Services advertised with a pretend destination

[Cherry_Picker]

So it doesn't happen in Manchester and Liverpool where stoppers are advertised as local stopping services but it does in Yorkshire where they are advertised as going to the second to last station?

I have no idea, but the fact that the management choose to deal with it in a different way suggests it might. Or that overcrowding on the stoppers might be more of an issue in Yorkshire than it is in Lancashire. Or that people in Yorkshire are quicker to complain. It could be one of many different reasons, but I still cant see what the problem is. Putting the penultimate station on an extremely slow stopping service which is going to a destination where huge numbers of people want to get to quickly works, and its much politer than posting GET ON THIS TRAIN, STUPID!" on the express.

 

[Failed Unit]

So it doesn't happen in Manchester and Liverpool where stoppers are advertised as local stopping services but it does in Yorkshire where they are advertised as going to the second to last station?

Are the Liverpool - Manchester stoppers overtaken?

 

[Robinson]

At Glasgow Central services round the Cathcart Circle are advertised on the departure boards as "Cathcart" followed by "Calls all stations Outer/Inner Circle".

By the way, the Poole-Waterloo semi-fasts are advertised as destination London Waterloo at Southampton Central.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Speaking of Clapham Junction, what do "non-gatwick express" services at Gatwick Airport state? Victoria or Clapham Junction?

It's a different situation on the Gatwick-London corridor, as there are a plethora of fares on this route and a choice of operators - tickets which are/are not valid on GatEx, also FCC-only fares.

 

[317666]

The Cambridge - Kings Cross slow services are shown as Finsbury Park, because the following semi-fast service does not overtake it, therefore if someone was travelling to Finsbury Park, and the slow service was the next train, it would be quicker to catch that than wait for the semi-fast which is 35 minutes later.

 

[northwichcat]

Are the Liverpool - Manchester stoppers overtaken?

I was meaning at Liverpool and Manchester, not specifically Liverpool-Manchester services.

The Liverpool-Manchester Airport service does leave Lime Street after the one of the stoppers and get to Oxford Road before it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or that overcrowding on the stoppers might be more of an issue in Yorkshire than it is in Lancashire.

On Manchester-Liverpool overcrowding is an issue on both the stoppers and the express services.

I've seen people at Huddersfield waiting on platform 8 for the TPE service to Leeds board the stoppers when they've seen how crowded the TPE service is.

its much politer than posting GET ON THIS TRAIN, STUPID!" on the express.

I don't know if it's still there but there was a big poster on the concourse at Huddersfield saying something like:

"ARE YOU TRAVELLING TO LEEDS?

Trains to Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough, Newcastle and York all operate as fast services to Leeds."

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Are the Liverpool - Manchester stoppers overtaken?

No they're not. Fast trains go at xx22 and xx52. Stoppers leave 3-5 minutes afterwards. By the time the slow train is reaching Deansgate, the next fast train has just about caught it up.

Works wonderfully until a train breaks down!

 

[Failed Unit]

I was meaning at Liverpool and Manchester, not specifically Liverpool-Manchester services.

The Liverpool-Manchester Airport service does leave Lime Street after the one of the stoppers and get to Oxford Road before it.

Chris the ref has answered my where I was driving at here, which was is the next train leaving Liverpool / Manchester going to get you to your destination first? This is not the situation at London Kings Cross where if you get the x06 to Cambridge it is overtaken by the x15 service so someone catching the x06 service could be caught out. The x21 service is not overtaken by the x45 so both of these show Cambridge.

* If my times are 30 minutes out the principle is still the same - I don't have the timetable in front of me.

They don't do the same at Kings Cross with Peterborough service, but maybe this is because of the different operators. If you want a fast service you use east coast. Where the Cambridges are both FCC.

 

[jha4ceb]

We have the same issues at Marylebone. The set on the stop blocks has the doors locked and doesn't even get posted on the screens until the set at the top of the platform has departed. Sometimes this means there are only three or four minutes to board a train, and while far from ideal it is a better situation than having lots of people on the wrong train.

This also seems to happen at Leeds. The xx00 to Knottingley and the xx05 to Nottingham often both leave from platform 17. Given the similarity of the destination's names, it's understandable that they don't unlock the xx05 until the xx00 has departed.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think this is advertised as Farnborough up until Southampton Airport Parkway as you would do better for stations after Farnborough by using the following fast service which passes the slow one whilst it is calling at Eastleigh.

Except at Southampton Central where it is still advertised as Waterloo. Allegedly this is for the benefit of Megatrain passengers, because they found that displaying Farnborough was confusing them.

There is an argument for the down train only being advertised as Southampton on leaving Waterloo, as for any station beyond Southampton you can leave Waterloo later and change at Southampton.

 

[northwichcat]

No they're not. Fast trains go at xx22 and xx52. Stoppers leave 3-5 minutes afterwards. By the time the slow train is reaching Deansgate, the next fast train has just about caught it up.

You've not taken in to consideration the Liverpool-Airport service which goes the other way but still goes to Oxford Road.

Also, if the stopper is on time the express is not as far behind as the timetable suggests. The timetable gives the impression the express is around 3 minutes behind but it's around 8 minutes behind, this is due to Northern adding in 5 minutes recovery time just before Oxford Road and TPE and EMT not.

 

[Failed Unit]

You've not taken in to consideration the Liverpool-Airport service which goes the other way but still goes to Oxford Road.

Also, if the stopper is on time the express is not as far behind as the timetable suggests. The timetable gives the impression the express is around 3 minutes behind but it's around 8 minutes behind, this is due to Northern adding in 5 minutes recovery time just before Oxford Road and TPE and EMT not.

But does it matter if the train is not overtaken. If for the sake of arguement the express leaves at 0000, the stopper at 0003 and then next express is at 0030 (and by the time they get to Manchester) the 0003 is just 2 minutes ahead. If someone arrives at Liverpool at 0001 they will still get to Manchester quicker than waiting for the 0030 (even if it was just 1 minute).

If you follow what I mean.

 

[Aictos]

And on the Leeds boards its Poppleton.

Agree that the Cambridge-KX stopper ought to be announced at Cambridge as Potters Bar.

I disagree, it should keep Foxton and Finsbury Park as these are the last stations before the terminating services on the slow Cambridges.

Passengers can thus be encouraged to use faster services to and from Cambridge.

 

[northwichcat]

But does it matter if the train is not overtaken.

Yes. If you're travelling from, for instance, Irlam to York there is time to change between the stopper and the express at Oxford Road but booking engines will not allow you to do that, they'll either suggest a 30 minute wait or an additional change at Piccadilly.

 

[Stephen55a1960]

It's so passengers don't get confused so easily between the fast and all shack services.

It's the same for the Harrogate loop services from Leeds and York. Rather than advertise it as a Leeds service from York, it's shown as a Burley Park service, so people who want to get to Leeds don't accidentally catch it and then spend an age trundling around instead of catching a TPE or XC service that takes around 25 minutes.

At the York end, I believe it is advertised as going as far as Poppleton? It does travel from Leeds to York via Harrogate.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

AFAIK there are four places in the north west where trains overtake a slower service.

The Liverpool-Manchester Airport via Newton-le-Willows (& v.v.) does overtake the stopper via Warrington (& v.v.) for journeys to Oxford Road.

The Virgin Trains services to and via Wilmslow overtake the Northern Rail stopping service.

Lancaster-Carlisle via the coast is a long trip in comparison to the fast services, but staff do their best to point this out by PA.

Manchester-Chester is much quicker via Warrington than Altrincham.

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester-Chester is much quicker via Warrington than Altrincham.

But it's only at peak times when Manchester-Chester via Warrington services are half-hourly that they overtake services that departed earlier and have gone via Altrincham.

The old 15:4x Chester-Manchester via Altrincham semi-fast did cause confusion at Chester for two reasons:
1. It was the only departure from Chester to go via Altrincham and miss out stations.
2. It was the only afternoon departure from Chester for Manchester which got overtaken.

 

[Dunderhead]

Except at Southampton Central where it is still advertised as Waterloo. Allegedly this is for the benefit of Megatrain passengers, because they found that displaying Farnborough was confusing them.

There is an argument for the down train only being advertised as Southampton on leaving Waterloo, as for any station beyond Southampton you can leave Waterloo later and change at Southampton.

Is the down train currently advertised as Poole and not Southampton then?

I didn't realise that the up Megatrain customers were put on the train that is overtaken, but I suppose it only takes about 20 minutes longer for a very low price...

I have recalled another FCC example: when the Hertford stoppers run from King's Cross at evenings/weekends and are extended to Stevenage or Letchworth, they are advertised as Watton-at-Stone.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think one example that should be used is at Glasgow Queen Street, all trains as shown as Edinburgh, but if the one route via Bathgate were shown as "Edinburgh Park" it may encourage people to use the direct trains rather than double back at Haymarket or change at Linlithgow. There is no rule of thumb which is quicker but with the fact the trains to Edinburgh Park depart from the suburban line so it is not clear to many passengers that it could be a better option.

Edinburgh Waverley can be interested for the best train to Glasgow with the 4 routes on offer.

 

[142094]

I don't get why they use them opposed to saying, in the case of the Northern service via Harrogate at Leeds, "York (Local stopping service.)" If you're not from the area and you've been told to catch a train towards York as far as Headingley (which is a likely scenario) and you see Poppleton on the departure board, how would you know that Poppleton means slow service to York via Poppleton?

The first time I used the Harrogate line from York (few years back now), I was wanting to get to Leeds via the scenic route. Boards were advertising Burley Park and the front of the train said Harrogate, so I assumed that there must have been engineering work between Burley Park and Leeds. Wasn't until we reached Harrogate where the train is then advertised as all stations to Leeds did I realise why they'd done it.

 

[tbtc]

I don't get why they use them opposed to saying, in the case of the Northern service via Harrogate at Leeds, "York (Local stopping service.)" If you're not from the area and you've been told to catch a train towards York as far as Headingley (which is a likely scenario) and you see Poppleton on the departure board, how would you know that Poppleton means slow service to York via Poppleton?

There's a big big difference between the Harrogate line and the TPE services through Garforth, something like three times as long. Only one Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Oxford Road service gets overtaken each hour, and that's not by as big a time difference (and AFAIK this only works for one combination of stations in Manchester, there's no problem with Piccadilly or Deansgate or Victoria?).

Also, there is a whole different "local stopping service" from Leeds to York, it's the Northern service from Blackpool.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The old 15:4x Chester-Manchester via Altrincham semi-fast did cause confusion at Chester for two reasons:
1. It was the only departure from Chester to go via Altrincham and miss out stations.

Was there not a similar service than ran in the morning rush hour and only stopped at Sale, after leaving Altrincham, en route for Manchester ?

 

[northwichcat]

Was there not a similar service than ran in the morning rush hour and only stopped at Sale, after leaving Altrincham, en route for Manchester ?

I was talking about the service up until the December 2008 timetable change via Stockport. The semi-fast was a left over from the loco hauled Chester-Blackpool service under First North Western, which was the return working of the morning service from St-Annes-on-Sea.

The service was switched to a Pacer and truncated at Manchester by Northern and a separate Sprinter operated Stockport-Blackpool service was introduced. The latter was changed to start back at Hazel Grove and be 180 operated in December 08.

The semi-fast was withdrawn in favour of making the overcrowded 15:0x Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service 4 carriages.

As far as I'm aware most trains from Chester-Altrincham-Manchester ran semi-fast between Altrincham and Manchester prior to Metrolink conversion with most of the EMUs between Altrincham and Manchester stopping at all stations. When my dad talks about his commute on the line from years ago he says he had to change at Altrincham to get to Warwick Road (now Old Trafford Metrolink.)

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I remember back in 2003 I travelled on a 455 for the first time to Teddington thinking that there was a bay platform to scratch off, not knowing Waterloo loopers exist...

Ealing Broadway is advertised to stopper Turbo's to Paddington, Twyford to Reading locals and Radley for Oxfords. Though didn't there used to be services that actually terminated at Twyford?

Heathrow Connect used to show 'Hayes and Harlington' then in small text 'continues to Heathrow Airport T1,2,3' (or something like that), now I see it reads Heathrow Airport T1&3, then in small text 'this is NOT the Express service'

I wonder why some stoppers need to advertise the stop before, if I saw one that list one or two stations over 5 million stations, I'd guess the shorter one is faster...depends what people make it out to be I guess

 

[telstarbox]

Used to happen at Tonbridge where trains would split into a fast/slow portion and the fast called at Ashford first. When the slow terminated at Ashford it would be advertised "Pluckley" so Ashford passengers got the fast portion.

Similarly with trains splitting at Ashford and both halves going different routes to Ramsgate, the portion via Canterbury would be "Ramsgate" and the slower portion via Dover would be "Sandwich".

 

[tbtc]

Presumably there are a lot of slow services that don't show the penultimate station, like the LM services from Birmingham New Street to London Euston (which must be overtaken by a couple of Virgin services en route)?

 

[Robinson]

Presumably there are a lot of slow services that don't show the penultimate station, like the LM services from Birmingham New Street to London Euston (which must be overtaken by a couple of Virgin services en route)?

Probably loads of examples of ones that don't. All the various Southern up trains from Sutton are shown as London Victoria, even though the services via Norbury and Crystal Palace get overtaken by fast services/services via Hackbridge.

Also, given some of the examples we've had on this thread, at Partick you might expect the xx15/45 Dalmuir services to have Singer indicated as their destination on the departure boards, since they're overtaken by the xx17/47 Helensburgh services (until the evening when the trains to Helensburgh are all shacks via Yoker).

 

[RPM]

We've got one at Aylesbury in the current timetable. The 07.20 Aylesbury to Marylebone via the western is only advertised as running to West Ruislip, where it is scheduled to lay over for a staggering 21 minutes.
Incidentally, for those who are interested in such things, it is a class 172 working and along with the 06.00 MYB - AYS outward working it is the only opportunity to do the Aylesbury - Risborough branch on a 172.

 

[34D]

Eh? The fast trains don't stop at Finsbury Park, the slow train is overtaken by the fast train and doubling back to Finsbury Park would require a further fare to be paid. Finsbury Park is therefore the sensible destination.

The 'faster trains' I was referring to are the semi-fasts which only take about 10 minutes longer than the non-stops and do call at Finsbury Park, but I see there is only one of these per hour making the stopper still the fastest train to Finsbury Park at the time it leaves. My bad.

Not your bad at all dunderhead. There are four Cambridge to kings cross off-peak (7 days a week) two non-stop, one semi fast (class 1) and one slow (class 2).

It is subjective as to whether the objective of these pretend destinations is to denote a slow train or show the furthest place that that train is the fastest train to.

 

[150222]

We've got one at Aylesbury in the current timetable. The 07.20 Aylesbury to Marylebone via the western is only advertised as running to West Ruislip, where it is scheduled to lay over for a staggering 21 minutes.
Incidentally, for those who are interested in such things, it is a class 172 working and along with the 06.00 MYB - AYS outward working it is the only opportunity to do the Aylesbury - Risborough branch on a 172.

Are the 172's cleared on the Met line?

 

[Failed Unit]

Are the 172's cleared on the Met line?

No - the don't have trip-cocks.