sevenhills
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Doesnt eveyone that travels at 35+mph in a 30mph area, neglect their duty?
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Comparing offences (split from Merseyrail guard on trial thread)
- Thread starter sevenhills
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Doesnt eveyone that travels at 35+mph in a 30mph area, neglect their duty?
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merlodlliw
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You are talking about a Car Driver totally different, welcome to rail forums.
No, because they don't have a duty to drive at 30mph (or less). However, you've surely read about policemen driving over the speed limit who have caused deaths and been prosecuted, even though they were in performance of their duties. There you have a direct parallel.
Yes, and if you run over and kill a drunk you will be jailed for it if it can be proved you were speeding.
michael769
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Not true - speeding does not carry a prison sentence.
To be jailed they have to prove Dangerous Driving - which carries a much higher standard of proof.
I thought death by careless driving was an offence nowadays, so that if you're speeding and kill someone you will be prosecuted and probably jailed for that offence.
sevenhills
Member
If its a reasonable ammount over the speed limit, the jail term will be low, its only when you drive like a maniac that you will get anything like 5 years.
Apologies for continuing somewhat off topic, but as folk have tried to make comparisons with other offences where an involuntary death has occurred, I think it fair to correct one or two assumptions about the level of sentence received by Christopher McGee when in comparison with other offences.
Speeding and causing a death is unlikely to result in a charge of 'death by careless or inconsiderate driving'. It is more likely to carry the more serious charge of 'death by dangerous driving'. Speeding is a deliberate act rather than a careless or inconsiderate one.
Sentencing guidelines (see http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/death_by_dangerous_driving/) show that causing death where speeding is involved is likely to attract a sentence of between 2 and 5 years. Just one aggravating factor as well as speeding and the sentence range can be between 4 and 7 years. So you don't have to be a 'maniac' to get a 5 year sentence.
Speeding and causing a death is unlikely to result in a charge of 'death by careless or inconsiderate driving'. It is more likely to carry the more serious charge of 'death by dangerous driving'. Speeding is a deliberate act rather than a careless or inconsiderate one.
Sentencing guidelines (see http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/death_by_dangerous_driving/) show that causing death where speeding is involved is likely to attract a sentence of between 2 and 5 years. Just one aggravating factor as well as speeding and the sentence range can be between 4 and 7 years. So you don't have to be a 'maniac' to get a 5 year sentence.
Those commenting on the perceived harshness of the sentence received by Christopher McGee should also remember that he had pleaded 'not guilty'. His sentence would likely have been less had he plead 'guilty'.
An observation only on the length of sentence. Without seeing and hearing all the evidence in this case, or knowing the legal advice given to Mr McGee, I reserve comment on his plea.
An observation only on the length of sentence. Without seeing and hearing all the evidence in this case, or knowing the legal advice given to Mr McGee, I reserve comment on his plea.
michael769
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Causing Death by Careless Driving does not carry a jail sentence unless alcohol is involved.
michael769
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The law does not permit a court to issue a jail sentence where the charge is speeding alone. The court has no discretion. See Schedule II of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
I imagine the speed he was caught at would be classed as dangerous driving, but his newspaper article said simply speeding.
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A rather sweeping statement. Sentencing guidelines say otherwise, with the maximum sentence being 5 years imprisonment. The degree of carelessness is taken into account. As are any other aggravating factors. Besides which, excess alcohol would normally result in a charge of 'dangerous driving' not 'careless driving' if a death results.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_driving/
blacknight
Member
Teenage driver kills friend whilst making error of judgement on roads gets 6 months whilst a train guard gets 5 year sentence. Scales of justice seem a little unbalanced.
sevenhills
Member
Most people speed, I know this because if I drive at the speed limit there is often a queue behind me.
Many accidents will there for be made worse by speeding, so instead of just breaking someone bones, they might well be killed. But in many instances, it will not be possible to prove the speed of the vehicle, beyond doubt.
And I would say that if you speed or take drugs or alcohol, you deliberately increase the risks, where as Christopher McGee acted in good faith.
90019
Established Member
Are you taking into account your speedo overreading?
transmanche
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Like in this case where a PC drove as fast as 94mph without blue lights or sirens and killed a 16 year-old girl?
The difference being (as in that case) they tend to get charged with the lesser crime of 'causing death by dangerous driving', rather than the more serious offence of 'manslaughter'.
Sentence for the PC? Three years.
There's merit in this line of argument; I was surprised he was given 5 years given that far more serious offences receive lesser sentences. BUT, we must accept that the guard was negligent, as much as we must accept that the deceased was foolish and contributed to her own demise.
There's a chap from another forum who I don't often agree with - he posts as 'Pegasus', but he said that there are no winners in this horrible event. And he's bloody right, several lives ruined, including the guard, the guard's family, the mother of the deceased, maybe even the friends of the deceased who were the closest witnesses. They will always ask themselves 'what if', just as much as the guard, and maybe even the mother who I've criticised. This really is a horrible case, and I hope I never see anything similar again. Alas I know I will...........
The teenage driver was probably prosecuted under the ''causing death by dangerous driving'
The train guard was prosecuted with manslaughter which is a much more serious charge.
People need to understand the difference between the two and the fact that they can carry different sentencing guides.
And a lot of people are coming across in their posts like they think he should have been found not guilty. And thats not good.
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