First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[ainsworth74]

Its an air compressor, that takes the brakes off. anyway it would have apitiful amount of seating. Hopefully some extra carriages for it will be included in project thor. be they with or without diesel engines

I think it would be more logical to reform 221144 into it's four car formation and then transfer 221142-144 to XC in exchange for two five car 221s. That way ICWC get's a uniform fleet of five car Super Voyagers whilst XC gains an extra unit and we no longer have two cars sat out of passenger service.

 

[Yew]

I think it would be more logical to reform 221144 into it's four car formation and then transfer 221142-144 to XC in exchange for two five car 221s. That way ICWC get's a uniform fleet of five car Super Voyagers whilst XC gains an extra unit and we no longer have two cars sat out of passenger service.

Hasnt the tilt been removed from XC's voyagers? and steel bars wleded in its place? maybe that could cause problems?

 

[ainsworth74]

Hasnt the tilt been removed from XC's voyagers? and steel bars wleded in its place? maybe that could cause problems?

As far as I'm aware they have to be kept in such a condition that the tilt can be restored without too much difficultly. I doubt that the ROSCO would sign off on permanently crippling a USP of some of their rolling stock. Though hopefully someone else will be able to confirm one way or the other.

 

[atomicdanny]

Reuters news agency reporting today that WCML franchise may well be operated by DOR as from 9 December;

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/uk-virgin-rail-idUKBRE88806H20120909

Hopefully that will happen, although I think they should merge it with the East Coast and call it something like ... how about Intercity! (doubt that will happen though for either of them)

 

[HH]

You have Dave Kaye who was MD of FGE after Bob Breakwell retired and continued the good work by his predecessor and led the company to many awards including train operator of the year.

Of course FNW was not perfect by any means, but 2-3 of the staff who worked there have proven at other franchises that they are not totally useless.

Thanks guys for making my point. Dave & Mark (& probably Vernon) were brought in to FNW to help sort out what was a very poor TOC.

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It'll be interesting to see just how much the culture at First has changed now Moir Lockhead has retired and Tim O'Toole has taken over.

From my experience of First starting 12 years ago there was a culture of continually making management reapply for their jobs which meant that anyone who was any good tended to steer clear while you had a few who would try and make a man for themselves occassionally to the detrament of the front line staff. It's interesting to note that quite a few of those managers who did make a name for themselves a lot have progressed within the rail industry with other companies.

It takes time to change a culture, but I'm betting it will change. ML was a bus man through and through. The general opinion was that he didn't really understand rail. Luckily he had some good managers who did.

First did not have a culture of making managers re-apply for their jobs. That was probably down to a specific TOC. They were not very tolerant with failure though - you could certainly say that there was a blame culture. But from my experience a lot of the culture within TOCs is down to the Directors, particularly the MD, of that TOC.

 

[tbtc]

I think it would be more logical to reform 221144 into it's four car formation and then transfer 221142-144 to XC in exchange for two five car 221s. That way ICWC get's a uniform fleet of five car Super Voyagers whilst XC gains an extra unit and we no longer have two cars sat out of passenger service.

1. Why wasn't this done at the "divorce" of the XC/ West Coast fleets?
2. Why hasn't it been done since?

It seems so logical

 

[Ferret]

1. Why wasn't this done at the "divorce" of the XC/ West Coast fleets?
2. Why hasn't it been done since?

It seems so logical

Cos AXC needs all the 5 car toys it can get?!

 

[ainsworth74]

Cos AXC needs all the 5 car toys it can get?!

Overall it would net them an extra two coaches and an extra unit to play with meaning a current four/five car service could be extended to a eight/nine car. I don't think XC lose out here.

 

[calc7]

Overall it would net them an extra two coaches and an extra unit to play with meaning a current four/five car service could be extended to a eight/nine car. I don't think XC lose out here.

One diagram would be down a coach, e.g. 5 to 4, if my working is correct

 

[ainsworth74]

One diagram would be down a coach, e.g. 5 to 4, if my working is correct

On the other hand another could be up four

Either way this is a) off topic and b) not worth having a massive discussion about so unless anyone is burning to prove me wrong/right I'm happy to drop this and move back towards talking about FWC/ICWC/VTWC.

 

[williamn]

Contingency plans are being made for government operation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/virgin-rail-idUSL5E8K90J920120909

(Reuters) - The British government is preparing to nationalise Virgin Trains' West Coast railway train operating franchise following its attempts to delay the handover of the network to rival operator First Group which won the franchise renewal bid, the Sunday Times newspaper said.
Virgin's campaign for a judicial review of the government's decision to award the franchise to First Group has delayed the signing of the contract and could put back indefinitely the handover, which is due to take place on Dec. 9.
Ministers are now preparing to transfer the service to state-owned Directly Operated Railways, the paper said, quoting the Department for Transport as saying it was "looking at our responsibilities under section 30 of the Railways Act and it is only prudent to increase our focus on contingency planning".
The Department for Transport declined to comment further.
Virgin Trains, a joint venture of entrepreneur Richard Branson's Virgin Group and trains and buses operator Stagecoach, could not be reached for comment.

 

[eastdyke]

I am slightly puzzled and hope that someone can please point this up for me.

What is the Transport Select Committee seeking to establish?
Why are the Transport Secretary & DfT not also called to give evidence ? (or perhaps they are?).

Thanks.

PS The witnesses had better allow extra time to travel, there is a little parade of athletes in Central London on Monday afternoon.

Re the Transport Select Committee hearing today.
I posed the above questions last week and am still struggling with the logic.
Perhaps the answers are blindingly obvious and that I shouldn't ask such stupid questions.

If so please tell me.

Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

For those interested, here's some details from the Parliament Channel:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11378

It should be screened today at 4:05pm.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Transport Select Committe is investigating the allegation of incompetence/neglect in the awarding of the contract to a shaky bid and the wider flaws in the tendering process. For the first session Branson and Virgin will be giving evidence/cross examined then Tim O'Toole and other First Group people will be giving evidence. Its likely that the Minister and a senior civil servant in charge of the process will be called to a second session.

On that note doesnt look like BBC Parliament will be carrying this committee unless they alter the schedule (possible with public interest) they are currently slated to show debate over the EU treaty amendment Bill that allows the Eurozone countries to actively save the Euro (which is irrelevent to the UK as it doesnt use the Euro so is a mere formality to pass).

 

[eastdyke]

The Transport Select Committe is investigating and the wider flaws in the tendering process. For the first session Branson and Virgin will be giving evidence/cross examined then Tim O'Toole and other First Group people will be giving evidence. Its likely that the Minister and a senior civil servant in charge of the process will be called to a second session.

On that note doesnt look like BBC Parliament will be carrying this committee unless they alter the schedule (possible with public interest) they are currently slated to show debate over the EU treaty amendment Bill that allows the Eurozone countries to actively save the Euro (which is irrelevent to the UK as it doesnt use the Euro so is a mere formality to pass).

Thank you.

As far as I can tell the main protagonist with respect to 'the allegation of incompetence/neglect in the awarding of the contract to a shaky bid' is Virgin Trains Ltd. who have taken the matter to the court (the current application for Judicial Review). At this stage the Transport Select Committee giving them 'air time' is surely to no effect? (and a platform for red herrings?).


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Live coverage of the meeting should appear here at parliamenttv:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11378

 

[cambsy]

Have read in This Is Money that the DFT is looking at running West Coast by DOR, because of judicial review, not sure wether permanently or temporarily, it is a contingency plan. They been looking at responsibilities under section 30 of railway act.

 

[Realfish]

Contingency plans are being made for government operation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/09/virgin-rail-idUSL5E8K90J920120909

I wonder if the DfT may be creating a legal minefield for themselves if this is true. The new SoS needs to make sure that his Sir Humpreys' have got this right; that he is not being badly advised and potentially embarrassed.

Invoking S.30 in this case would be questionalbe and very different from the circumstances that existed on the EC when the financial distress of the TOC meant that there was a requirement in law for the Governement to step in as the 'operator of last resort'. There is absolutely no threat to continuity of service here and VT might be able to successfully argue that the Status Quo should be maintained until the matter is resolved - the only reason for a delay in the handover being that a judge considers there may be merit in VT's argument of a defective process at the DfT and this needs to be examined further.

DfT's action, or their threat of action, together with the previous SoS's ill advised criticism of VT, might even strengthen VTs claim that the Dept are acting in an illogical and unlawful way.

 

[snail]

There is absolutely no threat to continuity of service here and VT might be able to successfully argue that the Status Quo should be maintained until the matter is resolved

But is there a service to continue? The current franchise expires on December 9th. If the new franchise agreement is not signed there will be no franchise to operate. Virgin are not renewing their franchise, they are negotiating a completely fresh one, with different conditions. The responsibility for ensuring a service on the WCML lies with the DfT.

The only way I can see your scenario being valid would be an option in the current agreement to continue service beyond the end date if no one has signed up to take it on in a timely manner from December.

 

[OxtedL]

Indeed, it would surely be inappropriate to award Virgin with a provisional franchise extension - they would potentially make some money from this, and given that it is they who are kicking up the fuss then it must be quite simply not an option.

They can't really award it to First either while the fuss is being kicked as that would not be appropriate.

Therefore to prevent anarchy from being left in charge of day to day operations, DOR will need to step in.

 

[Wath Yard]

I don't know how much the Virgin PR team are being paid, but when I see arguments that it would be illegal and immoral to not allow them to continue cashing in on a government contract they have lost, it isn't anywhere near enough.

 

[WatcherZero]

Virgin offered to run it for free but they knew the Government wouldnt take it as it would be seen to be favouring the litigant, its more to do with preventing them being liable for any costs from DOR, if they offered to do it for free the Government cant turn around and sue for costs incurred. Its a good tactical defensive play.

 

[Wath Yard]

Would you like to provide evidence of this 'offer to run it free', other than someone mouthing off in the press.

Also, could you show me exactly where in the documented franchising process, which you argue is so flawed and hasn't been adhered to, it states that after the process has completed one of the losers can then change their offer?

 

[jon0844]

Virgin cannot be allowed to keep the franchise during a dispute, any more than First can take over as 'business as usual until told otherwise'. So, DOR seems ideal in this situation.

If it was as simple as kicking up a fuss and being allowed to keep running the franchise until a final, final, final decision is made (I'm sure the company would see every reason to use every loophole in the book to keep appealing, seeking further reviews, referring it to the EC etc) then everyone would do it. Franchising would be a nightmare as it could take years to sort them all out.

Clearly the people who signed the petition and are so very vocal about allowing Virgin to run things in the meantime aren't merely supporting Virgin, but using it as a way to attack a Government they don't like. I doubt Labour would have had the same fuss, especially with SRB being a Labour supporter and having donated quite a lot of money to the party.

Can you imagine if National Express had kicked up a fuss when it lost West Anglia? Could they have argued to carry on running things while an appeal was made, along with all the other tricks that Virgin will employ?

It doesn't matter that National Express was regarded as not having done a good job, or at least it shouldn't. The tendering process was either right, or it wasn't. If it wasn't then nobody wins and DOR steps in. Virgin cannot run the franchise any longer than it ran until - beyond that it doesn't exist for anyone until a winner is chosen and the new franchise, with its new rules, can legally start.

If we want to ditch traditional politics and switch to a system where popularity makes decisions, and people can vote by ranting on Twitter or setting up a Facebook page, then clearly Virgin would win. In fact, Virgin could win lots of franchises and contracts, especially with the 'not for profit' offer that I'm sure isn't quite as clear cut. For one, Virgin would still have to pay salaries and I'm sure management could still pay themselves quite handsomely. Does anyone believe these 'Safety Camera Partnerships' that were set up under Labour were anything more than clever ways to allow certain individuals to get very rich, despite the partnerships not making profits?

And without profits, presumably VT wouldn't have to make any payments, nor would there be any money to invest in upgrades.. so it's hardly logical to run a train operator that doesn't seek to make profit. But it looks good, and is bound to get support.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a bit moot really, First tried to do exactly the same thing legally challenging a franchise award on the basis theirs offered a greater improvement for passengers than the larger winning bid, in fact they were the first company to attempt it. Plenty of people also kicked up a fuss in the two previous franchise defaults saying they were unsustainable and they were proved right. Accusations as to a sinister businessman out for a quick buck are laughable. The hate for Branson if frankly an alarmingly demonstratable example of people hating a winner and loving the underdog, hes a self made man and for some people thats a living example of their own personal failures and jealousies breeding irrational disdain.

Do you know how many Government contract awards are challenged every year? 54, yet only one has produced an irrational disdain of the challenger.

 

[jopsuk]

How does this differ substantially from what First have announced they will/would do?

As Richard Branson heads to meet the Transport Select Committee today, Virgin Trains has set out in detail why its bid offers more passenger improvements and a more secure financial deal for the taxpayers.
Virgin Trains is pledging to invest £800m to deliver:

New destinations and improved services

New services to Telford, Shrewsbury, Blackpool, Bolton, Stirling, Motherwell, Hartford and Liverpool South Parkway.
Increased services to destinations in North Wales, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Stafford
More capacity on the Birmingham-Scotland route.
Faster journey times between London and Glasgow.

New trains

* Greener trains and a better passenger environment with the replacement of all of the Voyager trains with 21 6-car ‘Baby Pendolinos’, meaning no diesel operation over electrified lines.
* An extensive refurbishment of all the current Pendolinos.

New state-of-the-art ticketing

* A revolutionary new centralised booking engine, a first for the UK rail industry, to provide passengers with a one-stop-shop experience.
* Introduction of Smart Ticketing and a new loyalty scheme.

New and enhanced onboard offering

* Complete onboard refresh, with a new state-of-the-art Wi-Fi system capable of growing with passenger needs.
* An enhanced at seat complimentary First Class service and a new at seat Standard Class service.

Improved station facilities

* Installation of ticket gates, a number of station improvement projects including more car parking, ticket machines, CCTV and information points.
Head over to Virgin Trains for all the latest news and updates.
By Greg Rose. Content Manager. Tweets @greglrose and blogs at greglrose.com

 

[jon0844]

People can make mistakes or bad decisions. I think Richard Branson is a very good, shrewd businessman who has done plenty of good things to earn his reputation and title. But that doesn't make him God.

He's dropped the ball on this one by thinking he's bigger than everyone else. Hardly the underdog anymore! [Mind you, if he does win then he'll have proven just how poweful he is, and I'll stand corrected but certainly never EVER consider him a man of the people anymore, just someone looking out for number one]

There are many franchises in operation right now, with many having changed hands since 1997, and only two have ended because of the operator(s) having financial difficulties, and even one of those was arguably down to an indirect cause.

Ironically, both happened on the same franchise - which happened to be another Intercity route. However, what about the others? And in the future, given the taxpayer is always moaning about how much is wasted on the railway, aren't they going to get what they want by having companies having to pay more TO the Government instead of taking it?

What do people want? Value for the taxpayer one minute, but then someone like Sir Richard running a rail network the next - even if that means giving him a subsidy? Double standards or what?

I have no issue with people who might actually argue that increased subsidies, which in turn could lower the cost of rail travel for the passenger, is actually a good thing. In other words, we consider transport as an essential service and pay for it to run cheaper than it actually costs. But that still doesn't automatically mean Virgin wins everything it bids for. Unless, of course, it makes the best bid. Best bid meaning ticking all the boxes on what the contract requires.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Re the Transport Select Committee hearing today.
I posed the above questions last week and am still struggling with the logic.
Perhaps the answers are blindingly obvious and that I shouldn't ask such stupid questions.
If so please tell me.
Thanks

The new Secretary of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin) is due before the TSC on Wednesday 12 September at 1405 (with chief mandarin).
This was a pre-arranged session, but was referred to by chair Louise Ellman in her request to defer the WC franchise award.

This is DfT-wide of course, and while half the committee will want to debate the WC fiasco, the other half will want to talk about Heathrow and airports policy.
Plenty of scope to avoid difficult questions...
In any case, they will not be harsh on a new boy in his first session.

 

[Furrball]

MPs take evidence on west coast mainline rail franchise
Transport Committee questions Sir Richard Branson of Virgin Group and Tim O'Toole CBE of FirstGroup

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/transport-committee/

Watch live from 16.05 apparently.

 

[Polarbear]

This is funny...

http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/virgin-launches-new-route-to-scotland.html

 

[richw]

And everyone was worried about First, or Virgin having a monopoly with both East and West coast potentially being operated by one. Same thing if DOR has both really, and probably best value for the tax payer!