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HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

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6Gman

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I understood that the preferred route for HS2 Lichfield - Manchester was due to be announced in 'Autumn 2012'. Well, it's now November so does anyone know of a date?

I was at a meeting this week where a senior Cheshire politician suggested that after by-passing Stafford HS2 would follow the existing WCML into Crewe (he seemed a bit vague on how exactly this was to be achieved), where a station was to be provided.

Given how few intermediate stations there will be on HS1 it seems improbable that a town like Crewe would get one ....

Observations please.
 
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Train jaune

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errrmmmm... Think you may be confusing "senior Cheshire Politician" with that more frequent entity "Bulls*****g nonentity"
 

YorkshireBear

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The change in secretary of state has delayed announcement, they were half way through showing greening route and she got shifted and they had to start again. Now set for spring 2013.
 

MarkyT

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. . . . after by-passing Stafford HS2 would follow the existing WCML into Crewe . . . . where a station was to be provided.

Given how few intermediate stations there will be on HS1 it seems improbable that a town like Crewe would get one ....

Observations please.

Would make a good 'parkway' site for a wide area including Cheshire and The Potteries. If located next to the existing domestic station, think of the connectional possibilities by rail as well, a kind of 'Ashford of the North' :).
 

Lewisham2221

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Would make a good 'parkway' site for a wide area including Cheshire and The Potteries. If located next to the existing domestic station, think of the connectional possibilities by rail as well, a kind of 'Ashford of the North' :).

You'd have to bomb half of Crewe though to make space for the line, the station, an appropriately sized (read huge) car park and suitable supporting road infrastructure - if you've ever stood outside the front of Crewe station during the day, let alone at peak times, you'll know how horrendous the traffic can be at existing levels.
 

Wath Yard

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If the press's description of the DfT as a totally demoralised, panic stricken mess, post ICWC fiasco, is true - and I suspect it is, I doubt DfT Rail will be announcing anything in the near future.
 

6Gman

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errrmmmm... Think you may be confusing "senior Cheshire Politician" with that more frequent entity "Bulls*****g nonentity"

The worrying thing is that he is undoubtedly a "senior Cheshire politician" [for various reasons I'd better not identify him].

Of course, that doesn't rule out him uttering bull**** :D
 

All Line Rover

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You'd have to bomb half of Crewe though to make space for the line, the station, an appropriately sized (read huge) car park

Not necessarily a bad thing! :lol:

and suitable supporting road infrastructure - if you've ever stood outside the front of Crewe station during the day, let alone at peak times, you'll know how horrendous the traffic can be at existing levels.

This is a problem that looks set to continue for years to come. The bridge that runs along the frontage of the station is a major bottleneck that is difficult to resolve.
 

nerd

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according to McLoughlin; he 'hopes'

PLANS for the new High Speed rail route will be announced before Christmas, according to the Transport Secretary.

Patrick McLoughlin made the announcement during a tour of Nottingham which included a ride on the Centrelink electric buses, which run every ten minutes between the Broadmarsh and Victoria Centre bus stations, via the Old Market Square.

The current plans for High Speed 2 (HS2) include a link between Birmingham and London, with the journey taking 49 minutes.

Plans for the second phase will be announced before Christmas and will include further details about a line from Birmingham to Manchester and another from Birmingham to Leeds, which could include an East Midlands station.

Mr McLoughlin said: "I hope to make an announcement on the routes before Christmas. HS2 is not just about having quicker journey times, it's about expanding trade off roads long term."

Consultations will take place in early 2014, with the chosen option set to be announced later that year. Construction will take place between 2017 and 2025. The cost of the first line is estimated as between £15.8 billion and £17.4 billion.

The extensions to Leeds and Manchester will bring the total cost to £30 billion.

The complication appears to be that aspects of the Phase 2 route are dependent upon decisions as to the Phase 3 route within Scotland. McLoughlin has proposed a joint study into the Phase 3 route, by DfT and Transport Scotland, to be undertaken early next year. That means that he probably can't announce the definitive Phase 2 route until he has agreed the terms of reference and membership of the Phase 3 study with his Holyrood counterparts.
 

deltic

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I understood that the preferred route for HS2 Lichfield - Manchester was due to be announced in 'Autumn 2012'. Well, it's now November so does anyone know of a date?

I was at a meeting this week where a senior Cheshire politician suggested that after by-passing Stafford HS2 would follow the existing WCML into Crewe (he seemed a bit vague on how exactly this was to be achieved), where a station was to be provided.

Given how few intermediate stations there will be on HS1 it seems improbable that a town like Crewe would get one ....

Observations please.

Your senior politican is probably half correct - from what I understand there will be a link from HS2 to WCML near Crewe to allow classic compatable services to operate to Liverpool and North Wales (stopping at Crewe but no new HS2 station) and possibly a track maintenance depot also to be located in the area
 

Lewisham2221

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Not necessarily a bad thing! :lol:



This is a problem that looks set to continue for years to come. The bridge that runs along the frontage of the station is a major bottleneck that is difficult to resolve.

Indeed, without demolishing the hotel and building a new bridge parallel to the existing one I can't see any obvious way to solve the problem. And if you do that, you still have the problem of the adjacent roundabout, which can easily take 15 - 20 minutes to negotiate at peak times. Of course, if you flattened half of the town, the traffic would have no need to be there. Now there's an idea... :lol:

 

Holly

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... from what I understand there will be a link from HS2 to WCML near Crewe to allow classic compatable services to operate to Liverpool and North Wales ...
That's the first suggestion I have heard of HS2 Phase 2 serving North Wales.

The alternative route to Chester, other than going through Crewe, would be to build a new chord at Runcorn South.
 

D365

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That's the first suggestion I have heard of HS2 Phase 2 serving North Wales.

Would be handy for a Holyhead-Dublin tunnel using an electric NWCL - bit too much fantasy involved :o
 

The Ham

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from what I understand there will be a link from HS2 to WCML near Crewe to allow classic compatable services to operate to Liverpool and North Wales (stopping at Crewe but no new HS2 station)

It is likely that even towns (north of Birmingham) with HS2 stations will also be served by classic compatible services, as there will be probably be enough demand for services running on the existing lines to Birmingham and then fast to London and doing the reverse, ether for London Bound services and for services heading to the new towns served by HS2.

The more destinations which can be connected to HS2 via classic compatible services the better the business case becomes. Also it means that more services can be removed from the existing WCML freeing it up to enable new services to run.
 

HSTEd

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Classic Compatible trains are worse for the business case than captive ones for a variety of reasons that I have stated several times.

After 4tph goes to all three end points that leaves about 6 trains per hour, at most, for classic compatibles.... which is drastically less than many people here seem to hope for.
 

The Ham

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Classic Compatible trains are worse for the business case than captive ones for a variety of reasons that I have stated several times.

After 4tph goes to all three end points that leaves about 6 trains per hour, at most, for classic compatibles.... which is drastically less than many people here seem to hope for.

Could you not join the CC trains together to run them on HS2?
 

HSTEd

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Could you not join the CC trains together to run them on HS2?

Yes you could, but since the HS2 Ltd study keeps proposing 250m CC trains for a large part of the classic compatible fleet, this does not appear to be on the agenda.

I have said it before and I will say it again, there should only be two train types: a captive double decker 400m trainset and a classic compatible 200m trainset.
 

YorkshireBear

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Yes you could, but since the HS2 Ltd study keeps proposing 250m CC trains for a large part of the classic compatible fleet, this does not appear to be on the agenda.

I have said it before and I will say it again, there should only be two train types: a captive double decker 400m trainset and a classic compatible 200m trainset.

The literature i have read states that CC will be able to run doubled up on HS2.
 

HSTEd

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The literature i have read states that CC will be able to run doubled up on HS2.

Yes, but the 200m trains that will be able to run doubled up constitute roughly half the fleet, a rather large percentage will be 250m trains that can't run in formation with 250m or 200m trains as they will then be too long for all the platforms.
 

Chris125

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Yes, but the 200m trains that will be able to run doubled up constitute roughly half the fleet, a rather large percentage will be 250m trains that can't run in formation with 250m or 200m trains as they will then be too long for all the platforms.

If doubling up CC units wasn't 'on the agenda' they wouldn't need the majority of CC trainsets to be 200m - in fact according to the latest numbers i can find for rolling stock there will be 105x200m captive sets, 68x200m CC sets and just 15x260m sets.

Chris
 

Nym

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Could you not join the CC trains together to run them on HS2?

Yes.

Yes you could, but since the HS2 Ltd study keeps proposing 250m CC trains for a large part of the classic compatible fleet, this does not appear to be on the agenda.

I have said it before and I will say it again, there should only be two train types: a captive double decker 400m trainset and a classic compatible 200m trainset.

I've read that too, that the 260m long CC trainsets would be deployed, but only on Newcastle routes to try and retain a decent amount of capacity.

This could be gotten round by having more services running to Newcastle and/or Edinbrugh from London via HS2; alternatively, when HS2 eventually results in changes at Newcastle Central, 400m platforms could be installed.

If you read back a long way you'll see my own plans for what a timetable could look like with a Sheffeild Station at Nunnery Square provided for Classic Compatiable Services to split (at 3tph) where half would run to Newcastle / Edinbrugh and the other half to Lincoln, Harrogate, Bradford, Hull, Scunthorpe etc etc etc. (Potentially hauled by a designed locomotive with DVT-ability compatability with the EMU).

A similar situation was something I was looking at with a lot of extended enhancements around Manchester with three stations (1 central 2 parkways) that involved running four classic compatable (1 leaving at Rugley, 3 at Manchester) and 3 captive services from London. With plans changing to provide a link into the WCML at Crewe (potentially) this would change to a similar 3+3 timetable or 3+4 with services splitting at Crewe for destinations including Chester (1tph), Liverpool (2tph), Preston (2tph), where, similar to the "All services have half running to Newcastle" situation on the Eastern side, something like, "Half to Preston, Half to Liverpool" timetable at 4tph or services running as:

1tph Liverpool via Runcorn and Blackpool (Slow via Preston)
1tph Liverpool via St Helens and Glasgow Central (Fast via Preston)
1tph Chester / Holyhead / Llandudno and Manchester Piccadilly via Wilmslow
 

LE Greys

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I've read that too, that the 260m long CC trainsets would be deployed, but only on Newcastle routes to try and retain a decent amount of capacity.

This could be gotten round by having more services running to Newcastle and/or Edinbrugh from London via HS2; alternatively, when HS2 eventually results in changes at Newcastle Central, 400m platforms could be installed.

That would mean goodbye to end-to-end traffic on the ECML. Depending on whether there is a convenient interchange at Leeds or York, whether there is a station convenient for Teesside and what sort of connections are available, it produces a number of scenarios from 'minor inconvenience' to 'complete disaster' for anyone living on the ECML between Hatfield and Chester-le-Street.
 

Nym

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That would mean goodbye to end-to-end traffic on the ECML. Depending on whether there is a convenient interchange at Leeds or York, whether there is a station convenient for Teesside and what sort of connections are available, it produces a number of scenarios from 'minor inconvenience' to 'complete disaster' for anyone living on the ECML between Hatfield and Chester-le-Street.

I'm yet to come up with a full timetable, but it very much depends on what route HS2 is going to take, and how much more line speed can be teased out of the ECML between York and Newcastle by ERTMS and ETCS fitments...

I can personally see 3tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh (1XC, 1ECML and 1HS2)

For Tyneside I would (personally) be developing Newcastle Central with a parkway station at either Washington or Gateshead MetroCentre, with a classic line connection East of Newcastle Central. This of course would be when dedicated infrastructure comes to reach Tyneside, simple gauge improvements can be provided to get through the suburbs of Newcastle toward Edinburgh.

For Tyneside, I'd be looking at sending a Classic Compatible service that way, if we have 3tph CC services running initially, with 3tph to Newcastle and 3tph splitting off for elsewhere (Ex. Leeds) there is plenty of scope there for 1tph to Middlesbrough or Sunderland. The remaining 2tph running to other places in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire (Splitting off at Sheffield or York)

Since I'm working here on HS2b E&W reaching "Leeds Delta Junction" and "Manchester West Parkway" with a connection retained at Rugley, possibly an additional HS connection to Crewe.

On the 'classic' ECML I would look at retaining 2 or 3tph core services, but these would call at more intermediate stations, all calling at Peterborough and Doncaster, extending from here to Leeds and Newcastle, possibly 1tph per Leeds and Newcastle, with the remaining 1tph running from Doncaster to somewhere more fun...
 

Padav

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@YorkshireBear: "The change in secretary of state has delayed announcement, they were half way through showing greening route and she got shifted and they had to start again. Now set for spring 2013."
Not my understanding of the current situation.

The draft plans for phase 2 were on the SoS for Transport's desk some months back - and they won't alter dramatically just because the person sitting at that desk has changed.

The principal reason behind the delay is more likely to be the Judicial Review (of phase 1 approved plans), launched by 51M Group and others (HS2AA and Aylesbury Golf Club?). This hearing is scheduled for December 3rd, to be heard by Justice Ouseley. All five objections will be heard concurrently but will be treated as separate challenges - the hearing will also incorporate the pigs ear made of consultation responses by HS2 Ltd.

My educated guess is, assuming the review ruling comes out before Christmas, that phase 2 plans are made public just as the House rises for the Xmas break - this is a common tactic to dampen media attention - journalists can't make up a story if there is no one to talk to?

As for the route itself, the Crewe link might well be reference to a spur from phase 2, to facilitate Classic Compatible based services to/from Liverpool.

I remain convinced that the main phase 2 western arm route will pass east of Stoke, somewhere under Brown Edge, head in a general north-westerly direction passing along the south west edge of Congleton before turning gradually to a direct northerly trajectory, incorporate a through running station within Manchester Airport environs, finally heading into the City Centre - this last section will be the most challenging from an engineering perspective!
 

swt_passenger

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Not my understanding of the current situation.

The draft plans for phase 2 were on the SoS for Transport's desk some months back - and they won't alter dramatically just because the person sitting at that desk has changed.

The consultation phase on HS2 phase 2, and the DfT announcement of the route, was announced at the beginning of this year as happening in 2014. There has never been any intention of publicly confirming the route in 2012, even though they'll haver a pretty goodd idea.

As discussed in a couple of previous threads on this subject, there's a world of difference between when leaks are expected, and the formal process, summarised on page 7 of this:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-governments-decisions/hs2-governments-decisions.pdf
 

LE Greys

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I'm yet to come up with a full timetable, but it very much depends on what route HS2 is going to take, and how much more line speed can be teased out of the ECML between York and Newcastle by ERTMS and ETCS fitments...

I can personally see 3tph between Newcastle and Edinburgh (1XC, 1ECML and 1HS2)

I'm rather concerned whether that is sustainable, for quite a few reasons. The end-to-end traffic would inevitably gravitate towards the faster train, the HS2 working, leaving the ECML working dependent on those passengers travelling anywhere that's not London. To retain end-to-end traffic, the fares would have to be at least 25% lower to retain appeal, and that means cutting costs, so we can expect to lose on-train catering and have high-density seating. The result would mean that the ECML is perceived as the secondary line, thus pushing more passengers to HS2.

I don't really see a through ECML service to Edinburgh lasting for more than five years before it gets cut back to Newcastle and a second HS2 service goes in its place. As you can guess from where I live, I'm not too keen on the idea of losing my link to Scotland.

For Tyneside I would (personally) be developing Newcastle Central with a parkway station at either Washington or Gateshead MetroCentre, with a classic line connection East of Newcastle Central. This of course would be when dedicated infrastructure comes to reach Tyneside, simple gauge improvements can be provided to get through the suburbs of Newcastle toward Edinburgh.

From what I remember of the line through Heaton, it used to be four-track and was cut back to three. Reinstating the fourth is probably technically feasible, but realignment of the current three to accommodate wider trains is another option. Height is the difficult factor, there are several low bridges. Add a Morpeth avoider and some other tweaks, and the times should come down somewhat. At the southern end, one option would be Tyne Yard, but that still forces all traffic over the King Edward Bridge. I also like the idea of using parts of the old Newcastle-Carlisle (which crossed the Tyne at Blaydon) but that would make it harder to reach from the south.

For Tyneside, I'd be looking at sending a Classic Compatible service that way, if we have 3tph CC services running initially, with 3tph to Newcastle and 3tph splitting off for elsewhere (Ex. Leeds) there is plenty of scope there for 1tph to Middlesbrough or Sunderland. The remaining 2tph running to other places in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire (Splitting off at Sheffield or York)

This all sounds sensible. 1tph might come off HS2 at Leeds and run York-Northallerton-Darlington-Durham-Newcastle Central, another might alternate between Middlesbrough and Sunderland, with a third covering Hull, Bradford, Harrogate or somewhere else. Doncaster would lose out badly, though, unless the Hull train came off at Sheffield and ran via Doncaster. However, I'd expect Hull to be covered by an hourly semi-fast from King's Cross.

Since I'm working here on HS2b E&W reaching "Leeds Delta Junction" and "Manchester West Parkway" with a connection retained at Rugley, possibly an additional HS connection to Crewe.

On the 'classic' ECML I would look at retaining 2 or 3tph core services, but these would call at more intermediate stations, all calling at Peterborough and Doncaster, extending from here to Leeds and Newcastle, possibly 1tph per Leeds and Newcastle, with the remaining 1tph running from Doncaster to somewhere more fun...

3tph, one express to Newcastle and two semi-fasts to Leeds and York/Hull sounds like a distinct possibility. That would 'suburbanise' the southern half of the line to some extent. In some ways, it's an improvement. Retford for instance would get 4X the current service, while the Thameslink routes might see an increased frequency.

Thing is, what would it really be like? Most likely, a South-Eastern 'Javelin' service with no on-board catering, no first class, high-density seating and almost no trace of the 'Route of the Flying Scotsman' that I used to know. Whether it remains any use to me, travelling from Hitchin to Scotland, depends on how the connections are handled. There are also political concerns. What happens to Newark if it becomes a London dormitory town? What happens to Peterborough if it loses its excellent links to the north? Will the York tourist trade be affected?

Of course, good management can avoid the route deteriorating. A best-case scenario is essentially minimal change for me and faster journeys for through passengers. I really want to see that, but I hope you see why I'm concerned.
 

YorkshireBear

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Not my understanding of the current situation.

The draft plans for phase 2 were on the SoS for Transport's desk some months back - and they won't alter dramatically just because the person sitting at that desk has changed.

Well that is what was said at NEREF in september by Andrew Coumbes. Feel free
to argue with him about it...
But seen as he is a top dog at HS2 ltd i believe him.
 

Nym

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3tph, one express to Newcastle and two semi-fasts to Leeds and York/Hull sounds like a distinct possibility. That would 'suburbanise' the southern half of the line to some extent. In some ways, it's an improvement. Retford for instance would get 4X the current service, while the Thameslink routes might see an increased frequency.

Of course, good management can avoid the route deteriorating. A best-case scenario is essentially minimal change for me and faster journeys for through passengers. I really want to see that, but I hope you see why I'm concerned.

I think I need to just clear up what I ment by some of the service timetables that I'm envisaging...

I'll just pop through a very quick draft.

This assumes:

Sheffield station at Nunnery Square with connections facing the Penistone Line via the current freight line, and by reversal, Doncaster via Rotherham and Lincoln. (Picking up the Sheffield - Doncaster line and Sheffield to Lincoln Line.)

Leeds City Station sitting on the West of a Delta Junction near Garforth with connection to the ECML and Selby to the East of Garforth, provision for faster route at a (much) later date if required.

OK:

CC: W8 Classic Compatable
GC: UIC-GC2 Captive Stock
GC + CC: One of each.

xx:03: Euston - Edinburgh (Fast) (Extensions to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow) & Middlesbrough CC+CC (Split at York)
xx:05: Euston - Leeds GC (Semi Fast)
xx:23: Euston - Newcastle (Peak extensions to Edinburgh and Glasgow) (Semi Fast: Stops N of York) & Hull Paragon / Harrogate via York (Alternate Hours) CC+CC (Split at Leeds Parkway)
xx:25: Euston - Leeds GC (Semi Fast)
xx:43: Euston - Newcastle (Semi Fast: Stops S of York) & Lincoln / Cleethorpes via Doncaster CC+CC (Split at Sheffield)
xx:45: Euston - Leeds GC & Bradford Foster Square CC

xx:00 Kings Cross - Newcastle (Possibly extended to Edinburgh) (Peterborough - Doncaster - York - Northallerton - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle)
xx:03 Kings Cross - Leeds (Stevenage(u) - Peterborough - Grantham - Retford - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds)
xx:30 (Open Access Path)
xx:33 Kings Cross - York (Stevenage (u) - Peterborough - Grantham - Retford - Doncaster - York)
 

LE Greys

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I think I need to just clear up what I ment by some of the service timetables that I'm envisaging...

I'll just pop through a very quick draft.

This assumes:

Sheffield station at Nunnery Square with connections facing the Penistone Line via the current freight line, and by reversal, Doncaster via Rotherham and Lincoln. (Picking up the Sheffield - Doncaster line and Sheffield to Lincoln Line.)

Leeds City Station sitting on the West of a Delta Junction near Garforth with connection to the ECML and Selby to the East of Garforth, provision for faster route at a (much) later date if required.

OK:

CC: W8 Classic Compatable
GC: UIC-GC2 Captive Stock
GC + CC: One of each.

xx:03: Euston - Edinburgh (Fast) (Extensions to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow) & Middlesbrough CC+CC (Split at York)
xx:05: Euston - Leeds GC (Semi Fast)
xx:23: Euston - Newcastle (Peak extensions to Edinburgh and Glasgow) (Semi Fast: Stops N of York) & Hull Paragon / Harrogate via York (Alternate Hours) CC+CC (Split at Leeds Parkway)
xx:25: Euston - Leeds GC (Semi Fast)
xx:43: Euston - Newcastle (Semi Fast: Stops S of York) & Lincoln / Cleethorpes via Doncaster CC+CC (Split at Sheffield)
xx:45: Euston - Leeds GC & Bradford Foster Square CC

xx:00 Kings Cross - Newcastle (Possibly extended to Edinburgh) (Peterborough - Doncaster - York - Northallerton - Darlington - Durham - Newcastle)
xx:03 Kings Cross - Leeds (Stevenage(u) - Peterborough - Grantham - Retford - Doncaster - Wakefield - Leeds)
xx:30 (Open Access Path)
xx:33 Kings Cross - York (Stevenage (u) - Peterborough - Grantham - Retford - Doncaster - York)

Aha, I thought you meant HS2 all the way to Newcastle. This sounds a lot easier to live with, although I'd still be concerned about what happens to Doncaster and Peterborough. The xx:10 and xx:40 paths would then be available for extra suburban trains, whether from Thameslink or King's Cross. There's also the possibility of an hourly Lincoln service.

Also, everyone ignores the (u) at Stevenage, to the point where it's a running joke.
 

aylesbury

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Its still coming to close to my house and I wont be able to use it without an hours journey into London!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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