Well Done Northern and a guard!

[Chapeltom]

Last night I was on a train from Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills Central, by chance I got on it actually. I'll not mention the service just in case!

Northern Rail (at least guards I've come across) have sold tickets on trains even from staffed stations as a lot of you will know and people regard them as pay-trains, waiting for the conductor rather than buy at first available opportunity. I saw an incident where they are trying to get rid of this 'culture'.

2 passengers got on at Manchester Picc. No revenue block on Platform 1, two returns to Bredbury they asked for, and he said £7.40. The passengers complained almost thinking it was a joke, saying that they wanted cheap evening returns. The guard said he couldn't physically sell them on his machine (is it true?). He simply explained they'd have been able to get to the said tickets had they bought at Manchester Picc, said passengers still weren't happy. They were quite adamant they wanted cheap evening returns and thought they were being ripped off and said they'd done it for ages. The guard risked getting a serious bit of abuse for doing his job (as I heard their conversation after he'd gone and it wasn't very pleasant!) And the passengers said they would complain. I'm sat behind thinking to myself, there is no point in that! As the guard said, he was fully versed in the railway byelaws and it is pay at the first opportunity (or you can't discounted tickets - which he didn't say, but to clarify!)

Well Done Northern for taking this stance on fare evasion. And the guard for taking the correct stance and putting the passengers right. Its unfortunate it doesn't matter how much Northern try to drill it into people, there are still people like this. I think there has to be tougher penalties or people like ones I've seen tonight will continue to do chance it where they can. Paying double may or may not make these people learn, maybe what I saw was harsh enough as cheap Evening Returns are of course half the fare.

As a fare paying passenger, keep it up Northern. Its just a blatant attempt to evade the fare and those two paid double by simply not buying at Picc! The next service was only half an hour later anyway, hardly inconvenience to buy a ticket!

 

[michael769]

And the passengers said they would complain.

Perhaps you might consider writing in to commend the guard on how he handled the situation? Such positive feedback can assist in providing an alternative and more balanced view to that submitted by someone with an axe to grind, if you see what I mean.

 

[Chapeltom]

Yeah, I'll consider that. Although he may have upset one or two passengers from Brinnington when we came into that particular station he said "The People's Republic of Brinnington is our next station" and as I burst out laughing (its a grim place) the bloke opposite jumped out his seat and wasn't too chuffed! It was quite funny and after a long day, a bit of humour doesn't go amiss. Some of the people getting on at most stations from Picc to New Mills Central do seem to lack intelligence of any kind. Others will tell you the same!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Looks like they were sold Off-Peak Day Returns (2 @ £3.80) each. Technically I don't think that is by the book either; only Anytime fares should be sold on-train. That would have been 2 x £6.10, i.e. £13.20 in total; might have led to a riot I suppose...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Looks like they were sold Off-Peak Day Returns (2 @ £3.80) each. Technically I don't think that is by the book either; only Anytime fares should be sold on-train. That would have been 2 x £6.10, i.e. £13.20 in total; might have led to a riot I suppose...

What my colleague has done has put him/herself at risk for the sake of a few pence. You can't pick and choose when to follow the rules. If my colleague standard fared everyone from an open booking office fair enough but I am willing to bet a months wage that they don,t. The last thing I want to see is a colleague getting battered just for the sake of a quid

 

[156441]

As a fellow northern guard I'll have to disagree with you there mate. Particularly as this guard made a full announcement at 7 mins and 3 mins prior to departure advising that cheap evening returns would not be sold on the train and giving ample opportunity to goto the TVM.

I was on this same train and heard the announcements clearly. The guard (that we both know) sold everyone off peak tickets as he felt selling SDS to make a point a little excessive. It's a shame all guards at Picc don't do the same and we'd not have this problem!

I'm sure this guard would welcome you sending feedback to Northern and I'll pass on your kind messages as I believe he is working today!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh the unable to sell cheap evenings is a lie but one that I use myself personally as most people fall for it and it saves the argument.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As a fellow northern guard I'll have to disagree with you there mate. Particularly as this guard made a full announcement at 7 mins and 3 mins prior to departure advising that cheap evening returns would not be sold on the train and giving ample opportunity to goto the TVM.

I was on this same train and heard the announcements clearly. The guard (that we both know) sold everyone off peak tickets as he felt selling SDS to make a point a little excessive. It's a shame all guards at Picc don't do the same and we'd not have this problem!

I'm sure this guard would welcome you sending feedback to Northern and I'll pass on your kind messages as I believe he is working today!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh the unable to sell cheap evenings is a lie but one that I use myself personally as most people fall for it and it saves the argument.

You newbies will soon learn why there are reasons for what we do and when it backfires then and only then you will learn, now if they put security on our trains then I would gladly do standard tickets until then my safety 1st and I would rather sell 10 tickets at 1.50 each then 2 at 3 quid and a trip to the hospital to prove a point

 

[Chapeltom]

Looks like they were sold Off-Peak Day Returns (2 @ £3.80) each. Technically I don't think that is by the book either; only Anytime fares should be sold on-train. That would have been 2 x £6.10, i.e. £13.20 in total; might have led to a riot I suppose...

They only went one way, so it was just a single but it doesn't matter, there is no cheap evening singles, so people are told to buy/just buy a Cheap Evening Return.


I was sat directly behind the passengers. Whether the guard put himself at risk, I won't pass judgement on that. He did say he'd made an announcement, and a poster above on the same train confirms that although I didn't board until a minute before departure as I'd come from Liverpool.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

They only went one way, so it was just a single but it doesn't matter, there is no cheap evening singles, so people are told to buy/just buy a Cheap Evening Return.


I was sat directly behind the passengers. Whether the guard put himself at risk, I won't pass judgement on that. He did say he'd made an announcement, and a poster above on the same train confirms that although I didn't board until 1913 ish.

I know and believe the poster wholeheartedly, he is a good person but to put yourself in a conflict situation over a few pence is risky to say the least this is the problem with g4 at picc. Either barrier it properly.. Or not at all

 

[northwichcat]

giving ample opportunity to goto the TVM.

Have Northern made Cheap Evening Returns available from their TVMs? They didn't use to issue them but Northern were apparently 'working on the problem' last year.

(I appreciate at Piccadilly there's Virgin TVMs and the ticket office that do sell them.)

 

[Chapeltom]

I know and believe the poster wholeheartedly, he is a good person but to put yourself in a conflict situation over a few pence is risky to say the least this is the problem with g4 at picc. Either barrier it properly.. Or not at all

Particularly with it still busy at Picc until 7:30, maybe 8. More or less all seats were taken. Interestingly there was no check on the bridge either, so someone could have come off Platform 13/14 and walked straight out via Platform 1! May as well not even bother with the check at Platform 10 doors.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Evening cheap returns aren't available after 9pm anyway, (although i didnt know that until a few days ago ) so technically he is right when he says he can't do it.

The thing is not everyone sings off the same hymn sheet, and some staff will sell anything. This makes our job harder when there is no consistency in following the rules. By all means tact and discretion should be used when appropriate - although I can't stand passengers who tell me to use my discretion to let them off when they are on the wrong train - but the simple rule "buy before you board otherwise we will charge you more to cover the conductors commission" should be adhered to quite easily

 

[northwichcat]

Evening cheap returns aren't available after 9pm anyway, (although i didnt know that until a few days ago ) so technically he is right when he says he can't do it.

As far as I can see the time of the service has not been given.

 

[Chapeltom]

I have to agree there needs to be consistency or you will have people arguing, there needs to be clear policy and Northern really need to address it. You can see why passengers get confused when different guards do different things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I can see the time of the service has not been given.

It was between 1830 and 2100.

 

[156441]

Jcollins. Only certain northern TVMs had this problem and its been rectified as far as I know. You can certainly get them from Picc as I have shown someone how to in the past.

With regards to no barrier on certain platforms at Picc this is why I always check tickets from Piccadilly as people have already alluded to why should those that pay day in day out pay for others.

As gimme a 50 says there is a time and place for discretion. A fully manned main terminus is not that place.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I have to agree there needs to be consistency or you will have people arguing, there needs to be clear policy and Northern really need to address it. You can see why passengers get confused when different guards do different things.

I do what the vast (and I mean vast) guards at my depot do. Sell a ticket like I would at a ticket office. What makes things harder for us 140 plus guards is when newbies start (or the commission chasersay they pick and choose what part of the NrCoC to follow and that doesn't work when 95 percent of your stations don't have an open booking office.

 

[northwichcat]

One problem is understaffed ticket offices.

If there's obviously too many passengers to have been sold tickets by the one member of staff in the ticket office how does the conductor know which passengers queued for 10 minutes and then gave up because the train arrival was imminent and which turned up 2 minutes before and went straight to the platform?

The other is buy before you board in the Northern area only penalises off-peak return passengers or railcard users. If you want a normal anytime single or return then you can't be charged more for buying on board but the off-peak return passengers can be. (Generally there are no off-peak singles on Northern routes with a few exceptions.)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

4 years at xc and 7 at TPE doesn't make me a newbie!

Granted where there's no ticket office, fair enough. And I have been known to "encourage" people to pick a different station to give them a better deal. But with picc manned 24 hours and barriered there is NO excuse to not have a ticket. Yes I know the barriers have holes and is only partially effective. It's one of the reasons why at 10 or 11pm at night I check 1st class before we leave picc to the usual cries "but no one bothered yesterday!" and check tickets at the front because the chancers think I won't get thru before Stalybridge! They don't get ecd's, sds only.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

4 years at xc and 7 at TPE doesn't make me a newbie!

Granted where there's no ticket office, fair enough. And I have been known to "encourage" people to pick a different station to give them a better deal. But with picc manned 24 hours and barriered there is NO excuse to not have a ticket. Yes I know the barriers have holes and is only partially effective. It's one of the reasons why at 10 or 11pm at night I check 1st class before we leave picc to the usual cries "but no one bothered yesterday!" and check tickets at the front because the chancers think I won't get thru before Stalybridge! They don't get ecd's, sds only.

Difference is TPE have a standard fare policy, northern don,t. Big difference

 

[156441]

But Northern do have a sell full price tickets to passengers from maned stations policy but we don't.
In fact as gimme a 50 and posters on this and other threads mention most don't even see a guard particularly in the evening and I find that hard to deal with as a member of staff and as a former fare paying passenger.

and before anyone starts on with the newbie stuff as you well know I did several years in a much more violent and antisocial job before this and have never had anything escalate above a bit of verbal.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Well they see me in the evening but to put this argument to bed, if you want to enforce the NrCoC do it properly. Now can you honestly give me the open and close times of every route on your card? So when you are working your train you can guarantee that the booking office is open when you sell them a sds, you can't sell a cds from somewhere like MPL or BDY if the booking office is open what's the betting like everyone else you do though, you can't decide when and when not to be totally strict you have to be one or the other. The same people get assaulted time after time being to strict. Don't be a statistic 156

 

[156441]

Which is why from all other stations I don't enforce it as rigorously as your quite right you never know when these places are open and closed.

Sometimes I will stamp my feet at other stations (Stockport being a prime example) but only if the said passenger fails what I like to call 'the attitude test'
I treat every single passenger from babies to seniors with respect and dignity if that's not paid back in some form you fail and as such will not be getting any favours off me.

It's within my powers to use my discretion as a guard but I won't put up with it from a fully manned terminus.

 

[martinsh]

As far as I can see the time of the service has not been given.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a fellow northern guard I'll have to disagree with you there mate. Particularly as this guard made a full announcement at 7 mins and 3 mins prior to departure advising that cheap evening returns would not be sold on the train and giving ample opportunity to goto the TVM.

I was on this same train and heard the announcements clearly.

How can you know you were on the same train when the time wasn't given ?!?!

 

[156441]

Because I was in the same carriage as the OP and heard the conversation.

That guard isn't particularly quiet!

 

[Zoidberg]

What my colleague has done has put him/herself at risk for the sake of a few pence. You can't pick and choose when to follow the rules. If my colleague standard fared everyone from an open booking office fair enough but I am willing to bet a months wage that they don,t. The last thing I want to see is a colleague getting battered just for the sake of a quid

A case in point http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...t-wellington-station-in-row-over-rail-ticket/

Extract:

A conductor and passenger were attacked on board a train at Wellington station after a brawl broke out when another passenger refused to buy a ticket.

 

[Darandio]

A case in point http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...t-wellington-station-in-row-over-rail-ticket/

Extract:

Which can happen at any time, not only whether the fare is higher than what they expect to pay (as in this case), but in some cases this will happen because some people just don't want to buy a ticket full stop.

Quoting such a story just brings us around full circle again where the way to avoid that situation would be for the guard not to check tickets.

It cannot really be avoided.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

A case in point http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...t-wellington-station-in-row-over-rail-ticket/

Extract:

it happens on a regular basis, its great to get the fare dodgers (I really do mean that) but in my humble opinion to put yourself at risk to prove a point just isn't worth it, 156 is a top lad who I know pretty well, last thing I want is to hear he has been assaulted for the sake of a quid (which he knows). Its all about using judgement, now some people can do everything by the book, never waver etc etc etc sadly those people tend to be the ones assaulted by some of the lowlifes that we have on our trains, Personally yes passengers should ALL have a ticket at a main terminus like Picc, however until they put up either permanent barriers, train staff on the barriers who know what they are doing or put decent security on our trains I will take the safer action, that is my decision and the same course of action is followed by approx 95% of the guards at Picc and probably most of Northern, Safety comes first..Always!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which can happen at any time, not only whether the fare is higher than what they expect to pay (as in this case), but in some cases this will happen because some people just don't want to buy a ticket full stop.

Quoting such a story just brings us around full circle again where the way to avoid that situation would be for the guard not to check tickets.

It cannot really be avoided.

Unless you know you can get police backup we are told by our CTM's one simple piece of advice

Walk Away

and thats pretty damn good advice

 

[Zoidberg]

Which can happen at any time, not only whether the fare is higher than what they expect to pay (as in this case), but in some cases this will happen because some people just don't want to buy a ticket full stop.

Quoting such a story just brings us around full circle again where the way to avoid that situation would be for the guard not to check tickets.

It cannot really be avoided.

Fare point, the linked incident isn't directly related to the situation under discussion. Sorry, folks, for any distraction caused.

 

[455driver]

We had a guard at our place that always checked all tickets and everyone else bought one, he never had any trouble with the "not buying" brigade.

But then he is 6ft 2in and built like a brick out-house!

 

[FLHH East Anglia]

Looks like they were sold Off-Peak Day Returns (2 @ £3.80) each. Technically I don't think that is by the book either; only Anytime fares should be sold on-train. That would have been 2 x £6.10, i.e. £13.20 in total; might have led to a riot I suppose...

You'll go far in making loads of money
2X£6.10 = £13.20?