Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Clitheroe service could then be made limited stop south of Blackburn by calling only at Bolton, Salford Crescent/Central and Manchester Victoria.

How would the good citizens of Darwen feel like not being part of this proposed service ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They're usually to stoned / high / drunk to realise.

Seriously though, I agree that missing out on Darwen and Bromley Cross would be a bad move.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It doesn't need redoubling throughout, indeed this is impossible fully due to a landslip at Sough Tunnel northern bore, and a bridge near Darwen.

Has any official Network Rail exercise ever been carried out to make cost evaluations of the Sough tunnel required works? What exactly is the problem with the bridge at Darwen....has any similar official costings on the remedial works required on it been prepared?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I don't think NR has ever looked at either, but I doubt they would as it is clear that neither are salient in the line's redoubling.

Sough Tunnel is a landslip however, I think it could be holding up quite a bit off the cutting and land above the tunnel. The bridge at Darwen I think is over the motorway, and only has room for just the single track.

 

[Whistler40145]

If you had a half hourly service between Bolton & Blackburn, then the Clitheroe service could be attached to the Todmorden Curve service @ Manchester Victoria & detached @ Blackburn.


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[MidnightFlyer]

But as has been established, a 'loop' service isn't being looked at.

 

[Whistler40145]

If it isn't going to be a loop service, where is it starting & where can the train reverse?


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[MidnightFlyer]

Manchester Victoria-Todmorden-Burnley Manchester Rd-Blackburn. All three through platforms at Blackburn are bi-di, so reversal there is easy enough, plus for quite long periods during an hour (I think 20 min overall) all three platforms aren't in use by a train.

 

[Inox]

The Clitheroe service could then be made limited stop south of Blackburn by calling only at Bolton, Salford Crescent/Central and Manchester Victoria.

.

I second what Paul's said above. don't forget (or over look) that about 40per cent of the people who use the Vic - Blackburn either get on at, or alight at Bromley Cross. Certainly more than get on / off at bolton.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Has any official Network Rail exercise ever been carried out to make cost evaluations of the Sough tunnel required works? What exactly is the problem with the bridge at Darwen....has any similar official costings on the remedial works required on it been prepared?

Checked this today, the bridge is single track-width only and crosses the M65 here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=dar...=-F8jGTR-fpPagSTtw_00dQ&cbp=12,70.79,,0,-0.34

 

[Inox]

just done the exact same thing. ha. yeah, looks only wide enough for single track. can' anyone tell me whether Sough tunnel is wide enough to accomodate double track - i assume it was double track once...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

just done the exact same thing. ha. yeah, looks only wide enough for single track. can' anyone tell me whether Sough tunnel is wide enough to accomodate double track - i assume it was double track once...

It was at one point. I think the track has been centred through the tunnel, I'm not too sure though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On 20th April 1968, I am informed that the Severn Valley Railway Society together with the Manchester Rail Travel Society, ran a "North West Tour" using doubled-headed Black Five's 44949 and 45110. The route passed through the Sough Tunnel and a file note was placed on record to say....

"Due to roof works under way in the Sough Tunnel, the train stopped prior to the tunnel, reversed over a crossover, then continued "WRONG LINE" through the tunnel"

Does this help matters?

 

[Sox]

It doesn't need redoubling throughout, indeed this is impossible fully due to a landslip at Sough Tunnel northern bore....

Hmm, I think you might have meant Sough Tunnel northern portal.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/34182

 

[trainmananthon]

Isn't sough tunnel that really long noisy tunnel between Darwen and Entwistle? Been through on a Pacer and plenty of sprinters before and the noise you hear in that tunnel is incredibly loud

 

[natureboy]

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9032186.Burnley_s_Todmorden_Curve_line_could_be_running_by_2013/

FASTER trains could be running between Burnley and Manchester as soon as December 2013 after engineers gave their seal of approval to the project.

Network Rail has completed a detailed assessment into whether the vital Todmorden Curve link could be reinstated.

Its engineers say the project, which would cost between £7.5million and £8million, is feasible, despite complications over the exact route. This means the only obstacle now is finding the cash.

Keith Lumley, of Network Rail, said: “It is good news. We are saying it can be done. From an engineering and railway point of view there is nothing to stop it being done.”

The company’s verdict is a major step forward for the project, which council bosses have made their top rail priority in Lancashire.

The 500-metre stretch of track known as the Todmorden Curve, which has not been used since the 1960s, connects the Burnley to Manchester lines and would cut the travel time to 40 minutes. Commuters currently have to change at Hebden Bridge.

A single line has been recommended, although it cannot follow the original path because the curve would be too sharp.

Mr Lumley said the engineers had ‘tinkered’ with the route and put forward an alternative.

The project has now completed the first three of eight stages, and the onus on Burnley and Lancashire council chiefs is now to bid for money and submit a final business case to the government.

If cash can be found by early next year, a detailed engineering stage will begin. The link could then be built, handed back to the rail industry, and begin operating by the end of 2013.

Lancashire County Council’s transport chief, Tim Ashton, said: “Out of seven schemes related to rail in Lancashire, this is our top one. I am fully supportive of it.”

Why wait so long???? It's such a short piece of line it could be relaid in one weekend possession. Dragging it out like this just gets everyone hacked off. It's so screamingly obvious to anyone it's needed so the sooner it's relaid the better. Why can't it be ready for December THIS year?
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They're usually to stoned / high / drunk to realise.

Seriously though, I agree that missing out on Darwen and Bromley Cross would be a bad move.

If what I suggested was to happen stations between Bolton and Blackburn would have a half hourly circular service. Anyone travelling from Hal i'th Wood/Darwen to Clitheroe would simply change at Blackburn. Early morning, late evening and Sunday trains could make extra stops as needed. I'm sure Ribble Valley customers would like a faster service to Man Vic! I also think extending this service to Hellifield and even Skipton (reversing at Hellifield) would be a great idea.
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I don't think NR has ever looked at either, but I doubt they would as it is clear that neither are salient in the line's redoubling.

Sough Tunnel is a landslip however, I think it could be holding up quite a bit off the cutting and land above the tunnel. The bridge at Darwen I think is over the motorway, and only has room for just the single track.

The bridge you refer to crosses the M65, but why is this a problem? Simply leave that bridge where it is and build another single-track bridge alongside. The motorway would have to be closed for a day or so while it's lifted into place but that not too difficult to cope with.
Sough Tunnel is a former double track bore so again this shouldn't be a serious problem. If land movement is SORT IT! If Victorian railway builders coped with problems like this over a hundred years earlier it should be a doddle for us in the 21st. century? :-?
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Single line is better than nothing. It would probably only need 4tph to use it - 2tph each way I would guess. Manchester - Tod might become quite high frequency!

They could run as circular services (up round Bolton and Blackburn then down again) to avoid clogging Victoria. Clitheroe services could be additional, and maybe run semi-fast (with a view to extending to Hellifield).

This is just what I suggested!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why wait so long???? It's such a short piece of line it could be relaid in one weekend possession. Dragging it out like this just gets everyone hacked off. It's so screamingly obvious to anyone it's needed so the sooner it's relaid the better. Why can't it be ready for December THIS year?

...

The bridge you refer to crosses the M65, but why is this a problem? Simply leave that bridge where it is and build another single-track bridge alongside. The motorway would have to be closed for a day or so while it's lifted into place but that not too difficult to cope with.
Sough Tunnel is a former double track bore so again this shouldn't be a serious problem. If land movement is SORT IT! If Victorian railway builders coped with problems like this over a hundred years earlier it should be a doddle for us in the 21st. century? :-?

There is still debate about where to put the crossover at the Todmorden end - the original curve cannot be fully replicated due to modern safety standards, so either it goes on the viaduct (expensive to maintain), or in the station (could potentially be disruptive), so then you have to move the westbound platform. Don't forget that you also have to timetable the route, then sort out staff rosters, among many other things...

Build another bridge alongside? Judging by this http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=dar...Ca7LQ_mKsjajhBsh36VWJw&cbp=12,139.31,,0,-8.58 and in particular this http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=dar....538086&hnear=Darwen,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=19 that would mean embankment widening. Along with the new bridge, it would send the cost through the roof, and I doubt it would be a short job. Also, closing the motorway would be highly disruptive: Blackburn and surroundings is far from the easiest area to navigate, and the motorway is very busy, especially in the peaks and weekends.

With regard to Sough, the track through the tunnel has been centralised. Redoubling would mean tearing it up, relaying and resignalling fully. Further, I would encourage just 'sorting' out a landslip. It was be disastrous to move it, then realise it was holding up several tons of land around the tunnel. It wouldn't be impossible for it to be holding up the entire cutting around the east and centre of the north portal. The line doesn't require full double-tracking. I would leave it with the current work plus Entwistle-Bromley Cross. That would be more than enough. Throwing money at the bridge at Darwen and Sough Tunnel would, to me, be disruptive and pointless.

 

[175001]

Just thought some of you might like to the see progress ongoing at Todmorden!

Great to see thinks progressing here.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is that the actual allignment or site access?

 

[175001]

I have no idea, but looks to me like the alignment! But saying that, could be both!

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

This also allows for another diversion between Manchester and Preston or even for the sleepers, if the plan goes the way I think it will.
Maybe a couple of circular services from a variety of destinations (Bolton and Blackburn as stated above) would be popular.

 

[Whistler40145]

I expect to see several charter train operators requesting routing from Manchester Victoria to Preston via Rochdale & Burnley via the Todmorden Curve, which when e.g. Preston to Manchester is shut, this could enable charter trains to continue running.


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[MidnightFlyer]

I expect to see several charter train operators requesting routing from Manchester Victoria to Preston via Rochdale & Burnley via the Todmorden Curve, which when e.g. Preston to Manchester is shut, this could enable charter trains to continue running.


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Or they could run via Westhoughton, Atherton or Chat Moss...
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This also allows for another diversion between Manchester and Preston or even for the sleepers, if the plan goes the way I think it will.
Maybe a couple of circular services from a variety of destinations (Bolton and Blackburn as stated above) would be popular.

How would the Todmorden Curve aid Sleepers? If Crewe-Preston is shut they tend to run via Chorley, or, if the amount of disruption is severe, they can run via the ECML. I can see no possible series of closures whereby the Todmorden Curve would actually be of any use.

What plan?

With regard to circular services, I am fairly confident services will run to and terminate at Blackburn ex-the Curve. Passengers from west of and Todmorden I would have thought would travel via Manchester for Bolton. From Burnley et al, if good connections can be made at Blackburn for the MCV via Darwen trains, then I think this would eliminate the need for direct circular trains, ditto Todmorden for places like Darwen; similarly in the other direction too.

Don't forget with circular services, if a train failed at say Burnley Manchester Rd bound for MCV via Darwen, that would disrupt the BBN-MCV run. If they are kept separate, they do not effect each other as much when things go wrong (i.e. one can fail without screwing up the other).

 

[Whistler40145]

I was meaning those charters e.g. Dining Trains etc that could go that way because of the route being scenic & to free up paths elsewhere.


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[PR1Berske]

Those are great photos.

I think the change here (and increased pressure for changes at Rossendale) suggest we at Western Lancashire will see the grand sum of nowt for years to come, sadly

 

[MidnightFlyer]

RAIL magazine did a feature on Lancashire's railway future a couple of issues ago. It found that, according to Lancs CC, the Skelmersdale rail link is a good future prospect and is being supported by the council, however, the Burscough Curves are seen at present to offer little, plus I don't think a compelling business case of any sort has been drawn up for them.

 

[PR1Berske]

RAIL magazine did a feature on Lancashire's railway future a couple of issues ago. It found that, according to Lancs CC, the Skelmersdale rail link is a good future prospect and is being supported by the council, however, the Burscough Curves are seen at present to offer little, plus I don't think a compelling business case of any sort has been drawn up for them.

Aaah yes, I flicked through that article, I remember now.

Interesting that Lancs CC are keeping up the pretence of being interested in west Lancs, I thought, given that their 10 year transport plan ended in 2004 :roll::roll:

What price the "guaranteed" stations at Cottam and/or Coppull, both of which were earmarked at one point with all the certainty they're now giving Skem ?

 

[natureboy]

Why does the new curve at TOD need to be built on a new alignment? What is wrong with replacing like for like? If it's on the tight side fit it with a check rail. You're not gonna need to do much over 20 mph as it it. The crossover can be south of TOD station thus platform 2 would be bi-directional.

 

[John55]

Aaah yes, I flicked through that article, I remember now.

Interesting that Lancs CC are keeping up the pretence of being interested in west Lancs, I thought, given that their 10 year transport plan ended in 2004 :roll::roll:

What price the "guaranteed" stations at Cottam and/or Coppull, both of which were earmarked at one point with all the certainty they're now giving Skem ?

Lancashire has a local transport plan like every other local authority. The current plan is the 3rd which was published in 2011 and follows those published in 2001 and 2006. The link is below.

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=5489&pageid=29612

At Coppull there is no hope of a station unless additional track(s) is restored on the WCML as NR will not allow stopping trains on the 2 track section. In addition has the station at Balshaw Lane been successful enough to justify reopening Coppull? It does not often seem to have that many passengers.
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Aaah yes, I flicked through that article, I remember now.

Interesting that Lancs CC are keeping up the pretence of being interested in west Lancs, I thought, given that their 10 year transport plan ended in 2004 :roll::roll:

What price the "guaranteed" stations at Cottam and/or Coppull, both of which were earmarked at one point with all the certainty they're now giving Skem ?

Lancashire has a local transport plan like every other local authority. The current plan is the 3rd which was published in 2011 and follows those published in 2001 and 2006. The link is below.

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=5489&pageid=29612

At Coppull there is no hope of a station unless additional track(s) is restored on the WCML as NR will not allow stopping trains on the 2 track section. In addition has the station at Balshaw Lane been successful enough to justify reopening Coppull? It does not often seem to have that many passengers.

 

[WatcherZero]

Why does the new curve at TOD need to be built on a new alignment? What is wrong with replacing like for like? If it's on the tight side fit it with a check rail. You're not gonna need to do much over 20 mph as it it. The crossover can be south of TOD station thus platform 2 would be bi-directional.

Because standards and safety margins have improved in the decades since it was removed. The original allignment doesnt meet modern codes.