HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[HSTEd]

But hang on a minute, HS2 is no use to any of the towns and cities on the ECML with the exception of Leeds and possibly Wakefield. Why should the likes of Doncaster and Peterborough have a reduced level of service when they won't benefit from HS2?

Why should they recieve nine Mark 4s that they can't hope to fill?

Doncaster, Retford, Newark, Grantham and Peterborough cannot hope to fill the existing stock once the Leeds flows are abstracted.

If they want to preserve frequency they have to accept reduced train lengths.

Conversion to full EMU operation should allow the trains to maintain journey times close to the current ones while having extra stops inserted.
(Probably convert the non stop trains into paths for a second hourly Newark stopper as well).

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why should they recieve nine Mark 4s that they can't hope to fill?

Doncaster, Retford, Newark, Grantham and Peterborough cannot hope to fill the existing stock once the Leeds flows are abstracted.

If they want to preserve frequency they have to accept reduced train lengths.

Conversion to full EMU operation should allow the trains to maintain journey times close to the current ones while having extra stops inserted.
(Probably convert the non stop trains into paths for a second hourly Newark stopper as well).

But what about York, Newcastle and of course Edinburgh (I accept that I forgot to mention these). Trains heading from Kings Cross up the ECML are busy enough during the day to justify nine coach trains. If you are going to comment on something you should at least know the market.

 

[HSTEd]

But what about York, Newcastle and of course Edinburgh (I accept that I forgot to mention these). Trains heading from Kings Cross up the ECML are busy enough during the day to justify nine coach trains. If you are going to comment on something you should at least know the market.

York will be ten miles from the end of the High Speed line, it is safe to assume that those two trains per hour that seem to be reserved for services to Newcastle and the train per hour for York in the High Speed 2 documentation released a while back will be able to remove most of the demand.

Running that close to York at high speed will almost certainly give you a journey time superior to the ECML.

It is unlikely that the rump ECML trians will extend much beyond York.

 

[Martin222002]

But what about York, Newcastle and of course Edinburgh (I accept that I forgot to mention these). Trains heading from Kings Cross up the ECML are busy enough during the day to justify nine coach trains. If you are going to comment on something you should at least know the market.

I think you need to have a look at this document, particularly figure 3. It shows that Newcastle, Darlington and York will be served by HS2 to London on the ECML, and Birmingham, and that Stafford, Crewe, Liverpool, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Glasgow and Edinburgh as well as others, will be served by HS2 on/from the WCML.

However I disagree with HSTEd comments that the ECML will only require shorter trains, as there will still be a significant market for London on the southern half of the ECML, and with increased frequencies there will be more demand form the southern ECML to Yorkshire, the north east and Scotland.

 

[steamdrivenand]

However I disagree with HSTEd comments that the ECML will only require shorter trains, as there will still be a significant market for London on the southern half of the ECML, and with increased frequencies there will be more demand form the southern ECML to Yorkshire, the north east and Scotland.

I can't agree Martin, even if the market at those stations grows I don't see them being able to justify nine coach trains. I believe that when HS2 goes live the whole way of operating the MLs will alter and there'll be a lot more trains for most stations but they just won't be so long. Overall passenger capacity will probably be the same, maybe higher, but there won't be the big flows from the major cities that will have been siphoned off to HS2. Hopefully delays will be less of a problem too because most of the trains will be travelling at similar speeds, reducing the potential for queuing through throats etc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I've said before, they should be numbered in BR fashion.

HS65 from London to Manchester and Birmingham. HS26 for the Leeds/ Newcastle route.

(why did BR timetables work anti clockwise from the north bank of the Thames when the road network generally goes clockwise?)

I learnt the BR timetables in the early 60s, when Euston-Crewe was Table 50 and Crewe-Carlisle Table 51 (with loads of local connections shown in each).
This was the LMR, and probably came from the LMS timetable.
All the Regions had timetable books numbered in the same way, all with their own "Table 50s" - there were 5 separate books, 6 when the NER existed.
It all changed when BR developed an all-line timetable.
I think they took the lines from the old books in the order ER/LMR/WR/SR/ScR.
Table 65 still seems wrong to me...
And the Midland route Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Leeds was always a mis-fit in every scheme, which is why it's stuck at Table 51 today.

 

[tbtc]

Whilst I would agree that HS2 will be certainly be popular in the peak from the West Midlands conurbation and perhaps Greater Manchester, I've seen nothing to suggest that services from Leeds will be anything like as busy. Now as my original post concerned the East Midlands, there is nothing to suggest to that there not be enough capacity to support direct HS2 trains from Nottingham and Derby

So you don't think that there's sufficient passenger volumes to justify HS2 services from London to Leeds during the daytime, yet you think that there should be direct services into the centre of Derby? Just coincidence that this is your home town?

East Midlands Parkway is a White Elephant and is not likely to improve and Loughborough is unlikely grow

At the moment EMT don't have the spare resources to run more services on the MML/ stop more trains at East Midlands Parkway (due to the fact that so many 222s are only four or five coaches long).

With electrification and some longer stock, there should be scope to provide a "turn up and go" frequency from the Parkway station to Nottingham/ Derby/ Leicester and London which will attract motorists unwilling to drive into the respective city centres.

Outside of London and other metropolitan areas, the biggest barrier to public transport is the lack of integration. Insisting that high speed trains exclusively use Toton is only going to make the situation worse

Other than an extended tram and a station for local trains from Nottinghamshire/ Derbyshire I suppose Toton won't be integrated?

I learnt the BR timetables in the early 60s, when Euston-Crewe was Table 50 and Crewe-Carlisle Table 51 (with loads of local connections shown in each).
This was the LMR, and probably came from the LMS timetable.
All the Regions had timetable books numbered in the same way, all with their own "Table 50s" - there were 5 separate books, 6 when the NER existed.
It all changed when BR developed an all-line timetable.
I think they took the lines from the old books in the order ER/LMR/WR/SR/ScR.
Table 65 still seems wrong to me...
And the Midland route Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Leeds was always a mis-fit in every scheme, which is why it's stuck at Table 51 today.

Interesting, cheers

 

[Mutant Lemming]

EU competition rules ?

... by which time they will hopefully be irrelevant

 

[RichmondCommu]

So you don't think that there's sufficient passenger volumes to justify HS2 services from London to Leeds during the daytime, yet you think that there should be direct services into the centre of Derby? Just coincidence that this is your home town?

Of course you have conveniently failed to mention that I have suggested that Nottingham should also have direct HS2 services to London. Indeed, given its size Nottingham might have a stronger case. Selective memory anyone? Even with the projected HS2 timetable Nottingham and Derby are significantly closer to London, not to mention the cost of season tickets. It's also worth mentioning that rail has a very large share of the market for customers travelling into central London, especially in the peak. It’s hard to see how they can build on this.

At the moment EMT don't have the spare resources to run more services on the MML/ stop more trains at East Midlands Parkway (due to the fact that so many 222s are only four or five coaches long).

With electrification and some longer stock, there should be scope to provide a "turn up and go" frequency from the Parkway station to Nottingham/ Derby/ Leicester and London which will attract motorists unwilling to drive into the respective city centres.

In actual fact, the current service from East Midlands Parkway (especially in the peak) is already very good. I often spend a night in South Derbyshire during the week and travel back to London on a Thursday morning. The car park is barely half full. No matter how frequent the service, there simply doesn't seem to be any scope for growth.

People heading into Derby will always find that it's much easier to the use the A50. It's also worth mentioning that the A453 is being widened which is a major boast for people travelling into Nottingham.

Other than an extended tram and a station for local trains from Nottinghamshire/ Derbyshire I suppose Toton won't be integrated?

I'm interested to know why you haven't mentioned buses? When considering integrated public transport buses tend to be one of the priorities and yet you have chosen to ignore them. Perhaps that has something to do with the heavily congested local roads? Yes the tram will help but only for those living close by to a tram stop.

As for local trains, yes these will help but they are not much use if you have baggage. Now of course not everyone travelling to London has a suitcase / large backpack but many do and a local EMU / DMU is next to useless. In which case it's much easier to drag a suitcase on wheels from the station car park to a direct train to London.

It's also worth mentioning customers who rely on a lift / cab to get them from home to the station for an early morning train to London. The extra journey to Toton will not go down well with a wife, not to mention the extra cab fare.

 

[johnb]

RichmondConnu: Given that the vast majority of people don't live in the city centre, I really don't think the extra distance to Toton will make much odds. An extra 10 minutes of the wife's time or an extra few quid in the cab is pretty trivial compared to the journey being considered (and for people in suburbs/commuter villages to the west and southwest of Nottingham / to the east of Derby, it won't add any time at all).

 

[Haydn1971]

RichmondConnu: Given that the vast majority of people don't live in the city centre, I really don't think the extra distance to Toton will make much odds. An extra 10 minutes of the wife's time or an extra few quid in the cab is pretty trivial compared to the journey being considered (and for people in suburbs/commuter villages to the west and southwest of Nottingham / to the east of Derby, it won't add any time at all).

Whilst I share that view for my starting (home) end where I have my car, I'd prefer my office end to be a walk from the station - so both parkway and MCIHT centre stations have their benefits, at one end of the trip, someone will be disadvantaged - best solution, provision of both city centre and parkway stations for Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby and Leicester - so that alternate services in the hour provide a full spread of route options for travellers - and yes, I realise that will cost a few billion more, but we need to get it correct from the start, rather than bodging extra stations later.

 

[JohnB57]

Whilst I share that view for my starting (home) end where I have my car, I'd prefer my office end to be a walk from the station - so both parkway and MCIHT centre stations have their benefits, at one end of the trip, someone will be disadvantaged - best solution, provision of both city centre and parkway stations for Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby and Leicester - so that alternate services in the hour provide a full spread of route options for travellers - and yes, I realise that will cost a few billion more, but we need to get it correct from the start, rather than bodging extra stations later.

Haydn. I've asked this question before, not got any meaningful answer and given up. But maybe you can help me.

You see, my observation, certainly in respect of four of the five locations you mention that I have experience of, is that a miniscule percentage of inward travelers will in fact terminate their journeys in the city centre. Your own recommendation would be HS spurs from Meadowhall to Sheffield city centre and from Toton to Nottingham and Derby. Leicester seems to me to be a spur too far - literally.

Here's my question. In your experience as a regular traveler, how many people, hourly and daily, would honestly benefit from this? In other words, how many passengers would really step off the service at Sheffield, Derby, Notts and Leicester and walk to their destination? You're talking about one direct service per hour - that's a huge amount of people every day and a massive cost to eliminate the need, in Sheffield's case, for a ten or fifteen minute, three and a half mile shuttle. For how many potential users?

 

[tbtc]

Of course you have conveniently failed to mention that I have suggested that Nottingham should also have direct HS2 services to London

If you start trying to run "classic compatible" services to every city centre near the HS2 route then you complicate the whole point of this simple system (and end up running much shorter trains as a result").

Sadly I fear that you'll get your way and we'll end up with lots of towns/ cities demanding some token direct service to their town/city centre station (rather than the simple "captive" service) which will significantly reduce capacity/ complicate things/ take away a lot of the benefits of HS2.

I'm interested to know why you haven't mentioned buses? When considering integrated public transport buses tend to be one of the priorities and yet you have chosen to ignore them

Because bus routes can be amended at a couple of months notice. It'll take a few years to plan/ build the tram to serve the new Toton station, but bus routes are much more flexible.

With most "out of town" developments you see bus routes amended to try to serve the new facilities - look at how the new bus station at Meadowhall had hundreds of services a day when it opened in 1990 (but it takes many years to plan and build a tram route).

Hardly seemed worth mentioning.

As for local trains, yes these will help but they are not much use if you have baggage. Now of course not everyone travelling to London has a suitcase / large backpack but many do and a local EMU / DMU is next to useless. In which case it's much easier to drag a suitcase on wheels from the station car park to a direct train to London

If you can get your luggage through the doors of an HST from Nottingham to London then dealing with the doors of a local DMU should be possible. By 2032 the East Midlands lines should mainly be EMUs with nice wide doors (wheelchair/ buggy friendly etc), so the "luggage" issue is less important.

It's also worth mentioning customers who rely on a lift / cab to get them from home to the station for an early morning train to London. The extra journey to Toton will not go down well with a wife, not to mention the extra cab fare

I'd imagine that for most of Nottingham/ Derby the extra time taken in a taxi (over and above driving into the centre of the city) will be negated by the saving in journey time on HS2.

 

[HSTEd]

If we had unlimited paths and the approach to Nottingham station was easier, I would agree that city centre stations for Derby and Nottingham would be the optimum solution, in addition to the Toton Parkway station.

But we are path limited (as I pointed out in the other thread) and the approach to Nottingham is completely impractical.

Do we throw away a path giving Derby a service using a 200m compatible unit or do we use it for something else?
Do we route the line through Derby and completely ignore nottingham? Since that is the alternative as there will be no paths free to give Nottingham a train on a spur that goes nowhere afterwards?

 

[LE Greys]

If we had unlimited paths and the approach to Nottingham station was easier, I would agree that city centre stations for Derby and Nottingham would be the optimum solution, in addition to the Toton Parkway station.

But we are path limited (as I pointed out in the other thread) and the approach to Nottingham is completely impractical.

Do we throw away a path giving Derby a service using a 200m compatible unit or do we use it for something else?
Do we route the line through Derby and completely ignore nottingham? Since that is the alternative as there will be no paths free to give Nottingham a train on a spur that goes nowhere afterwards?

Frankly, it depends on whether you want people on HS2 or not, and how well EMT or its successor competes with HS2. HS2's fastest time to Toton is 51 minutes. Allowing a 10-minutes connection and a 5-minute run to Nottingham Midland gives a time of 66 minutes for London Euston-Nottingham Midland. That's assuming they rely on a heavy-rail shuttle, trams would take significantly longer (although exactly how long is not stated).

So, 66 minutes to beat. EMT's current fastest time is the Robin Hood, the 07:50 ex-Nottingham that arrives in St Pancras in 99 minutes. I assume that electrification is going to get it down to 90 minutes by better acceleration and 125 mph top speed. Tilt might reduce it to 80, but that's not going to happen. So, people can save 24 minutes by HS2, but that depends on one change and a heavy-rail shuttle.

This of course assumes you are starting at Nottingham Midland, for the western half of the city, taking the tram to Toton might be quicker, but not so for the eastern half. It also depends on the connection time working, and remember that Toton is a bit out of the way for a heavy-rail shuttle. How this is handled is up to whoever has the EMT franchise at the time, they might even refuse to serve Toton to avoid giving their rivals an advantage, or deliberately screw up the connections (I wouldn't recommend either, it wastes what might be a lucrative connection and most likely the DfT would clamp down on such practices).

It's possible that Toton will turn out to be another Ebbsfleet, where most trains zoom past and connections to the classic network are virtually impossible, depending on how they handle it. On the other hand, it could easily be a key interchange, but that depends on heavy-rail connections from the station. Having HS2 serve East Midlands Parkway (where the Robin Hood stops) would have avoided any such risk and make access to Nottingham easier, but that's another issue. What this means for the possible Nottingham service is that it might be worthwhile to have 1tph replacing the current EMT Nottingham express, with the semi-fast retained.

Hopefully, HS2's planners will keep their options open. But if they're not to end up with stations in splendid isolation with nobody using them, they will have to remember that there is already a rail network out there, just waiting to bring passengers to them, or to be run onto.

Incidentally, my original ideas for HS2 involved running right through Nottingham and reopening Victoria, with trains from Grantham diverted into it. But then, they also ran via Rugby instead of Birningham.

 

[HSTEd]

Toton is not in a green belt is it?
It is entirely possible that after 20 years the area between Nottingham and Derby will have developed to a great degree and we end up talking about "Nottingby".

And the tram connection is going to be 2 minutes (at most) more than the planned time to Toton Lane Park and Ride, which is supposedly 25-30 minutes from the Market Square.

I would expect the service to Nottingham every hour to be a 5-car IEP, at most, with stops at pretty much every IC served station, and possibly continuing to sheffield via Chesterfield.
Ditto for Derby.

And the Victoria Centre would have to be demolished to reopen Victoria station unlesss you want a cramped station in the current car park.

 

[Haydn1971]

You see, my observation, certainly in respect of four of the five locations you mention that I have experience of, is that a miniscule percentage of inward travelers will in fact terminate their journeys in the city centre.

My experience of regular rail travel is just over 18 months and is of Sheffield and Leeds as major destinations - although much of my last 18 months has also been using Meadowhall, Wakefield and Halifax - I've worked 4 months in Leeds so now it's mostly Meadowhall-Leeds.

I travel to Leeds daily now and I'd estimate that 80-90% of people getting off the trains are heading into the city rather than a transfer - I enter mostly at about 8am, but have experience of Leeds from 7am onwards.

I don't get to experience Sheffield in the morning but suspect it is more like the cities you mention rather than Leeds - but my limited experience of Sheffield suggests that most people head out towards the front entrance and mostly towards Howard Street and the city centre - some (not large numbers) use the tram and I'm sure some jump in a cab or head for the bus station.

Your own recommendation would be HS spurs from Meadowhall to Sheffield city centre and from Toton to Nottingham and Derby. Leicester seems to me to be a spur too far - literally.

Not my recommendation - more of a thought that as a daily user of the trains, I'd not catch HS2 to travel into Sheffield from Leeds if the station was at Meadowhall. I might be slightly more convinced of using it from Toton, but fundamentally, I'd be looking at using two motorised modes ideally with my car at the home end and walking at the destination end - otherwise the end to end journey becomes much easier in a car either alone or car sharing. Similarly if I lived in Leeds I'd prefer to drive to the HS2 station rather than drive to a small station and catch a connecting train to reach HS2 to ride HS2 to my ultimate destination - I guess I'm not a fully committed public transport user, I just enjoy the stress free benefits over the drive home from central Leeds to south Sheffield

Here's my question. In your experience as a regular traveler, how many people, hourly and daily, would honestly benefit from this? In other words, how many passengers would really step off the service at Sheffield, Derby, Notts and Leicester and walk to their destination?

Lots of commuters in my view - people are more prepared to take the extra hassle of connecting journeys as a one off, but want the directness of a journey no longer than 60-90 minutes on a daily basis - it's accepted in West Yorkshire (by WYPTE) that an hour is the acceptable cut off for the majority of commuters, It is also accepted that pushing this to 90 minutes that I have is only acceptable with work flexibility, an enjoyable job and a worthwhile pay and benefits package. Work in a basic job and the 60 minute total journey time is more appropriate.

You're talking about one direct service per hour - that's a huge amount of people every day and a massive cost to eliminate the need, in Sheffield's case, for a ten or fifteen minute, three and a half mile shuttle. For how many potential users?

My feeling would be that a varied mix of service schedules could better suit users in the north where there are numerous spare paths - essentially so you can make any trip on one of the 7 paths - either by having seven different patterns or one/two services that stop at all stations - I've not put any thought into paths, that's not my topic of interest, but in terms of engineering, having more access points and classic compatable loops and spurs linking to the main HS2 Phase 2 spine would clearly provide better access for many more people than the current scheme does.

 

[JohnB57]

It's possible that Toton will turn out to be another Ebbsfleet, where most trains zoom past and connections to the classic network are virtually impossible...

Ebbsfleet was designed to be a parkway for fast services to Saint Pancras, to which there are four trains per hour. Most trains don't seem to zoom past to me. In terms of Eurostar services, the demand is of course relatively limited and I've only ever seen an odd person or two getting on or off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd be looking at using two motorised modes ideally with my car at the home end and walking at the destination end - otherwise the end to end journey becomes much easier in a car either alone or car sharing. Similarly if I lived in Leeds I'd prefer to drive to the HS2 station rather than drive to a small station and catch a connecting train to reach HS2 to ride HS2 to my ultimate destination - I guess I'm not a fully committed public transport user, I just enjoy the stress free benefits over the drive home from central Leeds to south Sheffield.

Thanks for the response Haydn - and apologies to just quote a small section, but this bit accords I believe with the way most people commute, or aspire to at least.

But HS2 is not primarily a local commuter line, hence my comments earlier. That is clearly a different market with its own demographic. HS2 wouldn't speed up my theoretical road/rail commute into Sheffield, which would still take a total of an hour and twenty minutes. Having said that, Leeds to Sheffield or vice versa could be an easy 40 minutes using HS and changing at Meadowhall.

I still feel the push for city centre HS stations is more a symbol of city status than a useful transport solution, but I appreciate your broader opinions.

 

[Haydn1971]

Each morning I leave the house and arrive at work90 minutes later, coming home, I leave the office earlier than really necessary to ensure a seat, but arrive home 120 minutes later. I can't catch the 40 minute CrossCountry service as it doesn't stop at Meadowhall, so i'd be stuck with catching a tram home from Sheffield Midland - arriving home later than if I travelled the slower semi-express train.

My journey seems odds, but I suspect many people suffer similar issues with their daily trip. To consider HS2 as a service not for commuters would in my mind be very very foolish indeed - the CrossCountry service each peak is full of commuters between Leeds and Sheffield - I don't see HS2 being any different.

 

[tbtc]

I still feel the push for city centre HS stations is more a symbol of city status than a useful transport solution

I think that you are right here - there's a lot of "civic pride" being seen as people argue that their place justifies a central station.

HS2 is going to be somewhere between Intercity trains and Airports - people seem to use those in large number - we also need to consider that in twenty years time the city centres of today will be very different.

 

[Nym]

The thing is, the station at Leeds will be very easy to access from the M1 and M62 being on the M621 especially for off peak leisure traffic, there isn't a similar situation in Sheffeild other than at Nunnery Square off Sheffeild Parkway, that is too far to be classed as City Centre anyway...

 

[LE Greys]

Toton is not in a green belt is it?
It is entirely possible that after 20 years the area between Nottingham and Derby will have developed to a great degree and we end up talking about "Nottingby".

And the tram connection is going to be 2 minutes (at most) more than the planned time to Toton Lane Park and Ride, which is supposedly 25-30 minutes from the Market Square.

I would expect the service to Nottingham every hour to be a 5-car IEP, at most, with stops at pretty much every IC served station, and possibly continuing to sheffield via Chesterfield.
Ditto for Derby.

And the Victoria Centre would have to be demolished to reopen Victoria station unlesss you want a cramped station in the current car park.

Is that actually possible? Usain Bolt would have trouble with a 2-minute connection that involves a transfer to another mode of transport. Even than, that's 51+2+25, meaning Euston-Nottingham Market Square in 78 minutes. The time from Nottingham Midland to the Market Square is 4 minutes according to Transport Direct, and I'll allow the same 2-minute connection time. 90+2+4=96. Therefore, a real-time saving of 18 minutes. I reckon that whoever operates the MML can still compete on the Nottingham route, provided they have a decent marketing department. Sheffield is another matter.

The Victoria example was put in there to illustrate the sort of thinking that they should have gone for, stations in city centres, or right next to other stations if that's impossible, hence my mention of East Midlands Parkway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The thing is, the station at Leeds will be very easy to access from the M1 and M62 being on the M621 especially for off peak leisure traffic, there isn't a similar situation in Sheffeild other than at Nunnery Square off Sheffeild Parkway, that is too far to be classed as City Centre anyway...

Rail doesn't exactly have a good record when going after car drivers anyway. I tend to think of journeys as being entirely public transport (which possibly comes from not owning a car and may be a flaw in my thinking). You get to your local station on foot, by bus or by taxi, then head out from there. Hence my many comments about a line in 'splendid isolation' and 'lack of connectivity'. If HS2 is going after the car-driving public, then the route does make some sense. It also takes me some way off my territory as a member of the travelling public, since I thought the target market was existing rail-users, who would be likely to be the first to transfer.

 

[tbtc]

The thing is, the station at Leeds will be very easy to access from the M1 and M62 being on the M621 especially for off peak leisure traffic, there isn't a similar situation in Sheffeild other than at Nunnery Square off Sheffeild Parkway, that is too far to be classed as City Centre anyway...

In Sheffield terms, you should either try to squeeze HS2 into Sheffield Midland or you should use Meadowhall. Both Victoria and Nunnery Square offer the worst of both worlds (not a true city centre station, not well connected to local trains, not a lot of parking, an expensive diversion away from the main HS2 route for longer distance passengers, potentially putting Sheffield on a "spur" and therefore losing a lot of HS2 services etc).

Is that actually possible? Usain Bolt would have trouble with a 2-minute connection that involves a transfer to another mode of transport

I think that HSTed was making the point that by 2032 the Nottingham trams should be extended the short distance beyond Toton Lane Park and Ride (planned to be a 25-30 minutes from the Market Square - i.e. Toton HS2 station would be a 27-32 minute journey on a direct tram from Market Square).

Two minutes relates to the extra journey time on the tram (extending its journey beyond the P&R), not to a whole separate journey. Hopefully the direct trains into Nottingham will be a bit faster than the tram, though the train station in Nottingham isn't exactly central.

 

[LE Greys]

In Sheffield terms, you should either try to squeeze HS2 into Sheffield Midland or you should use Meadowhall. Both Victoria and Nunnery Square offer the worst of both worlds (not a true city centre station, not well connected to local trains, not a lot of parking, an expensive diversion away from the main HS2 route for longer distance passengers, potentially putting Sheffield on a "spur" and therefore losing a lot of HS2 services etc).

The way around this, just as it is with Birmingham Curzon Street, is to divert trains out of one station and into another. It would actually be easier with Sheffield than with Birmingham, the former LNER lines ran into Victoria in the first place, although it would take considerable work to split the traffic at Rotherham and Meadowhall and 'unrationalise' track layouts. However, it would depend on through traffic to Manchester, so it's unlikely. Meadowhall is a workable low-cost alternative to this.

I think that HSTed was making the point that by 2032 the Nottingham trams should be extended the short distance beyond Toton Lane Park and Ride (planned to be a 25-30 minutes from the Market Square - i.e. Toton HS2 station would be a 27-32 minute journey on a direct tram from Market Square).

Two minutes relates to the extra journey time on the tram (extending its journey beyond the P&R), not to a whole separate journey. Hopefully the direct trains into Nottingham will be a bit faster than the tram, though the train station in Nottingham isn't exactly central.

Aha, I get it now, thanks. That makes Market Square-Euston 11-16 minutes faster than Market Square-St Pancras. Which isn't a lot, so the MML has some chance of fighting back.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Aha, I get it now, thanks. That makes Market Square-Euston 11-16 minutes faster than Market Square-St Pancras. Which isn't a lot, so the MML has some chance of fighting back.

The thing is though, should we be thinking of 'fighting back'? I think you're missing the whole point of adding HS2 to the network. It's not about preserving or fighting to keep service patterns that have existed for centuries (well maybe century and a half), it's about a total change in the rail transport system. It's about embracing the fast system that removes masses of traffic from (by then) vastly overloaded lines and giving the passengers south of HS2 on EC,M &WCML back some sanity, some space, a seat even. Maybe slightly slower, but with a train turning up more often, totally more civilised. Surely that can't be a bad thing?

 

[Haydn1971]

But lets not forget the massive commuter market - the rail network would be dead without the commuters, why shouldn't this market segment benefit from shorter journey times - it's frankly annoying that it takes 40 minutes on the fastest train to travel to Leeds - mine is 50-55 minutes plus trips each end - door to door Sheffield to Leeds is currently well over an hour unless you live and work next to the associated stations, it's not good enough - I'm tired every night, I want faster services too !

 

[tbtc]

But lets not forget the massive commuter market - the rail network would be dead without the commuters, why shouldn't this market segment benefit from shorter journey times - it's frankly annoying that it takes 40 minutes on the fastest train to travel to Leeds - mine is 50-55 minutes plus trips each end - door to door Sheffield to Leeds is currently well over an hour unless you live and work next to the associated stations, it's not good enough - I'm tired every night, I want faster services too !

Meadowall to Leeds should be something like six trains an hour with a journey time of under half the current fastest train when HS2 opens. All you have to do is keep working for another twenty years, of course...

 

[steamdrivenand]

Meadowall to Leeds should be something like six trains an hour with a journey time of under half the current fastest train when HS2 opens. All you have to do is keep working for another twenty years, of course...

I think Haydn will have taken early retirement by then

Seriously though I spent a large portion of my life commuting from near Hemel Hempstead into Central London and I never could get the trip down below 75 minutes or so.

Hemel to Euston to Goodge St
Chalfont & Latimer to Gt Portland St and walk
Kings Langley to Euston to Liverpool St
Chalfont & Latimer to Farringdon and walk
Watford Junction to Euston to Old St/Moorgate and walk


Can't you wonder that when they offered me a job in North Yorkshire I jumped at it.

 

[Haydn1971]

Meadowall to Leeds should be something like six trains an hour with a journey time of under half the current fastest train when HS2 opens. All you have to do is keep working for another twenty years, of course...

Fastest on that route is about 48 minutes, but mostly 52-55 minutes is the fastest, so roughly a third of the train travel time and the more frequent service will allow me more flexibility on when I catch, rather than getting to Leeds station early to ensure a seat. Overall, I'd like it now please
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I think Haydn will have taken early retirement by then

The cheek of it although I am 42 this year !!! So not that far from the truth, quite like the 153 I ride in daily now (150+153 unit), but it could do with a makeover, seats are fine, but needs the lighting improved, wifi, better environmental system and PID's. Thankfully no pacers on my route

Can't you wonder that when they offered me a job in North Yorkshire I jumped at it.

I suspect we shall move home after mum leaves this world - we couldn't manage being more than a mile away due to her health... So may well join you up there in a few years - any recommendations for a nice small on a good quality route into Leeds ? Ilkley perhaps ?

I'm heading down to London Village next week, never had the pleasure by train and its over 20 years since I was last in the centre. I'm expecting a massive train culture shock. Whilst I bleat on about our trains up here, riding 8-12 carriage units bursting at the seams is a far cry from what my idea of a full train for the last section into Leeds at the peak hour being no seats available - I'll report my thoughts next week

 

[steamdrivenand]

So may well join you up there in a few years - any recommendations for a nice small on a good quality route into Leeds ? Ilkley perhaps ?

I'm heading down to London Village next week, never had the pleasure by train and its over 20 years since I was last in the centre. I'm expecting a massive train culture shock. Whilst I bleat on about our trains up here, riding 8-12 carriage units bursting at the seams is a far cry from what my idea of a full train for the last section into Leeds at the peak hour being no seats available - I'll report my thoughts next week

Sadly no longer up there H. Daughter http://howtobeadomesticdisgrace.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/hello.html produced a grandson nearly 4 years ago and Mrs SDA just had to be nearby. So we ended up in a village 5 miles south of Crewe, midway between the M6 and WCML. Appropriate really because my paternal grandfather used to work for the LMS in the Counting House at Euston.
I can certainly recommend our old North Yorkshire village of Burton Leonard but the nearest live station is 5 miles away in either Knaresbro' or Harrogate. Of course it wasn't always that way as there used to be a station at Wormald Green on the Harrogate to Ripon main line (a bit more than a mile away) or as a really rural alternative there was Copgrove Station on the Knaresbro' to Boroughbridge line. That station was actually on the edge of Staveley and if you look carefully on Google Maps you'll see an old stone railway overbridge south west of the station area. It's a feature because all the embankments either side have been levelled and the bridge sits on its own at the edge of a field, the farm track underneath having disappeared too.
A magical part of the world.

Good luck in the BIG CITY