South Wales electrification

[Zoe]

Swansea won't get electrified until 2030 at the earliest unless they decide to force underfloor engines on the Paddington - Plymouth/Penzance route (apparently stakeholders rejected a plan to use class 222s on that route, partly because of underfloor engines).

I doubt this would have much of an effect on Swansea as it is planned for the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route to retain HSTs whereas Swansea is to get the IEP.

 

[Batman]

I doubt this would have much of an effect on Swansea as it is planned for the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance route to retain HSTs whereas Swansea is to get the IEP.

But I can't see HST's staying in service after 2020 at the latest, so won't they have to order new diesel trains?

 

[YorkshireBear]

London does make a fair bit of money and has a far greater public transport useage than any other city in the UK...

I hope it is not true about only some of valleys getting electrified because that makes it a bit of a pain diagramming seperate DMUs and EMUs

And just going back to safety on A465, it isn't unsafe, morons drive on it.
Recently done a full module in road design and the lecturer summed it up by saying, ' no matter how safe you make a road, there will always be t***s driving on it. ' I don't know whether it needs duelling or not, but it does increase safety by a good 80%.
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But I can't see HST's staying in service after 2020 at the latest, so won't they have to order new diesel trains?

Refurbishment taking them to at least 2035 has been mentioned, unless they order a full fleet of IEPs i see this as the only option. Nothing about the GWML rolling stock has been confirmed yet, they are dragging there heels.

 

[Batman]

Already confirmed refurbishment taking them to at least 2035. to operate West of England services.

But won't that mean that some of them will be almost 60 years old when they're retired from service?

 

[YorkshireBear]

But won't that mean that some of them will be almost 60 years old when they're retired from service?

Correct, but i will be 60 before i become retired so... its not that bad.

Jokes aside, refurbishment and technology has moved on a lot, the quality of refurbishment being undertaken by companies such as Wabtec, Brush etc is really quite amazing. Also it is not the same HST power car, it has been re-engined, and it may be again before retirement. New bogies too maybe.

 

[Batman]

Correct, but i will be 60 before i become retired so... its not that bad.

Jokes aside, refurbishment and technology has moved on a lot, the quality of refurbishment being undertaken by companies such as Wabtec, Brush etc is really quite amazing. Also it is not the same HST power car, it has been re-engined, and it may be again before retirement. New bogies too maybe.

So they're practically new trains done on the cheap?

Considering how well the XC HST's have been refurbished, they're really not that bad. And at least 8 car trains without underfloor engines are miles better than 220's.

 

[ainsworth74]

Already confirmed refurbishment taking them to at least 2035. to operate West of England services.

What's your source for that? Last I heard it had been confirmed that they could be refurbished to take them out to 2035, but, as far as I'm aware it has not been confirmed that they will be given a refurb to take them to that date. Indeed as far as I'm aware nothing has been said specifically about what's happening to the remaining GW HSTs other than they will get a refurbishment to extend their life.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What's your source for that? Last I heard it had been confirmed that they could be refurbished to take them out to 2035, but, as far as I'm aware it has not been confirmed that they will be given a refurb to take them to that date. Indeed as far as I'm aware nothing has been said specifically about what's happening to the remaining GW HSTs other than they will get a refurbishment to extend their life.

I didn't mean to put confirmed is what has happened there, i was thinking it hasn't been confirmed and just didn't concentrate when typing. Changed it.

 

[tbtc]

Doing electrification from London to Cardiff but not Swansea is stupid, you put the wires up but then have to run diesel trains anyway

Electrification to Swansea would be easier to justify if there weren't trains running beyond it (i.e. the Manchester service to Milford Haven, some London services to Pembroke Dock).

Would you accept those cuts if it meant electrification?

And just going back to safety on A465, it isn't unsafe, morons drive on it.
Recently done a full module in road design and the lecturer summed it up by saying, ' no matter how safe you make a road, there will always be t***s driving on it. ' I don't know whether it needs duelling or not, but it does increase safety by a good 80%

In terms that thee and me might understand better, think of the A465 as the Welsh equivalent of the Stocksbridge bypass

 

[Ivo]

I hope it is not true about only some of valleys getting electrified because that makes it a bit of a pain diagramming seperate DMUs and EMUs

The core Valleys network should be wired. Only the lesser peripheral routes that do not serve the main network will not be. This means that only DMUs from the Vale will mix with Valley EMUs, and then we are asuming that it still runs through to Central (instead of terminating at Barry).

 

[YorkshireBear]

In terms that thee and me might understand better, think of the A465 as the Welsh equivalent of the Stocksbridge bypass

Well that only needs dualling for safety purposes because of the utter morons who drive along it at 100mph plus overtaking at will. So surely average speed check cameras would be a better solution to slow people down rather than expensive civil works of dualling the road.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Electrification to Swansea would be easier to justify if there weren't trains running beyond it (i.e. the Manchester service to Milford Haven, some London services to Pembroke Dock).

I think the Manchester service could terminate at Swansea with a connection for Pembrokeshire, though really I'd hope that a replacment hourly through service from Carmarthen to Cardiff via the Swansea District Line would be provided in that case. That wouldn't really help electrification much though, since Swansea - Manchester would still have to be diesel stock as CDF - MAN won't be electrified so I don't see electrification as a reason to bring forward that idea.

Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen to London add to three trains a day max. The Pembroke Dock line needs the capacity of the London trains, Tenby station usage was apparently 0.105 million in 2010/11 despite the slow 2-hourly service and the resident population of Tenby at 2001 census being just under 5,000. Alot of that must be tourist traffic, and I can't see tourists staying on rail if Intercity 125s from England with first class, buffet car and no underfloor engines are replaced with a class 150 or double 153s from Swansea. Swansea would however appear to be an ideal place to swap locos between an electric and a diesel (both needing to have TDM or similar) on a push-pull rake from London for the Carmarthen and Pembroke Dock trains. An alternative, which would maintain the quality of service to Tenby, would be to run Portsmouth - Pembroke Dock trains using life-extended IC125s instead of the current London - Pembroke Dock services.

In other words, I don't see how cutting these services would really help the case for electrification.

 

[tbtc]

I think the Manchester service could terminate at Swansea with a connection for Pembrokeshire, though really I'd hope that a replacment hourly through service from Carmarthen to Cardiff via the Swansea District Line would be provided in that case. That wouldn't really help electrification much though, since Swansea - Manchester would still have to be diesel stock as CDF - MAN won't be electrified so I don't see electrification as a reason to bring forward that idea.

Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen to London add to three trains a day max. The Pembroke Dock line needs the capacity of the London trains, Tenby station usage was apparently 0.105 million in 2010/11 despite the slow 2-hourly service and the resident population of Tenby at 2001 census being just under 5,000. Alot of that must be tourist traffic, and I can't see tourists staying on rail if Intercity 125s from England with first class, buffet car and no underfloor engines are replaced with a class 150 or double 153s from Swansea. Swansea would however appear to be an ideal place to swap locos between an electric and a diesel (both needing to have TDM or similar) on a push-pull rake from London for the Carmarthen and Pembroke Dock trains. An alternative, which would maintain the quality of service to Tenby, would be to run Portsmouth - Pembroke Dock trains using life-extended IC125s instead of the current London - Pembroke Dock services.

In other words, I don't see how cutting these services would really help the case for electrification.

The benchmark for electrification justification commonly used in arguments like this is a half hourly service. I've not seen anything official to justify this, but it appears to be broadly in line with the kind of routes that have electrification in the UK/ those which don't.

Cardiff to Swansea has up to three diesel trains an hour, but many of them wouldn't be "saved" by electrifying the line because they continue into south west Wales.

Look at how Transpennine electrification may mean the end to direct links like Middlesbrough to Manchester.

And I really don't think that underfloor engines are the kind of thing that tourists will worry about.

 

[HSTEd]

How actually far west of Swansea do these trains go?

Is it 30 miles or 100? If the former there is always the "nuclear" option.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The benchmark for electrification justification commonly used in arguments like this is a half hourly service. I've not seen anything official to justify this, but it appears to be broadly in line with the kind of routes that have electrification in the UK/ those which don't.

Cardiff to Swansea has up to three diesel trains an hour, but many of them wouldn't be "saved" by electrifying the line because they continue into south west Wales.

Well, as I said, you couldn't make the Manchesters electric even if they didn't go into south-west Wales, and the Intercity service can be electric up to Swansea and have a diesel loco attached beyond there (which is only 3 trains a day max). So, the Intercity is an hourly electric service. The Swanline services should be hourly and in my opinion it would be acceptable if any that are combined with services west of Swansea were split in two at Swansea, so that's your half-hourly service (Londons and Swanlines, leaving only 1 diesel service per hour (and since that comes from Manchester, it can't be electric)).

Personally, I'd like to see the Cardiff - Taunton service replaced by a service from north of Bristol (wherever it is the Weymouth services come from at the moment, they would start at Bristol instead) to Taunton and a Bristol - Swansea service, which would be a third electric between Cardiff and Swansea, but some consider 3 fast tph and the hourly swanline to be an overprovision between Swansea and Cardiff. I suppose you could have this Swansea - Bristol instead of the Manchester and terminate Manchesters at Cardiff. Carmarthen/Pembrokeshire should have an hourly service to Cardiff, but via the Swansea District Line (if we had that, there would be not much point in a hourly Carmarthen/Pembs - Cardiff through service via Swansea).

Basicly, the following hourly services:

• London - Swansea (electric)
• Bristol - Swansea (electric)
• Cardiff - Swansea (Swanline (all stations) - electric)
• Manchester - Swansea (diesel)
• Cardiff - Carmarthen/Pembs (diesel, via SDL)

Would it be better if the Manchester - Swansea service was only Manchester - Cardiff (the other services would be the same)?
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How actually far west of Swansea do these trains go?

Is it 30 miles or 100? If the former there is always the "nuclear" option.

What "nuclear" option?

There's a daily Carmarthen service, to PAD in the morning and back in the evening. On Sundays, there are three Carmarthen - PAD services. On summer Saturdays, there are also two more trains between Carmarthen and PAD, which come from Pembroke Dock. Using Google Earth, Carmarthen is a tad over 31 miles from Swansea. It is another 14miles thence to Whitland, and 27 from there to Pembroke Dock. So Paddington trains go both 30 miles west of Swansea and 72 miles west of there.

 

[krus_aragon]

The core Valleys network should be wired. Only the lesser peripheral routes that do not serve the main network will not be. This means that only DMUs from the Vale will mix with Valley EMUs, and then we are asuming that it still runs through to Central (instead of terminating at Barry).

Given that they serve the Airport (at Rhoose) I fully expect that they'll run through to Cardiff. They might terminate in (the rebuilt) platform 5 rather than continue up the valleys.

 

[Michael.Y]

Given the relatively lower speeds, I'd much prefer the Valleys electrification to be 3rd Rail rather than wires.

 

[anthony263]

Given the relatively lower speeds, I'd much prefer the Valleys electrification to be 3rd Rail rather than wires.

Now you have said that I wonder how long before someone suggests sending the D stock down to work on the Cardiff Valleys once they have been replaced by newer stock in London

 

[tbtc]

Third rail would be a good Darwinist way of keeping some of the idiots off the tracks (given the anti-social problems that there appear to be at some locations in the Valleys)

 

[anthony263]

Yes but then the families of the trespassers etc will put on the water works in the press and phone claims r us even though I agree with you

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Given the relatively lower speeds, I'd much prefer the Valleys electrification to be 3rd Rail rather than wires.

Do not agree due to power losses etc. It will not happen in my lifetime but I would like to see all existing third rail eventually converted to 25KV AC OH

 

[IanXC]

Do not agree due to power losses etc. It will not happen in my lifetime but I would like to see all existing third rail eventually converted to 25KV AC OH

I agree, its just not something that is going to happen, given the experience that successive operators have had. Theres a reason why all the new major electrification projects over the last 50 years have been 25kV OHLE.

 

[bb21]

Some of the off-topic discussion unrelated to South Wales Electrification has been split into a separate thread.

Please note that it is a very time-consuming job to split off-topic posts out so can we request that people try and remain on topic if they can. It will be greatly appreciated.

 

[krus_aragon]

Given the relatively lower speeds, I'd much prefer the Valleys electrification to be 3rd Rail rather than wires.

The trouble is that you could never make the safety case these days for building a new system with a conducting rail where people can trip over it. One can make the case for expanding existing installations, but a new system is an absolute no-no in the industry.

 

[172212]

What trains would be used/purchased if this line was to be electrified

 

[Nym]

One thing we could see is a potential praliferation of 750V DC OHL electrification on the cheap on branch lines, with automatic changeover to 25kV AC on the more major sections of line.

Personally I'd support this either in 750V or 1500V form (Tyneside Electrification anyone?) provided that ALL new stock was fitted for AC/DC Pantograph working with auto changeover, including the new LDPE EMUs and all other new EMU stock.

I'm thinking about the beyond Taunton / Exeter electrification where phase considerations will be a problem, and margianalised cost, provided that the voltage is high enough to not need multiple feeder stations, the usual downfall of DC electrification being this where feeder stations are required very often allong the route in order to keep the voltage high enough.

It is a trade off with higher OHL costs for HV AC against higher transformer / rectifier costs for MV DC. HVDC is an option but the OHL costs go up again, as do equipment costs.

 

[paul1609]

Do not agree due to power losses etc. It will not happen in my lifetime but I would like to see all existing third rail eventually converted to 25KV AC OH

Maybe for main line services but for metro lines such as the valleys with modern power electronics DC probably has an advantage. Many of the major metro schemes being built overseas are dc some like the Dubai metro are even third rail.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Maybe for main line services but for metro lines such as the valleys with modern power electronics DC probably has an advantage. Many of the major metro schemes being built overseas are dc some like the Dubai metro are even third rail.

Well it wouldn't make much sense to introduce two forms of electric traction to a place like Cardiff which will have 25K OH.

 

[Nym]

Not really, but if the new units kicking around can do a seemless changeover between the two in a neutral section and the quieter, required to be cheaper parts are done with the DC form of electrification, still on OHL it wouldn't have any issues with me.

 

[tbtc]

Well it wouldn't make much sense to introduce two forms of electric traction to a place like Cardiff which will have 25K OH.

Only if you accept that the lines through Queen Street (as far as the south eastern bay at Bridgend) are going to be completely operationally separate from the GWML lines and that you want to put up with the cost of two sets of infrastructure, two types of stock, no interworking etc... that's quite a cost so I'd want a huge saving in the "cheaper" electrification to justify it!