First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Eagle]

Back in 1991/1992 TSW went to court over the ITC decision to award the ITV franchise to Westcountry.

Of course you have to remember that in that case there was 15 months between the date the franchises were awarded and the date they started, so there was enough time for all that. With this rail franchise, the gap is less than four months.


Also IIRC TSW's bid was over twice that of Westcountry's, but it was rejected for being too high (as in, they would be paying the ITC so much they wouldn't have enough money left to actually run the station). Same thing happened to TVS, but they were evidently better losers—perhaps because they had other assets at the time, such as the cable/satellite Family Channel (which after a few years became Challenge).

 

[Zoe]

With this rail franchise, the gap is less than four months.

I'm not sure that would be sufficient reason to deny leave to appeal though.

 

[Hazlehead]

I'm not sure that would be sufficient reason to deny leave to appeal though.

But remember Bransons promise to respect judges decision and walk away quietly

 

[Zoe]

But remember Bransons promise to respect judges decision and walk away quietly

Did he clearly say which judge he was reffering to? The Court of Appeal has judges.

 

[krisk]

Judge Judy? Judge Dredd?

 

[91101]

Judge Judy...in fact even better lets get Branson and O'Toole on Jerry Springer!!

 

[Whistler40145]

No, it's Judge John Deed!

 

[HH]

Thanks for that information. So a little earlier we were hearing that the legal documents and the reaction to them in the "corridors of power" were suggesting there is a case to answer, and by inference that it might go against the DfT, and now we have another apparently well-informed view that the outcome is unlikely to result in Virgin retaining the franchise.

These are not mutually exclusive, as I have been pointing out. Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The preliminary hearing happened yesterday (28th SEP). No real news, oddly, the DFT submitted their side of the case on the deadline and no earlier, they have'nt at this stage counted VT's claim(s) in their defensive case. The next hearing will take place on Monday Oct 15th. The DFT are fast tracking this review, so the next hearing will be both the judge hearing the information from all 3 parties involved AND reviewing the case (if there is one).

Strange as they are doing this all on the same day.

Anyway, thought i'd keep this thread updated with whats happening..

Obviously I could'nt possibly say, but if I was a betting man, I would not be betting that VT retains this franchise.

A number of errors in the above I fear. The DfT's submission is stamped as received 20 September and states that they and FWCL will file "Detailed Grounds and evidence" by 4pm on 4 October. First appear to have filed theirs already. VT submitted their detailed claim on 28 September.

DfT are asking for the claim to be heard during the week commencing 15 October.

 

[Holly]

So does anyone have views as to how DOR operation affects:

... the Office of Rail Regulation’s announcement that it must await a 'full recast of the timetable' before considering whether or not Open Access Operators can serve destinations along the West Coast Main Line. ...
Grand Central had proposed introducing its North Western service between Blackpool North and London

 

[tbtc]

So does anyone have views as to how DOR operation affects:

Since both First and Virgin promised a direct Blackpool - London service, I'm not sure what space there would be for any Open Access, regardless of who won?

 

[Hazlehead]

Updates on sky news from First. Nothing really new just basically saying still preparing to take over on 9th Dec

 

[HH]

Updates on sky news from First. Nothing really new just basically saying still preparing to take over on 9th Dec

This is probably aimed at the markets; their results are due out and, from what it said in the FT yesterday, there are serious doubts about what's happening at First.

 

[Masboroughlad]

This is probably aimed at the markets; their results are due out and, from what it said in the FT yesterday, there are serious doubts about what's happening at First.

What did the FT say yesterday please?

 

[YorkshireRider]

deleted

 

[HH]

What did the FT say yesterday please?

Greyhound UK close to being killed, Student Bus (US) has problems, as does UK Bus. They need WC...

 

[tbtc]

Greyhound UK close to being killed

It's only three routes isn't it?

London - Glasgow, London - Portsmouth and a route from Cardiff to Swansea?

 

[The Ham]

a date has been set:
http://railnews.co.uk/news/2012/10/02-date-announced-for-virgin-court.html

VIRGIN TRAINS will be able to test its claim against the DfT over the award of the West Coast franchise in the High Court later this month, because the date has been confirmed.

Virgin said the hearing has been set down to begin on Wednesday 17 October, which is two weeks tomorrow.

Three days have been allowed for Virgin and the Department for Transport to make their respective cases, although there is no certainty that a judgment will be given immediately the hearing ends. There is also the possibility that the losing side could apply for permission to appeal.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Some discussion about Greyhound here:
http://omnibuses.blogspot.ie/2012/10/greyhound-endangered-species.html

Statement from First:
http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pd...ions/pre-close_update_sep12_press-release.pdf

 

[YorkshireRider]

What did the FT say yesterday please?

The article also mentioned how difficult it has been for First to sell off some of its bus operations in the current economic climate. It also quotes 2 leading anaylists, one of which asked not to be named who questions 'the selling of assets on the cheap to pay for shareholder dividends as a bad idea'. The other anaylist quoted also agreed this was odd.
It also mentions 55% of Firsts revenue still comes from the US, which is maybe one of the reasons O Toole was appointed given he still spends half his time over there.

 

[eastdyke]

a date has been set:
http://railnews.co.uk/news/2012/10/02-date-announced-for-virgin-court.html

At last! We stand a chance of some progress although if either side should appeal the decision it could still go on a long long time.

 

[BrianTheLion]

a date has been set:
http://railnews.co.uk/news/2012/10/02-date-announced-for-virgin-court.html

This article has got me thinking about the failure of National Express on the ECML...

Surely the powers that be wouldn't put the public in a position where that could happen again?

 

[HH]

This article has got me thinking about the failure of National Express on the ECML...

Surely the powers that be wouldn't put the public in a position where that could happen again?

Did you never watch "Yes, Minister"?

 

[3141]

This article has got me thinking about the failure of National Express on the ECML...

Surely the powers that be wouldn't put the public in a position where that could happen again?

Not intentionally. But if offered a high level of premium they'd want to accept that bid if at all possible. I suspect that some DfT officials wouldn't be sorry to see the back of Branson and Virgin. They'll have been under pressure from the Treasury to get the maximum possible amount from the West Coast franchise. The First bid seems to offer more (new EMUs and keep the Voyagers as well). They'd have to be able to demonstrate that First's bid had been a step too far, if they had rejected it. In such a set of circumstances human nature can fool itself into believing "it different this time".

 

[Wath Yard]

It is different this time. If NXEC were to be repeated then the Virgin bid would have been accepted. NXEC failed in its second year and Virgin's bid is riskier in the early years. NXEC's failure had nothing to do with back-loading.

There are arguments for and against both bids but when NXEC is constantly dredged up as an argument for FirstGroup not taking over it does get tedious, especially when it is completely irrelevant. You may as well bring Chiltern into the argument. That hasn't failed, therefore First won't fail!

 

[jon0844]

Thanks to Virgin's excellent marketing, we've gone from hating greedy private operators that enjoy fat cat profits (even if it's only 4-5% in reality) to suddenly hating companies that are bidding loads of money to pay into the public purse.

Even the offer to run the railway and give the money to charity isn't good when the taxpayer contributes so much. What Virgin should do is give all the profit to the Government - i.e. us.

Sort of like what First is doing by bidding more money...

 

[Lampshade]

Just been on BBC News, the government is to re-run the competition.

 

[F Great Eastern]

You would expect First now would perhaps take legal action against the department.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the process, the fact is that First won the franchise based on the rules that the DFT outlined. If the process was indeed technically flawed then surely First would be due some compensation?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yep just been announced, Government admitted it cocked up in favour of First and so the competition will be rerun, victory for Virgin. Before it even got to court, DFT must have found something damming while preparing their defence.

 

[Realfish]

Just been on BBC News, the government is to re-run the competition.

Confirmed on Sky. The Transport Minister has said that the competition has been cancelled following the discovery of 'significant technical flaws' in the process.

It seems that Virgin's concerns and actions have been vindicated. Not that it means that they will eventually win the franchise though.

DfT should now offer VT a temporary extension until the matter is resolved. If they have suffered a detriment they should not be penalised further.

A full inquiry must also take place in DfT and heads should roll.

 

[F Great Eastern]

WatcherZero, I'd be careful how you word the above post. What I heard was there was a technical issue with he process, not that there had been any kind of underhand bias towards any bidder.

DOR should now take over still in my book though and the contest should be re-run, although I can see Virgin perhaps getting an extension now.

This will perhaps put the other franchise back, such as the Great Western Franchise.