First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Pen Mill]

He really is a drama queen:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...hard-bransons-in-west-coast-main-line-warning

Allegedly the economic well-being of the North West lies in his hands. What next? A plea of won't somebody think of the children?

Is he close to being slapped by the judicial review judges ? he should be.

 

[jon0844]

@Wath Yard, I already mentioned that earlier... without Virgin, the next generation of children will struggle to enjoy the freedoms of rail travel that only came about when Virgin Trains begun operating. Before that, rail travel was merely for the elite, using outdated trains that were slow and dirty.

We OWE it to our children to let Virgin keep running the WCML route and taking its subsidy to help Virgin take on 'the man'.

 

[khib70]

@Wath Yard, I already mentioned that earlier... without Virgin, the next generation of children will struggle to enjoy the freedoms of rail travel that only came about when Virgin Trains begun operating. Before that, rail travel was merely for the elite, using outdated trains that were slow and dirty.

We OWE it to our children to let Virgin keep running the WCML route and taking its subsidy to help Virgin take on 'the man'.

Gawd, you and Wath Yard and your tedious anti-Virgin crusade!!!

That would be the same subsidy that FGW pocketed, then baled out when the handouts stopped? The same subsidy they'll pick up this time before they toss the keys back.

If a company can have a fundamental orifice, you guys clearly think the sun radiates from First's. Did you get a bad pastie from a Virgin shop once??:roll:

 

[Wath Yard]

Gawd, you and Wath Yard and your tedious anti-Virgin crusade!!!

That would be the same subsidy that FGW pocketed, then baled out when the handouts stopped? The same subsidy they'll pick up this time before they toss the keys back.

Nearly as tedious as the constant drivel by people who can't be bothered checking the simplest of facts?

This has been mentioned numerous times - FirstGroup did not bail on FGW. They declined to take up an optional franchise extension. Every company in the world would have done the same.

 

[jon0844]

Erm, I've worked for Virgin. I've met Richard Branson, a man that until fairly recently I regarded as an idol. In many respects, I still do given his achievements which go far beyond what I have ever done - even if I did run my own business for almost ten years (very successfully, I might add - but I always wanted to pursue journalism).

Nevertheless I can't wear rose tinted specs forever, as some people clearly do. Despite me loving the brand, knowing what it's like to work for one of his companies and the general 'feel good factor' of being an employee, as well as having flown Virgin Upper Class and experienced air travel that's like a dream - I can't just suddenly ignore what Virgin has done.

It's about ethics. What SRB is doing is wrong. And I don't support him, even if I don't suddenly hate the guy or all of the other businesses he owns, or part owns. I know things about him (as I'm sure others do) that shows he's not the sweet, loving and kind and gentle man the media perceives him to be - but nor is he downright evil. He's a businessman and does what he needs to do - and this time he's got it wrong. Very wrong.

And I am a lover of First? This the company that runs FCC and has had staff harassing me to the point where I've had to go to the MD to get things sorted. Being held for nearly 5 hours being threatened with prosecution for holding perfectly valid tickets? But, I don't suddenly attack First for everything it does because of some bad experiences. And I think it's just as obvious that some of the anti-Virgin comments on here are humorous, but only written on account of the anger (and perhaps disappointment) from people that until recently would have rigorously defended Virgin.

For the record, First has gone a great job turning things around on the Great Western route (at least on the Intercity side) and FCC on the GN side is excellent, and I am sure that when all the TL work is done, they could run that just as well. It's a tough job running commuter services, but First generally seem to manage quite well.

I know it's hard to believe, especially with me being a journalist, but I believe in being fare and impartial at all times - and that means you don't turn a blind eye to things. You can have a problem with a company but still give credit where it's due - it's never black and white. There's good and bad in everything in life, and Virgin is being called out on this rather cynical manipulation of the public and media, who are largely ignorant as to what Virgin Trains actually did - and what would have happened anyway if Virgin hadn't got the franchise back in 1997.

Or do people think we'd still be using the same stock and the WCML wouldn't have had any upgrade work had another operator run the services?

 

[Donny Dave]

That would be the same subsidy that FGW pocketed, then baled out when the handouts stopped? The same subsidy they'll pick up this time before they toss the keys back.

Hmm, I think myself and every other member on this forum (as well as others) have completely mis-read all they government and First Group press releases regarding the WCML franchise then. Instead of paying the government £5.5 billion, First will be recieving money instead, ok .....

Also, are First currently paying a premium to run the Greater Western franchise, and will do until the end of the franchise?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Transport Select Committee on Monday September 10:
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...rt-committee/news/rail-2020--wcmf-ev-session/

Note the picture the TSC has chosen to illustrate its ICWC meeting appears to be an SWT Desiro in 3rd-rail land...

 

[David10]

That would be the same subsidy that FGW pocketed, then baled out when the handouts stopped? The same subsidy they'll pick up this time before they toss the keys back.

FGW has been making premium payments for a number of years. For the 358th time the contract it signed with the DfT made the last 3 years optional. First would have been mad to take it up.

 

[jon0844]

And the taxpayer is better off too, as First would have likely been given a lot of compensation for the delayed introduction of new stock and electrification.

Funny how I bet all the people that signed the petition were likely heavily critical of the railway and companies getting subsidies, at great cost to the taxpayer (let's ignore the fact NR takes the majority for now), but once Richard Branson is involved, it's suddenly okay to give him loads of money to promote his brand, as a halo for the rest of the company (arguably Virgin Atlantic is another halo brand, but not quite as accessible or regularly used by most people).

Did everyone previously accept the problems on Virgin Trains because of the logo? No, they moaned a lot. From people delayed, to those being made to pay a fortune for not having planned journeys weeks in advance, to the enthusiasts moaning about the cramped interiors and smelly toilets. Actually, the cramped interior wasn't just a bugbear of the train enthusiast, or else you wouldn't have the option to specifically book and reserve a seat with a window!

 

[table38]

There's a whole page about this in this months fortnights Private Eye which is worth a read, and whilst they don't rate "Worstgroup" much either, the gist of the article is:

• Branson promised to "empty the M6" (which instead had to be widened)
• Boasted about "Rail's environmental advantage over domestic air services" (before threatening to introduce domestic flights)
• Prevented, or suddenly chose to compete with, new services "introduced to increase Rail's overall share of the transport market", but Virgin showed that they were only interested in their own profits and "couldn't give a toss about the success of the rail network as a whole"

 

[Geezertronic]

Got to admit now it's all getting a bit tedious now, but not as tedious as reading some of the posts on here tbh

Both the people for and against VT/First Group are making themselves look right plonkers with some of the comments made in this thread, probably worse than what has been reported in the press (because they never lie do they)

 

[Whistler40145]

Quite right, it's now got a feeling like having a splinter!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

For the average traveller they won't see any difference apart from a change of colour and different branding, to the staff however is a different ball game, you ask the staff who work for Virgin who they want to work for and 95% would say Virgin, they trust the brand, they trust the bosses, and yes they will lose some Virgin "perks", They DON'T Trust First, They DON'T trust the brand and to an average employee that matters, to me I would hate to work for Firstgroup again, but when my TOC's time comes and if First get it then I will continue being a professional and do my job as I do now but I won't trust anyone above my CTM's as believe me when I say this. In the Firstgroup world Higher managers will stab anyone in the back to make them look good which always filters down to the likes of myself and my colleagues.

 

[RPI]

For the average traveller they won't see any difference apart from a change of colour and different branding, to the staff however is a different ball game, you ask the staff who work for Virgin who they want to work for and 95% would say Virgin, they trust the brand, they trust the bosses, and yes they will lose some Virgin "perks", They DON'T Trust First, They DON'T trust the brand and to an average employee that matters, to me I would hate to work for Firstgroup again, but when my TOC's time comes and if First get it then I will continue being a professional and do my job as I do now but I won't trust anyone above my CTM's as believe me when I say this. In the Firstgroup world Higher managers will stab anyone in the back to make them look good which always filters down to the likes of myself and my colleagues.

I would totally disagree, First do not suffer fools so you can bet yer bottom dollar that any deadwood management would go, the reason the VT staff dont trust the First brand is all of the VT propoganda that is being fed to them by VT by the very managers who probably won't have a job for long after Dec.

 

[Morgsie]

What is going on regarding the e-petition???

 

[ainsworth74]

I would totally disagree, First do not suffer fools so you can bet yer bottom dollar that any deadwood management would go, the reason the VT staff dont trust the First brand is all of the VT propoganda that is being fed to them by VT by the very managers who probably won't have a job for long after Dec.

I also think it's worth bearing in mind that the only VT staff that have likely been through a franchise change are those that were with ICWC when VT took over from BR and that isn't totally comparable. I imagine there is a certain amount of fear of the unknown playing amongst the VT staff.

What is going on regarding the e-petition???

It might get tabled for a debate or it might not just as the case with all these petitions.

 

[driver_m]

I would totally disagree, First do not suffer fools so you can bet yer bottom dollar that any deadwood management would go, the reason the VT staff dont trust the First brand is all of the VT propoganda that is being fed to them by VT by the very managers who probably won't have a job for long after Dec.

You really need to speak to some of us who work at VT before you come out with rubbish like this, do you seriously think we are all chipped and brainwashed? We can see through rubbish and flannel a mile off, I personally don't trust any manager no matter how friendly they come across but VT can be and are pretty ruthless with management too. ANorthernGuard has got it pretty much right. As I've said before, people have long memories at seeing what FNW were like.

 

[ainsworth74]

As I've said before, people have long memories at seeing what FNW were like.

A franchise that's long gone. What about the current First franchises?

 

[RPI]

You really need to speak to some of us who work at VT before you come out with rubbish like this, do you seriously think we are all chipped and brainwashed? We can see through rubbish and flannel a mile off, I personally don't trust any manager no matter how friendly they come across but VT can be and are pretty ruthless with management too. ANorthernGuard has got it pretty much right. As I've said before, people have long memories at seeing what FNW were like.

using FNW as a comparison is like comparing a 1980's Skoda with a new Skoda, two completely different beasts.

 

[Butts]

Erm, I've worked for Virgin. I've met Richard Branson, a man that until fairly recently I regarded as an idol. In many respects, I still do given his achievements which go far beyond what I have ever done - even if I did run my own business for almost ten years (very successfully, I might add - but I always wanted to pursue journalism).

Nevertheless I can't wear rose tinted specs forever, as some people clearly do. Despite me loving the brand, knowing what it's like to work for one of his companies and the general 'feel good factor' of being an employee, as well as having flown Virgin Upper Class and experienced air travel that's like a dream - I can't just suddenly ignore what Virgin has done.

It's about ethics. What SRB is doing is wrong. And I don't support him, even if I don't suddenly hate the guy or all of the other businesses he owns, or part owns. I know things about him (as I'm sure others do) that shows he's not the sweet, loving and kind and gentle man the media perceives him to be - but nor is he downright evil. He's a businessman and does what he needs to do - and this time he's got it wrong. Very wrong.

And I am a lover of First? This the company that runs FCC and has had staff harassing me to the point where I've had to go to the MD to get things sorted. Being held for nearly 5 hours being threatened with prosecution for holding perfectly valid tickets? But, I don't suddenly attack First for everything it does because of some bad experiences. And I think it's just as obvious that some of the anti-Virgin comments on here are humorous, but only written on account of the anger (and perhaps disappointment) from people that until recently would have rigorously defended Virgin.

For the record, First has gone a great job turning things around on the Great Western route (at least on the Intercity side) and FCC on the GN side is excellent, and I am sure that when all the TL work is done, they could run that just as well. It's a tough job running commuter services, but First generally seem to manage quite well.

I know it's hard to believe, especially with me being a journalist, but I believe in being fare and impartial at all times - and that means you don't turn a blind eye to things. You can have a problem with a company but still give credit where it's due - it's never black and white. There's good and bad in everything in life, and Virgin is being called out on this rather cynical manipulation of the public and media, who are largely ignorant as to what Virgin Trains actually did - and what would have happened anyway if Virgin hadn't got the franchise back in 1997.

Or do people think we'd still be using the same stock and the WCML wouldn't have had any upgrade work had another operator run the services?

He hasn't been the same since he gave up smoking .... seriously you forgot to mention First Hull Trains ....v good in 1st !!!

You are correct in the assumption the whole matter is a question of style over substance !!!

If First announced a 10% Pay Rise for all staff you wouldn't hear another squeak out of them

 

[krisk]

I would just like an answer to what the future is going to be

 

[Retorus]

You really need to speak to some of us who work at VT before you come out with rubbish like this, do you seriously think we are all chipped and brainwashed? We can see through rubbish and flannel a mile off, I personally don't trust any manager no matter how friendly they come across but VT can be and are pretty ruthless with management too. ANorthernGuard has got it pretty much right. As I've said before, people have long memories at seeing what FNW were like.

Time to move into the present.

 

[jon0844]

I haven't mentioned First Hull Trains as I've never used the service. But I have heard nothing but good things, besides the reliability of the 180s.

Imagine if Virgin had the same sort of reliability problems with its rolling stock.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

using FNW as a comparison is like comparing a 1980's Skoda with a new Skoda, two completely different beasts.

Vernon Barker MD of FNW...nuff said

 

[Philip Elliott]

I would totally disagree, First do not suffer fools so you can bet yer bottom dollar that any deadwood management would go, the reason the VT staff dont trust the First brand is all of the VT propoganda that is being fed to them by VT by the very managers who probably won't have a job for long after Dec.

You accuse people spreading lies about First Group and do the same very thing about Virgin. All the notices to sign the petition on CIS screens, PIS etc. were done by front line staff, at no point has any manager put any pressure on staff to promote the VT bid. The only official promotion has been through press releases and notices on the intranet. At no point has VT made any claim that First will treat staff poorly. The only criticism of First is based on what has been published about their bid.

Anyone remember Tim O'Toole criticising VT on their 85.5%PPM? It seems the PPM of the FGW HSS services (ie the only directly comparable ones) is 85.8%. 0.3% is obviously so much better:roll: Of course FGW doesn't have 600 miles of OHLE to worry about (yet)...

 

[David10]

What is going on regarding the e-petition???

Request made and knocked back http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/09/04-emergency-west-coast-debate-refused.html

 

[HH]

Vernon Barker MD of FNW...nuff said

Except he wasn't.

 

[davido39]

He hasn't been the same since he gave up smoking .... seriously you forgot to mention First Hull Trains ....v good in 1st !!!

You are correct in the assumption the whole matter is a question of style over substance !!!

If First announced a 10% Pay Rise for all staff you wouldn't hear another squeak out of them

Can't see First offering a 10% pay rise to VT staff, the complete opposite in fact. Oh we are so poor...blah blah blah...we have to cut back...blah blah blah...the franchise has made us destitute blah blah blah...so our employees will have to suffer while we put ticket prices up to claw back lost revenue...blah blah blah! Corporate greed is an epidemic and First Group are up to their neck in corporate greed.

 

[jon0844]

At no point has VT made any claim that First will treat staff poorly. The only criticism of First is based on what has been published about their bid.

Who went to the press suggesting First would lay off 800 staff? Where was that in the (as then) secret bid?

 

[Pen Mill]

Can't see First offering a 10% pay rise to VT staff, the complete opposite in fact. Oh we are so poor...blah blah blah...we have to cut back...blah blah blah...the franchise has made us destitute blah blah blah...so our employees will have to suffer while we put ticket prices up to claw back lost revenue...blah blah blah! Corporate greed is an epidemic and First Group are up to their neck in corporate greed.

As a matter of interest how have pay negotiations gone over the past couple of years with VT and possibly for comparison FGW ? anyone know ?