requires and as I understand it uses steel bodies, perhaps significant weight savings could be obtained by switching to aluminium extrusions or perhaps even shortening the vehicles to 20m.

A Cl180 vehicle only weighs 5 tonnes too much, it doesn't sound like an impossible challenge.

 

[Class377/5]

The 379 is apparently quite different from the 377's, hence the haggling wth Southern over their order - is that because they are like the 380's, effectively an Aventra testbed using much of the same technology, or just an updated Electrostar?

Chris

The 380 is actually a 350.5/450.5. Half way between the current Desiro and the Desiro City. Will be interesting to see how that affects the 350/3 & 350/4 now on order.

(350/4 announcement - http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/about-ft...land-and-scotland-to-benefit-from-new-trains/)

The Aventra is an Electrostar mk2. But an Electrostar is a mk2 Networker. It's that sort of leap forward with the Adventra.

Think of them as version 377.5, but what they want is just a normal 377.0 to make maintenence and fleet management easier.

Yeah. Get a 379 body, fill with 377 parts and you get a 377/6.

 

[HSTEd]

Well I thought the Cl379 was the "Electrostar II"

So the Aventra is the "Electrostar III"

Or should I say the "Networker IV" - Networker IV does sound cooler.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 350/3 and 350/4 should be identical to the 350/2 as they are options on the existing contract. Thats not to say a small number of parts may not have changed due to supplier issues or minor safety/reliability issues.

 

[Yew]

Well I thought the Cl379 was the "Electrostar II"

So the Aventra is the "Electrostar III"

Or should I say the "Networker IV" - Networker IV does sound cooler.

But the networker was developed from a a unit based on the mk3, so maybe it should be the British Rail Mk3-VI

 

[Chris125]

The 380 is actually a 350.5/450.5. Half way between the current Desiro and the Desiro City. Will be interesting to see how that affects the 350/3 & 350/4 now on order.

Thats what i mean - is the Bombardier 379 like the Siemens 380, effectively a test run for that manufacturers Thameslink/Crossrail technology, or is it just an updated Electrostar?

Or worse, is the Aventra just a 379 in a different body and on lightweight bogies, without the sort of development in technology that the Desiro City offers?

Chris

 

[Class377/5]

Thats what i mean - is the Bombardier 379 like the Siemens 380, effectively a test run for that manufacturers Thameslink/Crossrail technology, or is it just an updated Electrostar?

Or worse, is the Aventra just a 379 in a different body and on lightweight bogies, without the sort of development in technology that the Desiro City offers?

Chris

Yes basically. The Adventra does contain tech that isn't on the Electrostar tho. It's Bombardier mixing all the best/working bits of their various international fleets and putting them into a single product.

With the Desiro City, it's more a development with newer tech replacing older designs.

Well I thought the Cl379 was the "Electrostar II"

So the Aventra is the "Electrostar III"

Or should I say the "Networker IV" - Networker IV does sound cooler.

No, the 379 is the Electrostar 1.5.

In a way the Adventra is the Networker version 3.

 

[ert47]

Well I thought the Cl379 was the "Electrostar II"

So the Aventra is the "Electrostar III"

Or should I say the "Networker IV" - Networker IV does sound cooler.

There is one thing that gets me. Although the Electrostar is the evolution of the Networker (through the Turbostar), why does the Siemens/CAF built class 332/333 look more like a Networker than an Electrostar?

 

[jopsuk]

Only in terms of the cabs, and even then, the original 357 Electrostars look like the later 168s, whilst the original 168s have the "Networker" cab. When you see the 379 and 365 sat next to each other at Cambridge, you can see the family resemblences.

 

[ert47]

Only in terms of the cabs, and even then, the original 357 Electrostars look like the later 168s, whilst the original 168s have the "Networker" cab. When you see the 379 and 365 sat next to each other at Cambridge, you can see the family resemblences.

Seeing the 375/376/377's next to the 465/466 at London Bridge, I cant really see it

Without the 168 link, I personally dont think the resemblance would be obvious.

 

[Eagle]

Without the 168 link, I personally dont think the resemblance would be obvious.

A 390 and an APT look completely different, despite one being a direct evolution of the other :P

 

[Schnellzug]

A 390 and an APT look completely different, despite one being a direct evolution of the other :P

Or this, the first generation Pendo:

 

[RobShipway]

Or this, the first generation Pendo:

I saw on the telly recently that the Government wants youngsters to be become more Engineers, yet what surprises me is that any procurment contract does not have a clause in it that the trains should be assembled here in the UK which ever manufaturer becomes the preferred bidder, then surely everyone wins?

 

[Eagle]

I saw on the telly recently that the Government wants youngsters to be become more Engineers, yet what surprises me is that any procurment contract does not have a clause in it that the trains should be assembled here in the UK which ever manufaturer becomes the preferred bidder, then surely everyone wins?

No, because that would mean Bombardier would win everything, because they own Derby plant. There are no other train assembly plants in the UK.

 

[Class377/5]

I saw on the telly recently that the Government wants youngsters to be become more Engineers, yet what surprises me is that any procurment contract does not have a clause in it that the trains should be assembled here in the UK which ever manufaturer becomes the preferred bidder, then surely everyone wins?

No, because that would mean Bombardier would win everything, because they own Derby plant. There are no other train assembly plants in the UK.

Aren't Hitchi planning to do that with the IEP depot? Train up locals to make and mend trains?

 

[RobShipway]

Aren't Hitchi planning to do that with the IEP depot? Train up locals to make and mend trains?

If Hitachi can do it why can't CAF, Siemens and others that do not have a UK base here do the same even if it is on a lease basis to start off with?

 

[Eagle]

If Hitachi can do it why can't CAF, Siemens and others that do not have a UK base here do the same even if it is on a lease basis to start off with?

Who would be paying through the nose for this new plant? Answer: passengers, through ticket price rises.

 

[Nym]

Or passengers, with inferior rolling stock...

 

[Schnellzug]

What it is is, the situation is really the opposite to what it is in the U.S., for instance; there, any operator receiving public funding must buy American, or at least must give American manufacturers preferential consideration, but EU Regulations, I think, for publicly funded authorities says that they have to be out out to tender for everyone equally, not just from the country concerned.

 

[HSTEd]

What it is is, the situation is really the opposite to what it is in the U.S., for instance; there, any operator receiving public funding must buy American, or at least must give American manufacturers preferential consideration, but EU Regulations, I think, for publicly funded authorities says that they have to be out out to tender for everyone equally, not just from the country concerned.

Nope.

This is more nonsense peddled by euroskeptics.
The bid that must be chosen is most economically advantageous, which allows you to take account of manufacturing in your home nation, the primary purpose of the regulations is to give the EU a stick to hit corrupt officials with who take kickbacks if the government in question does nothing.

 

[Schnellzug]

Nope.

This is more nonsense peddled by euroskeptics.
The bid that must be chosen is most economically advantageous, which allows you to take account of manufacturing in your home nation, the primary purpose of the regulations is to give the EU a stick to hit corrupt officials with who take kickbacks if the government in question does nothing.

I wasn't being eurosckeptical, I wasn't criticising it, necessarily.