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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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MKB

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I was hugely disappointed when First won the bid, not because I have any great love for Virgin -- I certainly don't: they have far too many faults -- but for the purely selfish reason that I will no longer be able to benefit from the free-travel perks of the Virgin Traveller scheme.

Interesting then that Virgin's recent press release seems to suggest that the Traveller programme was being replaced by something completely new anyway. (Sounds like it would have been a Nectar-style programme.)

Given that Traveller was targeted at the higher-end spenders on Virgin, some of whom may be people in positions of influence, I'm surprised First haven't announced some broadly similar scheme to keep that group of passengers sweet.
 
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jimm

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I was hugely disappointed when First won the bid, not because I have any great love for Virgin -- I certainly don't: they have far too many faults -- but for the purely selfish reason that I will no longer be able to benefit from the free-travel perks of the Virgin Traveller scheme.

Interesting then that Virgin's recent press release seems to suggest that the Traveller programme was being replaced by something completely new anyway. (Sounds like it would have been a Nectar-style programme.)

Given that Traveller was targeted at the higher-end spenders on Virgin, some of whom may be people in positions of influence, I'm surprised First haven't announced some broadly similar scheme to keep that group of passengers sweet.

Give them a chance. Bit hard for First to get a hearing on the big issue, never mind their ideas on this sort of thing amid the kerfuffle generated in recent days by Sir Richard via his sat-phone.
 

eastdyke

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I was hugely disappointed when First won the bid, not because I have any great love for Virgin -- I certainly don't: they have far too many faults -- but for the purely selfish reason that I will no longer be able to benefit from the free-travel perks of the Virgin Traveller scheme.

Interesting then that Virgin's recent press release seems to suggest that the Traveller programme was being replaced by something completely new anyway. (Sounds like it would have been a Nectar-style programme.)

Given that Traveller was targeted at the higher-end spenders on Virgin, some of whom may be people in positions of influence, I'm surprised First haven't announced some broadly similar scheme to keep that group of passengers sweet.

FirstGroup may well have a loyalty scheme. It is not part of their bid and until they get a signed contract we will probably hear nothing.

In the meantime we continue to suffer the tirade from Virgin - supposedly trying to elicit public support for them to be given a franchise that has already been lost on the basis of their considered bid.

Bad form RB.
 

Whistler40145

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I personally haven't had any problems with Virgin Trains or First Group.

We just need to let First get on with the job & if it goes belly up, then the franchise will be re-let.
 

Oswyntail

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Support:I can understand why there is support - Virgin achieved a step change in customer service. .....
Untrue taking the country as a whole. The customer service on East Coast Inter-City/GNER was reckoned to be the benchmark that TOCs should aim for at the time, and it was felt that Virgin just about scraped to approaching that level. Of course, the PR machine sold it differently. Admittedly the levels on the East Coast have dropped off, but Virgin themselves have too.
 

mrpsb

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Just had a thought - are Virgin going to run their units into the ground before hand over in hope of First inheriting a half-broken fleet so Beardie can point at them and go "A-hah! Told you so!" when they run into reliability issues?

*dons tin-foil hat*
 

Failed Unit

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Just had a thought - are Virgin going to run their units into the ground before hand over in hope of First inheriting a half-broken fleet so Beardie can point at them and go "A-hah! Told you so!" when they run into reliability issues?

*dons tin-foil hat*

You mean like East Coast are now suffering from national express's neglect.

As for first group and loyalty scheme's, the one they run in Scotrail is very good for the franchise, not sure what the other first group franchises offer, but first do loyalty schemes.
 

HH

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Even if 135mph shaves a few minutes off some journeys, I don't see how Virgin can run extra services to Preston/ Bangor, introduce direct trains to Shrewsbury/ Bolton/ Blackpool/ Stirling etc without any net increase in the number of trains (twenty one EMUs replacing twenty one Voyagers).

We haven't seen any detail of the 135mph running. Speculation here is that it would be North of Preston only...

Anyway, there is slack in the current TT. Turnround times at Euston could be tightened, for instance. Extra services could be fitted in, and they have the added bonus of taking away paths that might have been bid for by Open Access Operators...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just had a thought - are Virgin going to run their units into the ground before hand over in hope of First inheriting a half-broken fleet so Beardie can point at them and go "A-hah! Told you so!" when they run into reliability issues?

Thankfully Virgin do not maintain the trains...
 
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Failed Unit

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Yes slack in timetables is now common in the industry, On my trips on the 1630 London - Glasgow service, it is very possible to do this in under 4 hours. (and it is never full) However the main problem seems to be other trains in the Glasgow area.

Just like on the East Coast route many trains could probably do this in 4h13 comfortably (remember pre Eureka the 1500 London - Edinburgh managed it with the same stops as now). However the problem with the slack is that if the train does get stuck behind a late runner it has no way of recovering. It is very frustrating for us on the East Coast when we leave your 3 minutes late and follow the XC service all the way to Edinburgh simply because we then have to stop at the stations it stops at. I am sure the same problem exists on Virgin, the only reason we make it to Edinburgh "on time" is because of the slack in the last 2 stops, which again I am sure it would be a big risk to Virgin if they removed.

I am sure passengers would prefer the 1345 to arrive at 1335 (because of slack) rather than the 1335 to arrive at 1338 (because it has none) if you see what I mean.
 

HH

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I wonder if Virgin have been very clever with their investment figures. I wonder if they are counting all the extra trains they will be introducing, but then forgetting the ones they are getting rid of. Because from what they are telling us, I cant see where all their extra investment is going.

Precisely. What do the investment figures contain? I would discount them completely, and concentrate instead on what's actually being delivered. I know a third bidder was doing a lot more with stations than either of these.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes slack in timetables is now common in the industry, On my trips on the 1630 London - Glasgow service, it is very possible to do this in under 4 hours. (and it is never full) However the main problem seems to be other trains in the Glasgow area.

Just like on the East Coast route many trains could probably do this in 4h13 comfortably (remember pre Eureka the 1500 London - Edinburgh managed it with the same stops as now). However the problem with the slack is that if the train does get stuck behind a late runner it has no way of recovering. It is very frustrating for us on the East Coast when we leave your 3 minutes late and follow the XC service all the way to Edinburgh simply because we then have to stop at the stations it stops at. I am sure the same problem exists on Virgin, the only reason we make it to Edinburgh "on time" is because of the slack in the last 2 stops, which again I am sure it would be a big risk to Virgin if they removed.

I am sure passengers would prefer the 1345 to arrive at 1335 (because of slack) rather than the 1335 to arrive at 1338 (because it has none) if you see what I mean.

Passengers do put a higher value on unexpected delays, but it's not as much as over 3:1, so I think your last statement is incorrect. In any case all you need to do is to make it 13:38 and your problem's solved! Plus the slack is all put in at the Euston end, so people making intermediate journeys are still late. Anyway, there are ways to run more trains without additional rolling stock. I bet all bids contained them.
 
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AndrewP

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Always be careful with satisfaction surveys - the answer depends on the question and can easily be skewed

e.g. if you ask the following:
  • Do you like being delayed on trains?
  • Are you sick of dirty trains?
  • Do you think fares are too expensive?
  • Do you think there are not enough trains when you need them?
At this point the respondent is in a negative frame of mind and will be poorly disposed to any train company so if a question such as 'Company X has increased fares by X% - do you think this company provides good service and value?' is asked you will get a low response otherwise the respondent will look inconsistent and possibly look silly to the interviewer.

Now if you asked the same person the following:
  • Is it good to reduce fares on off peak tickets?
  • Do you approve of catering improvements?
  • Should train companies do what they can to reduce delays?
  • Is it good that train companies refurbish their trains?
At this point the respondent will be focusing on the good things so if a question such as 'Company X has done all of these things - do you think this company provides good service and value?' the response will be overwhelmingly positive for the same reasons.

Remember as Vic Reeves said '88.2% of statistics are made up on the spot'
 

Pen Mill

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Just had a thought - are Virgin going to run their units into the ground before hand over in hope of First inheriting a half-broken fleet so Beardie can point at them and go "A-hah! Told you so!" when they run into reliability issues?

*dons tin-foil hat*
Can they physically do that ?
What I mean is that there are "obligatory" maintenance schedules and the trains can't physically do any more mileage can they , or are they doubling services ?:lol:

I'm just not sure how they can half break the fleet that's all.

As far as the additional train investment goes , 21 baby pendos , why would Dft be waxing lyrical about First adding 12 extra trains when Virgin "proposed" 21 ? That doesn't make much sense to me. Would Dft really set themselves up as sitting ducks like this ?
 
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snail

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Give them a chance. Bit hard for First to get a hearing on the big issue, never mind their ideas on this sort of thing amid the kerfuffle generated in recent days by Sir Richard via his sat-phone.
Not only is my dismay at Virgin's antics growing with every pronouncement I am quite impressed with First's restraint and common sense responses. They are simply saying what they intend to do and keeping quiet about some of Beardy's more outrageous claims.

Much of this is spin of course - from both sides - the proof will come only after December when things get underway for real.
 

SkinnyDave

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Not only is my dismay at Virgin's antics growing with every pronouncement I am quite impressed with First's restraint and common sense responses. They are simply saying what they intend to do and keeping quiet about some of Beardy's more outrageous claims.

Much of this is spin of course - from both sides - the proof will come only after December when things get underway for real.

Or is the transport comitee gets ripped into it before then
 

sprinterguy

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Can they physically do that ?
What I mean is that there are "obligatory" maintenance schedules and the trains can't physically do any more mileage can they , or are they doubling services ?:lol:

I'm just not sure how they can half break the fleet that's all.
By reducing maintenance regimes: Cleaning less thoroughly, letting smaller faults go unchecked, giving mechanical components less regular attention. All the sorts of things that have happened before with older rolling stock when TOCs have taken delivery of a new train fleet, and probably when a franchise has changed hands, too.

Of course, this would be down to Alstom who maintain the trains rather than Virgin and hence seems less likely than if the TOC was responsible for maintenance themselves. Although perhaps it is because I have been travelling on Virgin services daily over the last few months rather than weekly or fortnightly as I did previously, but over the last couple of weeks I have noticed a lot more issues with the trains interiors: Rubber seals around windows and door frames loose, hanging off or ill-fitting, water dripping through the lighting panels into the passenger saloon, ceiling panels coming loose and hanging down into the passenger saloon.
 

Stats

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Interesting then that Virgin's recent press release seems to suggest that the Traveller programme was being replaced by something completely new anyway. (Sounds like it would have been a Nectar-style programme.)

Given that Traveller was targeted at the higher-end spenders on Virgin, some of whom may be people in positions of influence, I'm surprised First haven't announced some broadly similar scheme to keep that group of passengers sweet.

FirstGroup may well have a loyalty scheme. It is not part of their bid and until they get a signed contract we will probably hear nothing.
I must have been imagining the words "introduction of new customer loyalty programme" in the FirstGroup press release then. ;)
 

sprinterguy

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As far as the additional train investment goes , 21 baby pendos , why would Dft be waxing lyrical about First adding 12 extra trains when Virgin "proposed" 21 ? That doesn't make much sense to me. Would Dft really set themselves up as sitting ducks like this ?
Virgin’s proposal, if it is true, wouldn’t have resulted in any additional trains in the franchise though, unlike first who will be introducing twelve additional new trains. It looks as if Virgin would not have retained any of the Voyagers by the way their press release is worded.
 

Realfish

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Untrue taking the country as a whole. The customer service on East Coast Inter-City/GNER was reckoned to be the benchmark that TOCs should aim for at the time, and it was felt that Virgin just about scraped to approaching that level. Of course, the PR machine sold it differently. Admittedly the levels on the East Coast have dropped off, but Virgin themselves have too.

I only experienced GNER a couple of times and I agree, they were good. My comparison here, was with what we previously had on the West Coast - it was indeed a step change.

Admittedly most of my once-a-week journeys to and from London were in first. The onboard crews were exceptional - particularly the Preston teams who usually manned the services that I boarded at LTV.

Customer Service and culture were the things that I had an interest in, in my day job. The way that Virign's on board teams worked together and engaged with their customers was remarkable - I often wished some of it could have been injected into the public sector organisation that I worked for.

When my organsation eventually 'banned' first class travel, although obviously not as visible, the staff were no less focused.

I always made (still do) a point of speaking with staff when I travel. What was most remarkable was not just how much they enjoyed their job but they enjoyed working for Virgin -many of them didn't join the railway to work on ICWC - they wanted to work for Virgin. Virgin was a brand not only bought into by customers, but by its staff and by potential staff. Clearly Virgin has achieved an engagement with their people that in my long experience is quite unique.

What I find completely dispiriting is the belief by some here (and in the Railway press) that in December, you'll be able to stick a new uniform on these people and everything will be the same. It won't, and to suggest it will be mises the point that a 'vanilla' get what you're given railway is no longer what the customer wants.

In the work that I did until recently, I was involved in supporting the implementation of three siginificant mergers or takeovers. In each case, directors completely underestimated the cultural implications of change - if they recognised them at all, that is. Here be danger for FWC, Sunrise trains or whatever they want to call themselves. Get it wrong (and the early signs are not promising) and everyone will regret it.
 
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lfc84

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i've been away for a few weeks and just trying to catch up. apologies if this has already been covered.

when is this going to court?
 

snail

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i've been away for a few weeks and just trying to catch up. apologies if this has already been covered.

when is this going to court?
It may not yet. A judge is reviewing the application to determine whether Virgin have good cause for a full case. That process is quoted as taking 2-3 weeks.
 

swt_passenger

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Virgin’s proposal, if it is true, wouldn’t have resulted in any additional trains in the franchise though, unlike first who will be introducing twelve additional new trains. It looks as if Virgin would not have retained any of the Voyagers by the way their press release is worded.

This bit therefore appears to be is a classic attempt to muddy the waters:

VT media room said:
...FG appears to be retaining all of the Voyager fleet but it is not clear whether this is a firm commitment to do so or that they have the option to redeploy them to other routes.

There has been nothing whatsoever from the DfT or First that suggests anything other than all the WC Voyagers are staying to provide the new services off the main electrified route. So off Virgin go with a hint that they might be redeployed. Good one...
 

jimm

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By reducing maintenance regimes: Cleaning less thoroughly, letting smaller faults go unchecked, giving mechanical components less regular attention. All the sorts of things that have happened before with older rolling stock when TOCs have taken delivery of a new train fleet, and probably when a franchise has changed hands, too.

Of course, this would be down to Alstom who maintain the trains rather than Virgin and hence seems less likely than if the TOC was responsible for maintenance themselves. Although perhaps it is because I have been travelling on Virgin services daily over the last few months rather than weekly or fortnightly as I did previously, but over the last couple of weeks I have noticed a lot more issues with the trains interiors: Rubber seals around windows and door frames loose, hanging off or ill-fitting, water dripping through the lighting panels into the passenger saloon, ceiling panels coming loose and hanging down into the passenger saloon.

Maybe virgin's managers are too busy urging people to sign petitions to focus on the day job and pick Alstom up on this sort of thing? Or maybe you are just noticing things more because of the current situation? Who knows? Just sounds like a pretty typical state of affairs with a hard-worked train fleet.

@Realfish
What I find completely dispiriting is the belief by some here (and in the Railway press) that in December, you'll be able to stick a new uniform on these people and everything will be the same. It won't, and to suggest it will be mises the point that a 'vanilla' get what you're given railway is no longer what the customer wants.

In the work that I did until recently, I was involved in supporting the implementation of three siginificant mergers or takeovers. In each case, directors completely underestimated the cultural implications of change - if they recognised them at all, that is. Here be danger for FWC, Sunrise trains or whatever they want to call themselves. Get it wrong (and the early signs are not promising) and everyone will regret it.

It won't be the same, amazing deduction, but nor will the staff turn into three-headed snarling monsters - I say this from experience, having seen the transition from Thames Trains to FGW Link, then to FGW. And First have a great deal of experience in this sort of situation, having taken over Scotrail, Thames Trains, Wessex Trains and Thameslink from other operators. They will not be starry-eyed about what lies ahead - and what are these "early signs"? I would like to know, as, like lfc84, I'm struggling to understand what you are referring to. Do you have some inside track to First's mamagement plans?

SkinnyDave
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Originally Posted by snail
Not only is my dismay at Virgin's antics growing with every pronouncement I am quite impressed with First's restraint and common sense responses. They are simply saying what they intend to do and keeping quiet about some of Beardy's more outrageous claims.

Much of this is spin of course - from both sides - the proof will come only after December when things get underway for real.
Or is the transport comitee gets ripped into it before then

You seem to assume there is universal agreement on the transport select committee, when pretty much the only member we have heard from is the chair, Louise Ellman, who is a Labour MP, and, like her party's transport spokesman Maria Eagle, sees this as a stick to beat the Government with.

I wondered previously whether Ms Eagle ever did anything while Labour was in Government to try to change the supposedly flawed franchising system. I could say the same for Ms Ellman. Both are Liverpool MPs, so on Virgin's patch. Would either take such a close interest if they represented seats away from Virgin-land, other than, as I say, as an excuse to have a go at the Government? This is indeed the job of the opposition, but they have yet to suggest an alternative. Running a new bidding process, perhaps? After millions and millions have already been spent, before we even get near the courts with the attendant army of barristers?

And the Tories on the committee are going to be caught between a rock and a hard place, with dynamic thrusting entrepreneurialism on the one hand and a franchise system their party invented on the other, so if you think the committee will come up with some unified position, you are mistaken. Never mind that they have no power whatever in this situation.

Maybe Branson hopes that if he delays things long enough, First will just walk away and the Government will come cap in hand to him asking him to carry on. Dream on. NX, East Coast. Need I say more?

Yes slack in timetables is now common in the industry, On my trips on the 1630 London - Glasgow service, it is very possible to do this in under 4 hours. (and it is never full) However the main problem seems to be other trains in the Glasgow area.

Just like on the East Coast route many trains could probably do this in 4h13 comfortably (remember pre Eureka the 1500 London - Edinburgh managed it with the same stops as now). However the problem with the slack is that if the train does get stuck behind a late runner it has no way of recovering. It is very frustrating for us on the East Coast when we leave your 3 minutes late and follow the XC service all the way to Edinburgh simply because we then have to stop at the stations it stops at. I am sure the same problem exists on Virgin, the only reason we make it to Edinburgh "on time" is because of the slack in the last 2 stops, which again I am sure it would be a big risk to Virgin if they removed.

You make it sound as though the 10 minutes allowed at the end of journeys is a recent phenomenon. It is copyright BR Intercity sector way back when. Watford-Euston on Birmingham-London trains was timetabled for 10 minutes longer than Euston-Watford was 20 or more years ago.
 
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sprinterguy

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Or maybe you are just noticing things more because of the current situation? Who knows? Just sounds like a pretty typical state of affairs with a hard-worked train fleet.
Yes, I am inclined to think that you are correct in this analogy. Don't worry, I'm not leaping onto the train of thought that would suggest that Virgin are sabotaging their own operation for First, not by any means.
 

HH

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As the signing has been delayed First must already be talking to DfT about guaranteeing spend or agreeing to a 'change'. This is the stuff of nightmares for DfT. They cannot win here.
 

Failed Unit

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You make it sound as though the 10 minutes allowed at the end of journeys is a recent phenomenon. It is copyright BR Intercity sector way back when. Watford-Euston on Birmingham-London trains was timetabled for 10 minutes longer than Euston-Watford was 20 or more years ago.

I wouldn't disagree with that statement, it seems to have increased in recent times however. East Coast new timetable is probably a good comparison however considering nothing change on the route (line speeds or stock). So now the 1100 Kings Cross - Edinburgh takes longers (although not much) but has less stops (ie non-stop to York). You seem to be waiting outside York on most journeys now which changes a what should have being early arrival to a late arrival (but that is probably because a train is occuping the platform).

There are some times when it is good to have the public earlier than the working timetable as it means the passengers are on the platform (or can't moan when they miss the train). the train I take to work for example is shown as 0719 - but always turns up at 0723 which most passengers ask why can't they just put that in the timetable, but you do see us regulars plodding over the bridge at 0722!
 

tbtc

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What about the 21 displaced voyagers?

Theres a net increase of 21 trains not doing anything which can be used on the extra services

First were planning on running

  • 21x Voyagers
  • 57x 390s
  • 12x new EMUs

(with the new EMUs replacing Voyagers that currently run under the wires - e.g. Birmingham to Glasgow, London to Lancaster, and the displaced Voyagers being used on "new" services to Shrewsbury etc and extra services to Bangor)

Virgin were planning on running

  • 21x new EMUs
  • 57x 390s

(with the new EMUs replacing Voyagers - but I've got no idea how they can do this *and* run hourly services off the wires to Chester plus new services to Shrewsbury etc)

We haven't seen any detail of the 135mph running. Speculation here is that it would be North of Preston only...

Anyway, there is slack in the current TT. Turnround times at Euston could be tightened, for instance. Extra services could be fitted in, and they have the added bonus of taking away paths that might have been bid for by Open Access Operators...

Turnaround times could be tightened, but it looks like Virgin are proposing roughly the same level of service as First but with around nine fewer trains - even if you start "stepping back" at Euston, I can't see how that'd be feasible.

Is the "we would get rid of Voyagers" stuff just smokescreen/ misunderstanding?

As far as the additional train investment goes , 21 baby pendos , why would Dft be waxing lyrical about First adding 12 extra trains when Virgin "proposed" 21 ? That doesn't make much sense to me. Would Dft really set themselves up as sitting ducks like this ?

Virgin's "baby pendos" were to replace the Voyagers - First's "baby pendos" were as well as keeping all of the Voyagers, so the dozen First EMUs would be a net increase in number of trains whilst Virgin weren't going to increase the fleet size.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You seem to assume there is universal agreement on the transport select committee, when pretty much the only member we have heard from is the chair, Louise Ellman, who is a Labour MP, and, like her party's transport spokesman Maria Eagle, sees this as a stick to beat the Government with.

If the much-missed Gwyneth Dunwoody was still alive and in charge of the Transport Select Committee I think we would have had a very robust debate.
As MP for Crewe and Nantwich, an ASLEF-sponsored MP and a long-time critic of WCML operations (under BR and VT) she would have been in her element.
The present lot mean well, but do not know enough detail to get to the heart of the matter.
The TSC is not a wholly Labour body, of course.
 

Pen Mill

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What I find completely dispiriting is the belief by some here (and in the Railway press) that in December, you'll be able to stick a new uniform on these people and everything will be the same. It won't, and to suggest it will be mises the point that a 'vanilla' get what you're given railway is no longer what the customer wants.

In the work that I did until recently, I was involved in supporting the implementation of three siginificant mergers or takeovers. In each case, directors completely underestimated the cultural implications of change - if they recognised them at all, that is. Here be danger for FWC, Sunrise trains or whatever they want to call themselves. Get it wrong (and the early signs are not promising) and everyone will regret it.
Since when have I become a First fan ? Very recently I'd say !

This has now been publicised beyond anybody's expectations. First will be doing everything to make sure that not only do they succeed but do it in a very up front manner , what that is I don't know !!.

I have seen TUPE and non-TUPE takeovers and they are always messy. Everyone loves the previous culture.
I remember one I was involved in during the 80s where a long standing employee was harping on about how things were great before , not before the current one but from one 15 years ago ! so he'd basically had a chip on his shoulder for 15 years !

The key is to keep the grievances in house , very difficult here, but management need to keep ahead of the game.
 
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