First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Philip Elliott]

Who went to the press suggesting First would lay off 800 staff? Where was that in the (as then) secret bid?

It might surprise you but Sir Richard Branson is not a manager at Virgin Trains. His response was to a leak from the DfT - is the DfT employee who was responsible for the leak that should be castigated

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Except he wasn't.

errr yes he was, then he went over to Tranpennine express, get your facts straight, he started off as Interim Finance Director then got made Managing Director. :roll:

 

[HH]

As a matter of interest how have pay negotiations gone over the past couple of years with VT and possibly for comparison FGW ? anyone know ?

IIRC this year VT was 4.4% generally and 4.6% for drivers.

Note that the ITT (and the same on GW & ET) strongly hints that it's time for above inflation pay rises in rail to stop, like they have almost everywhere else (bankers and NR directors notwithstanding).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

errr yes he was, then he went over to Tranpennine express, get your facts straight, he started off as Interim Finance Director then got made Managing Director. :roll:

He was FD of FNW for several years (not interim). He was made MD at the very end of the franchise IIRC, largely due to the fact that he was going to be MD of TPE.

 

[jon0844]

Not being a director doesn't surprise me at all. In many current or ex-Virgin companies he merely adds his face and name for marketing purposes. Such as the funny ads with cameo appearance, or publicity stunts - some very public, like topless dancing girls in the street or private stunts, like gatecrashing award ceremonies.

 

[driver_m]

Is FNW the thing that must not be mentioned on here? Virgin XC faults have been mentioned on here... a LOT.....but thats gone too.

If I find an ex-First colleague with a good word to say for them then I'll listen just as much as the ones who haven't. It's just that I haven't found one yet.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

IIRC this year VT was 4.4% generally and 4.6% for drivers.

Note that the ITT (and the same on GW & ET) strongly hints that it's time for above inflation pay rises in rail to stop, like they have almost everywhere else (bankers and NR directors notwithstanding).

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


He was FD of FNW for several years (not interim). He was made MD at the very end of the franchise IIRC, largely due to the fact that he was going to be MD of TPE.

Read this interview http://www.railwayoperators.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=90A0ue/fs7E=&tabid=182

it clearly states he was interim FD when he started at FNW

and he was certainly MD in 2002. I am sure someone on here can tell us when he started as MD

 

[WatcherZero]

Request made and knocked back http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/09/04-emergency-west-coast-debate-refused.html

Thats the request for an emergency debate at the discretion of the speaker of the house and was raised by an MP, the petition causing debate has to go through a committee to decide whether to allocate Parliamentary time to it or not.


Reason few people are raising First Hull as a comparison is because its a very small open access operation, not a franchise.

 

[tbtc]

I love the illusion that people are under whereby they believe that all Tories hate the working class...

The reality is that there's quite an overlap between the Tories and the *working* class (Basildon Man and all that).

The non-working poor, on the other hand...

Im sure part of the overall huge investment figure quoted by VT actually includes the new trains that they plane to replace the Voyagers with! So basically FG will increase capacity by 11 trains overall and VT will increase by a huge massive figure of.....1 train!

To be boring, Virgin actually have twenty one Voyagers, so it wouldn't be an increase of one, it'd be no change in fleet size (despite running all these new services to Shrewsbury/ Bolton/ Blackpool/ Stirling...)

They only use twenty of the Voyagers, but they do have twenty one.

ANorthernGuard has got it pretty much right. As I've said before, people have long memories at seeing what FNW were like.

A more realistic comparison would be TPE (a First Group franchise running trains on the West Coast Main Line).

I appreciate that some people have a chip on their shoulder about FNW, and I'm not defending that franchise, but the railway has changed a lot since then (e.g. Arriva seem do be doing a reasonable job with XC without anyone saying "ah, but they struggled with ATN").

Anyone remember Tim O'Toole criticising VT on their 85.5%PPM? It seems the PPM of the FGW HSS services (ie the only directly comparable ones) is 85.8%. 0.3% is obviously so much better:roll: Of course FGW doesn't have 600 miles of OHLE to worry about (yet)...

That's a comparison between Virgin (new trains, upgraded WCML which cost silly money) and First (running 1970s trains on lines that have seen little upgrade in recent years).

Can't see First offering a 10% pay rise to VT staff, the complete opposite in fact. Oh we are so poor...blah blah blah...we have to cut back...blah blah blah...the franchise has made us destitute blah blah blah...so our employees will have to suffer while we put ticket prices up to claw back lost revenue...blah blah blah! Corporate greed is an epidemic and First Group are up to their neck in corporate greed.

You mean the drivers will have to struggle by on £55,000 rather than £60,000? I wonder why ticket prices have gone up?

IIRC this year VT was 4.4% generally and 4.6% for drivers.

Note that the ITT (and the same on GW & ET) strongly hints that it's time for above inflation pay rises in rail to stop, like they have almost everywhere else (bankers and NR directors notwithstanding)

Most people in the non railway world seem to be getting below inflation rises or no rises at all (or cuts in hours etc).

 

[Whistler40145]

Brace yourselves for this one, would Virgin have been awarded the ICWC franchise if Labour had been in power?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Brace yourselves for this one, would Virgin have been awarded the ICWC franchise if Labour had been in power?

It would depend on if/how Labour might have changed the franchise process in the last couple of years, and how they did the scoring.
ICWC is the first big franchise award under the new system (GA was the only other one, which is not really comparable).
They would still have been chasing the highest premium.
The franchise would probably have been let earlier (without the extension VT got while they fiddled around with the ITT).
It also might have been for 7-10 years, with less investment.

 

[Whistler40145]

I was having a dig at the Tories.

What I was really trying to say is e.g. Branson isn't a Tory supporter so can the government discriminate against a franchisee if they don't support them?

 

[whhistle]

That would be the same subsidy that FGW pocketed, then baled out when the handouts stopped? The same subsidy they'll pick up this time before they toss the keys back.

Nearly as tedious as the constant drivel by people who can't be bothered checking the simplest of facts?

This has been mentioned numerous times - FirstGroup did not bail on FGW. They declined to take up an optional franchise extension. Every company in the world would have done the same.

Agreed. Replied to highlight this mistake I see nearly everywhere.

 

[Realfish]

They only use twenty of the Voyagers, but they do have twenty one.

For what it's worth, I think that the 21st Voyager is an 'out of use' two car!, its intermediate vehicles deployed to make a couple of 5 coach sets.

VT obviously seem to believe that the replacement of Voyagers with the 390/3s and the additional Pendolino seats, currently being introduced, will be sufficient to meet its passenger growth forecasts - which I suppose is the nub of the argument - First seeing those extra seats necessary for the growth, and therefore premiums, they are promising.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I really don't see why FNW are being mentioned here. Totally different franchise. Its just as bad as those people who seem to think the pendos will be disappearing and First will be replacing them with sprinters or pacers!

 

[Zoe]

VT obviously seem to believe that the replacement of Voyagers with the 390/3s and the additional Pendolino seats

Have the 6 car Pendolino trains officialy been allocated 390/3?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I really don't see why FNW are being mentioned here. Totally different franchise. Its just as bad as those people who seem to think the pendos will be disappearing and First will be replacing them with sprinters or pacers!

because it shows a part of First groups history, the bad as well as the good.

 

[WelshBluebird]

because it shows a part of First groups history, the bad as well as the good.

Doesn't really mean anything when the franchises are so different though.
Especially when its been 8 years since they handed that franchise over.

I agree that First don't always have a good reputation, and have a lot of poor performances in the past, but from what I can see the only way you can judge what "First West Coast" will be like is to look at FGW's intercity operations, and at least in my eyes those seem pretty decent (and other parts of FGW's operations have also got a fair bit better in recent years).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have the 6 car Pendolino trains officialy been allocated 390/3?

They might not even be Pendolinos.
Apparently First has two possible suppliers, though I don't see anybody beating Alstom to a 125mph tilting EMU order.
Even then it depends how similar the design is to the original 390s (now 12+ years old).

Looking back, First's experience of buying trains from Alstom is only with the not-particularly-successful class 175/180 DMUs.
Scotrail's 334s were acquired by NX before First took over.
By contrast, VT and Alstom were/are very close.

 

[driver_m]

I really don't see why FNW are being mentioned here. Totally different franchise. Its just as bad as those people who seem to think the pendos will be disappearing and First will be replacing them with sprinters or pacers!

It's simple, the company may have gone but the managers still work at current companies like TPE and Northern. It's pretty insulting to compare someone thinking a graffitied 319 is gonna turn up at Crewe on dec 9th to having justified scepticism about management that has every chance of wheedling it's way into West Coast. Just as people can find fault with a smelly toilet or operation princess so can I about it's 'previous' too. It's not as if I'm talking about the LMS or BR

 

[tbtc]

because it shows a part of First groups history, the bad as well as the good.

Exactly, it's history.

A better comparison would be with TPE (or FGW) - a lot has changed since the days of Class 101 DMUs/ the "bus-titutiopn" of most services through Stockport for long periods due to the WCML upgrade/ Class 31s on loco hauled trips/ concentrating resources on slow services to Euston whilst ignoring the "bread and butter".

 

[richw]

For what it's worth, I think that the 21st Voyager is an 'out of use' two car!, its intermediate vehicles deployed to make a couple of 5 coach sets.

Could the 2 car be used as that on a quieter route?

 

[driver_m]

Exactly, it's history.

A better comparison would be with TPE (or FGW) - a lot has changed since the days of Class 101 DMUs/ the "bus-titutiopn" of most services through Stockport for long periods due to the WCML upgrade/ Class 31s on loco hauled trips/ concentrating resources on slow services to Euston whilst ignoring the "bread and butter".

We have ex TPE too, they're of the same opinion. I'm only saying their views and can't comment on FGW

 

[Manchester77]

Could the 2 car be used as that on a quieter route?

No because the unit is missing pieces of equipment which help it drive

 

[Whistler40145]

Why on earth are some people mentioning FNW, why don't they go back even further to pre-privatisation days of Regional Railways!

 

[tbtc]

Why on earth are some people mentioning FNW, why don't they go back even further to pre-privatisation days of Regional Railways!

Dunno.

Stagecoach had a rocky start with SWT (getting rid of lots of experienced drivers, which caused many services to be withdrawn etc), but nobody is saying using what happened in the '90s as a stick to beat Virgin with.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Why on earth are some people mentioning FNW, why don't they go back even further to pre-privatisation days of Regional Railways!

First North Western is only ONE franchise ago, and only 7-8 years which is not as long as some people remember, a lot of the ex FNW managers/Directors are now part of different First Franchises, but that is not the point, like any business people remember the BAD before the GOOD!, that is human nature, Yes First have done well with other Franchises, but people still see TPE as well overcrowded. Not all their fault but they still see it, Virgin is a brand people seem to trust regardless of what all the "stats" say regarding performance etc. and First in the public eye see either late running buses (which are not really but to a general Joe Bloggs they are) or late running or overcrowded trains, yes as people who take an interest we see the reasons why but 95% of the public don't and that certainly does not make us any better than them, the way some posts are worded just because you know more integral parts of the process you are better than Mr/Mrs Joe Bloggs..you are not!

 

[Wath Yard]

TPE has seen a massive growth in passenger numbers. Is there any evidence that a company with a positive public image attracts more passengers to the railway than one with a mediocre or bad image?

If Virgin and First were both running InterCity services from the North West - London in competition with each other, then yes, a positive public image may tip the balance in Virgin's favour. But they're not.

 

[Whistler40145]

Every TOC will have its up & downs, they cannot always be popular & ensures they can learn & improve.

 

[HH]

Read this interview http://www.railwayoperators.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=90A0ue/fs7E=&tabid=182

it clearly states he was interim FD when he started at FNW

When he started maybe. But he was FD for several years. I can't say that I know him well, but I know him enough - I've worked with him on a couple of occasions. The problems at FNW were not down to him (and actually not largely down to First as much of the damage was done when it was run by GWT); what he did at TPE pretty well demonstrates this. Indeed if you knew him at all, you'd realise that he's a pretty solid guy - deeply religious but doesn't need to convert everyone, and a real supporter of charity, without shouting about it - his OBE was totally deserved.

I don't agree with everything he does, but he definitely is worthy of respect; and I wouldn't say that about everyone at his level. Not by a long shot.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

because it shows a part of First groups history, the bad as well as the good.

The operative word is History. Would you like everything you've ever done in your life to be brought up 20 years later? I know that I wouldn't.

 

[honda3100]

you have hit the nail right on the head ,only money talks.