Use of emergency door release at stations

[work-traveller]

Basic question is can one be fined, prosecuted etc for opening a carriage door when the train is stationary at a platform?

Scenario - you're on a Cross Country voyager that's arrived at Birmingham New Street. You're keen to make a connection, so have to be sharpish off the train. The train stops and the doors stay locked for approximately 1 minute. Lots of passengers on the train and platform start looking distinctly miffed. Then you hear a PA announcement from the platform to the effect that the doors will be opened shortly once a police incident has been dealt with. For information I'd spotted police waiting on the platform at what would have been the other end of the train by the time it stopped. So, after about 2 minutes, would I have been liable for fine, prosecution etc for pulling the emergency door release handle and getting off the train?
Ultimately I waited, the doors were opened after about 3 minutes, I did a Usain Bolt to my connecting train and missed it by seconds.

 

[Simon11]

Basic question is can one be fined, prosecuted etc for opening a carriage door when the train is stationary at a platform?

Scenario - you're on a Cross Country voyager that's arrived at Birmingham New Street. You're keen to make a connection, so have to be sharpish off the train. The train stops and the doors stay locked for approximately 1 minute. Lots of passengers on the train and platform start looking distinctly miffed. Then you hear a PA announcement from the platform to the effect that the doors will be opened shortly once a police incident has been dealt with. For information I'd spotted police waiting on the platform at what would have been the other end of the train by the time it stopped. So, after about 2 minutes, would I have been liable for fine, prosecution etc for pulling the emergency door release handle and getting off the train?
Ultimately I waited, the doors were opened after about 3 minutes, I did a Usain Bolt to my connecting train and missed it by seconds.

They wouldn't have the doors closed just for fun, there would be a reasonable explanation like the police were waiting to speak with the TM to arrest a passenger onboard without giving him a chance to escape.

I wouldn't know if you would be fined, but you would cause further issues for the TM which could delay the train further.

Finally the emergency door releases are there in case of an emergency, not because you will miss your train!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Basic question is can one be fined, prosecuted etc for opening a carriage door when the train is stationary at a platform?

In this case I imagine you most likely be arrested by the Police who were dealing with the incident. After that, I'll let someone who knows answer.

 

[michael769]

It is an bylaw offence to activate an emergency release without a valid reason. The clue to what are a valid reasons is in the name emergency, missing your connection is not an emergency no matter how great your ego and sense of self importance!

In most trains the emergency release is behind a break glass portal, so as well as a fine for the improper use, you risk being charged with criminal damage. If you (or any person who followed you) got in the way of the police, spoiled evidence or your actions allowed a suspect to escape you could add a charge of obstructing a police officer to the summons too!

Finally as your actions would seriously annoy the police there is a good chance that you would be arrested until they got round to taking your details verifying your identity and charging you - so expect a couple of hours in custody. And to top it all off you would probably get the bill for replacing the break glass panel.

 

[work-traveller]

Well that all seems fairly conclusive, so thanks for the informative responses. The thought of pulling the level (not behind any glass) crossed my mind, but then curve-ball thoughts might occasionally pass through your mind - thoughts that you're not actually going to carry out. So it was really just a hypothetical question.

No idea what the incident was 5 carriages down - fare dodging or abusive behaviour most likely.

 

[NSEFAN]

If you had an advance ticket, presumably you would be authorised to catch the next available train in this case?

 

[Urban Gateline]

If you had an advance ticket, presumably you would be authorised to catch the next available train in this case?

Definitely, the TOC's control would be aware of what is happening so could verify the delay to the Guard on the connection if they wanted to check it.

On another note, I was pleasantly surprised on my trip to Berney Arms (BYA) recently, with only a 5/6min connection in Norwich, our train ran late into Norwich but the connecting service was held for us, we'd never have made it to Berney Arms and back otherwise, this train only then left 2 minutes late.

 

[lemonic]

On another note, I was pleasantly surprised on my trip to Berney Arms (BYA) recently, with only a 5/6min connection in Norwich, our train ran late into Norwich but the connecting service was held for us, we'd never have made it to Berney Arms and back otherwise, this train only then left 2 minutes late.

Thankfully, Greater Anglia (and NXEA before them) do seem to hold connecting trains on local branch lines where possible when the train from London is running late. Never happens in the other direction though.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Thankfully, Greater Anglia (and NXEA before them) do seem to hold connecting trains on local branch lines where possible when the train from London is running late. Never happens in the other direction though.

It is a shame that with the high cost of delay minutes connections aren't held more often. I could understand about the london bound services as that may have a worse knock-on effect and they run quite frequently out of Norwich so there's little reason to hold one. In my case it was lucky though as there are so few trains to Berney Arms, it would have completely ruined the day if the connecting service just left without us!

 

[Dave1987]

Yes everyone is correct. Use of the emergency egress handle in a non emergency situation is a big no no. For a start it creates hassle for the train crew having to reset it and then test the doors. Secondly as you were only going to miss your connection you would def be committing an offence and are liable to a fine. Don't think you could be arrested for it though. I've had passengers pull egress handles before and it has delayed the train as it can take 5 mins to reset it and test the doors properly afterward. Please please DO NOT use the egress handle unless it is an emergency!

 

[swj99]

police incident

It is an bylaw offence to activate an emergency release without a valid reason. The clue to what are a valid reasons is in the name emergency, missing your connection is not an emergency no matter how great your ego and sense of self importance!

Clearly it's some sort of emergency, otherwise the police wouldn't be there. If it wasn't an emergency, they'd just send someone round in due course to take a statement.

I'm amazed at the amount of times on the internet I see references to ego and self importance, and I'm interested to know how a person's ego or self importance is relevant in such circumstances.

 

[michael769]

I fail to see how the presence of the police on an unrelated matter makes missing your connection an emergency?

 

[swj99]

I fail to see how the presence of the police on an unrelated matter makes missing your connection an emergency?

If the matter was unrelated, then passengers opening the doors and leaving the train wouldn't be a problem. If it wasn't an emergency, the police would be unlikely to be there, especially these days when they are so under resourced.

 

[Panda]

If the matter was unrelated, then passengers opening the doors and leaving the train wouldn't be a problem. If it wasn't an emergency, the police would be unlikely to be there, especially these days when they are so under resourced.

That doesn't make sense at all. The 'potential emergency' (missing a connection) would be completely unrelated to police presence and keeping the doors closed.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I got the rules changed over this and latter day TOC's and train crew should take heed. If a handle (or alarm or whatever) has been pulled or operated when the train arrives at a station you should NEVER keep the doors closed. If a crime has been committed and by opening the doors you let a criminal escape they can always be caught afterwards - if the handle has been pulled because of a fire you are trapping people.

 

[455driver]

Oh come on you really are scraping the barrel with your scare mongering! :roll:
If there is a genuine emergencty then pull the egress (that is what it is for) but a missed connection is never going to be classed as an emergency no ,atter how important you think you are*!

Only yesterday I was on a train where a passenger was robbed and the guard made an announcement that due to "door tests" there would be a delay opening the doors at the next station (while we waited for BTP to turn up), once BTP were on the platform (literally 2 minutes after the train arrived) the doors were released and the person detained.

*please note this is not aimed at the OP>

 

[work-traveller]

missing your connection is not an emergency no matter how great your ego and sense of self importance!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but in no way did I imply (nor think) that missing my connection was an emergency. In the event I missed my connection, waited for the next option and got on with my life - as you'd expect anyone to do. I'm afraid you'll have to direct your invective at someone more deserving - I suggest a mirror!

 

[swj99]

That doesn't make sense at all. The 'potential emergency' (missing a connection) would be completely unrelated to police presence and keeping the doors closed.

Other than yourself, I don't think anyone is suggesting that missing a connection is a potential emergency. I said in my previous post that I didn't think the police would present unless there was some sort of emergency.

I got the rules changed over this and latter day TOC's and train crew should take heed. If a handle (or alarm or whatever) has been pulled or operated when the train arrives at a station you should NEVER keep the doors closed. If a crime has been committed and by opening the doors you let a criminal escape they can always be caught afterwards - if the handle has been pulled because of a fire you are trapping people.

Exactly. The police, under limited circumstances have the authority to detain people who are not under arrest, but employees of train operating companies do not. An authorised person does however have powers to remove a person from the railway if that person is reasonably believed to be in breach of any of the Byelaws, but there does not appear to be any power of detention.

 

[NSEFAN]

Other than yourself, I don't think anyone is suggesting that missing a connection is a potential emergency. I said in my previous post that I didn't think the police would present unless there was some sort of emergency.

Does waiting for the police to arrest another passenger count as an emergency? I would have thought the emergency release is only sensible to use when there is immediate danger to people in that carriage (e.g. from a fire)

 

[dcsprior]

I would have thought the emergency release is only sensible to use when there is immediate danger to people in that carriage (e.g. from a fire)

Firstly, I would not have used the emergency release in this situation. There was another thread on here for a similar situation but where no announcement was made - I probably would've used the emergency release if that happened (as without any announcement, I'd assume there was some kind of emergency)

However, I'd be hesitant in criticising anyone who did use it - after all they were being detained against their will, which clearly counts as an "emergency" in my book.

 

[A-driver]

Firstly, I would not have used the emergency release in this situation. There was another thread on here for a similar situation but where no announcement was made - I probably would've used the emergency release if that happened (as without any announcement, I'd assume there was some kind of emergency)

However, I'd be hesitant in criticising anyone who did use it - after all they were being detained against their will, which clearly counts as an "emergency" in my book.

Don't be silly- they arnt being held against their will, the police asked for the doors to be kept shut until they were in position which they have the authority to do.

An emergency is a situation where smoke or flames are filling the coach, or where the coach is lying on its side following a crash, not when the doors havnt opened in a station.

In these situations they often won't announce that the doors are being kept shut at the police request as otherwise the suspects are likely to pull the egress to run away.

I have been requested to hold the doors by police once but waited outside the affirm until they were in position but I suppose this isn't possible at Birmingham.

 

[dcsprior]

Don't be silly- they arnt being held against their will, the police asked for the doors to be kept shut until they were in position which they have the authority to do.

It may be that they're being justifiably held against their will, but they're still being held against their will

I'm not convinced the police wouldn't be on dodgy legal ground - keeping everyone locked on the train because one person has committed an offence, sounds a bit like Collective Punishment

An emergency is a situation where smoke or flames are filling the coach, or where the coach is lying on its side following a crash, not when the doors havnt opened in a station.

I would set the bar for "emergency" a lot lower than that. Out of interest, what's the wording on the emergency release? Does it say "emergency where there's an immediate danger to life" which is unambiguous or just "emergency" which I would take to include a lot more.

 

[Dave1987]

It may be that they're being justifiably held against their will, but they're still being held against their will

I'm not convinced the police wouldn't be on dodgy legal ground - keeping everyone locked on the train because one person has committed an offence, sounds a bit like Collective Punishment



I would set the bar for "emergency" a lot lower than that. Out of interest, what's the wording on the emergency release? Does it say "emergency where there's an immediate danger to life" which is unambiguous or just "emergency" which I would take to include a lot more.

This is why we get so many incidents on the railway. Being held on a train is not being held against your will you have chosen to travel on the train, you have agreed to obey the railway byelaws. The railway byelaws stipulate you will not use the emergency egress handle unless it is an emergency! An emergency is when there is a threat to life and limb, not you being inconvenienced.

 

[GadgetMan]

It may be that they're being justifiably held against their will, but they're still being held against their will

I'm not convinced the police wouldn't be on dodgy legal ground - keeping everyone locked on the train because one person has committed an offence, sounds a bit like Collective Punishment



I would set the bar for "emergency" a lot lower than that. Out of interest, what's the wording on the emergency release? Does it say "emergency where there's an immediate danger to life" which is unambiguous or just "emergency" which I would take to include a lot more.

What next? We should stop in the middle of no where and let a passenger out onto a track/level crossing when they ask to be released from captivity on a train in motion? Or is it OK to detain them against their will under certain circumstances?

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to draft a list of situations where we should/shouldn't be allowed to lock people onto a train.

 

[W230]

I'm not convinced the police wouldn't be on dodgy legal ground - keeping everyone locked on the train because one person has committed an offence, sounds a bit like Collective Punishment

Are you for real?

Are you suggesting the police, the TOC (or whoever) are guilty of false imprisonment???

You miss your stop and want to get off but the trains started off for the next stop - are you going to say that's false imprisonment too?!

The reason BTP will have asked the doors to stay locked is so that they can get to the right place pending the train's arrival. If an offence has been committed on board and you're at Birmingham New Street, then it makes total sense to keep the doors locked until the officers are in the right place to detain the suspect! If the doors are all opened and several hundred passengers get off it's going to be pretty hard to identify the suspect amongst that! But no - you consider being asked to wait on the train for two minutes as collective punishment! How would you feel if you had (for example) been robbed and the offender was still on the train but the doors were opened before police could arrive and the offender ran off?

Bit of common sense, please!

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe dcprior has a valid point.

If there's a theft from a shop in a shopping centre, do the police lock all the exits to the whole centre until the suspect is detained? I doubt it. If you're not under arrest, then you're free to go surely

 

[NSEFAN]

I believe dcprior has a valid point.

If there's a theft from a shop in a shopping centre, do the police lock all the exits to the whole centre until the suspect is detained? I doubt it. If you're not under arrest, then you're free to go surely

Is that a fair comparison? Shopping centres are generally quite open places compared to a train.

 

[michael769]

If there's a theft from a shop in a shopping centre, do the police lock all the exits to the whole centre until the suspect is detained? I doubt it. If you're not under arrest, then you're free to go surely

It is not unusual for the occupants of a public place to be held during a police investigation. It is of course rare in cases of petty theft as the costs involved in interviewing several hundred people is out of all proportion to what was stolen, but if, for example a very valuable item was taken from a jewelers the police would seal off the exits until bystanders could be interviewed, and anyone trying to leave would find themselves arrested on a charge of obstruction. This is a rountine aspect of any major criminal investigation, and I personally know people were locked in a club for several hours following a serious assault.

The simple matter is that until informed the passengers have no idea what or how serious the incident is, and so tying to leave when required not to place themselves at unknown risk of geting themseleves in trouble. For a minor matter such are fare dodging the police will want to release bystanders quickly, but fare dodging is not the only crime that can happen on a train.....

Being held on a train where there is a valid reason is not false imprisonment. The railway is a private place to which we are invited and as such we are required to comply with all conditions that apply to that invitation, which includes complying with staff instructions, with regard to where we can and cannot go at any given time.

 

[W230]

If there's a theft from a shop in a shopping centre, do the police lock all the exits to the whole centre until the suspect is detained? I doubt it. If you're not under arrest, then you're free to go surely

Neither would you lock people on the train for half an hour if you were wanting to speak to someone about fare evasion! It's about being proportinate. Another example: a stabbing in a nightclub. Police won't let anyone leave initially on their arrival. If it was a stolen purse in a nightclub, then they wouldn't do that!

Once again it's about it being proportinate and using a bit of common sense!

Edit: Michael769 could not have put it better!

 

[A-driver]

As many have already said-it's hardly held against their will for long-may be a min or 2 before the police are ready. What if they choose to hold you at the signal outside the station for 5-6 mins instead? Or what about often when you are held outside a busy station in the rush hour waiting for a platform? That's not false imprisoment either.

And actually the police have the power to do this do no dodgy legal ground at all. The same as they can close off roads, buildings, footpaths etc.

And yes, egress handles have a sign on them along the lines of only to be used in exceptional circumstances. Either way, missing a connection, a flight, being late for work etc is never an emergency.