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HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

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JohnB57

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I'll giggle for you John :lol::lol:
Thanks Andy. I knew there was someone out there for me...

If you think people are going to be attracted to the proposition of a high speed rail journey and then catching a bus to their destination several miles away you are living in a fantasy world. It's the sort of stuff environmentalists come up with but it isn't what normal people do or would ever consider doing.
I think you and I have different definitions of normal and we may as well agree to disagree.

Mine is based on traveling in the real world where a long journey might involve any combination of planes, trains, cars, buses, trams, taxis and shanks's pony.

I can't imagine what sort of reality has the majority of HS2 travelers living a short walk from Sheffield Midland HS/Victoria HS/International, but in your world, you clearly can.
 
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tbtc

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Of the four major cities in the North - one gets a station, another gets a station and a station for it's airport, another gets a station at it's retail park and the other doesn't get a station at all.
I am getting more inclined towards the anti brigade. Can understand why people don't want to pay for something that won't really benefit them or will marginalise their city.

I'm not a huge fan of Meadowhall, but it's a bit dismissive to refer to it as a "retail park"...

The HS2 station is going to be at an existing railway junction with nine trains an hour into Sheffield (based on current frequencies) taking under ten minutes, eight trams an hour into Sheffield (based on current frequencies), right next to the M1 and with its own busy bus station.

A bit more than just a Carphone Warehouse and empty branch of Comet...

And some fell on stony ground.

I'll giggle for you John :lol::lol:

+1

:lol::lol::lol:

If you think people are going to be attracted to the proposition of a high speed rail journey and then catching a bus to their destination several miles away you are living in a fantasy world. It's the sort of stuff environmentalists come up with but it isn't what normal people do or would ever consider doing.

Based on my experience, people arriving at London Termini seem to manage to use public transport to get to their actual destination (since Euston/ Liverpool Street/ Paddington/ Waterloo etc are some way from a lot of the city centre).

How come people are suggesting that those arriving at Meadowhall won't be able to cope like that?
 

Mutant Lemming

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I'm not a huge fan of Meadowhall, but it's a bit dismissive to refer to it as a "retail park"...

The HS2 station is going to be at an existing railway junction with nine trains an hour into Sheffield (based on current frequencies) taking under ten minutes, eight trams an hour into Sheffield (based on current frequencies), right next to the M1 and with its own busy bus station.

A bit more than just a Carphone Warehouse and empty branch of Comet...





+1

:lol::lol::lol:



Based on my experience, people arriving at London Termini seem to manage to use public transport to get to their actual destination (since Euston/ Liverpool Street/ Paddington/ Waterloo etc are some way from a lot of the city centre).

How come people are suggesting that those arriving at Meadowhall won't be able to cope like that?

Meadowhall has killed off half the trade in Sheffield city centre as it is giving it the HS2 station will be the final nail in the coffin - no need for 1 train an hour let alone 9.
 

JGR

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Meadowhall has killed off half the trade in Sheffield city centre as it is giving it the HS2 station will be the final nail in the coffin - no need for 1 train an hour let alone 9.
This phenomenon is hardly unique to Sheffield.
Nor is it really a problem, if Meadowhall can do the job of providing retail services more efficiently, and with actual parking spaces and transport links as a bonus, why shouldn't it take over?

In the years before Meadowhall HS2 station opens, I think it's a given that there'll be plenty of local capitalisation on the transport/business implications. If that means people/businesses moving closer to Meadowhall, so be it.
 

RichmondCommu

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Most people don't live or work at Derby Midland or Nottingham Midland, though! If you need to take a bus/tram/bike/car to get to the station, then as long as Toton has good road, bus and rail links with neighbouring districts, good taxi access and good parking, it will be no harder than the city centre stations for the vast majority of people (whether they live in the E Mids and are heading south, or they're Londoners visiting local industry).

Derby and Nottingham aren't like Leeds or Manchester, where a large proportion of local skilled employment is in the city centre, or where existing transport links make the mainline station easy for suburbanites to reach. Most people live and work in suburbs. In that context, as long as Toton is tied properly into local transport networks, it's no worse than either mainline station for most people.

At best your post is generic and nothing more. It's very clear that you have very little knowledge of the East Midlands (Derby Midland anyone?). As I've already posted Toton sidings has very poor road access and the A52 and M1 are heavily congested in the peak am and pm. Whilst road access to Toton could be improved the price will be horrific in terms of disruption and financial cost.

While I would agree that most people live in the suburbs, this is what makes having a central station so attractive! Toton is very much on the peripheral for Nottingham (a large sprawling city) and no where near Derby and its suburbs! As I've already suggested, it would make far more sense to run shortened trains on classic routes into existing stations. The SNCF and DB seem to know a thing or two about high speed travel and this is precisely what they do.

In terms of industry, the two companies in the East Midlands with the brightest futures are Rolls Royce and Toyota. Both are predominately located in the western suburbs of Derby and a long way from Toton! And all at the mercy of the A52, A50 and Derby inner ring road at the height of the peak! You have also failed to realise that significant numbers of people are employed in Pride Park (right by Derby station) and of course in a relatively central location. And indeed the same can be said for Nottingham with its regional offices and top class universities.

You have also failed to realise that Derby and Nottingham are important stations for the surrounding areas and would be ideal to link in with High speed trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Agreed Johnb, what's better building a station midway between the two cities or nearest access Sheffied or somehow trying to ram two stations into the city centres of Derby and Nottingham and trying to link them with the wide arcs that HS2 has to use. Demolitioning your way in and out of a city, let alone two will cause even greater probs. and if you build in Derby it'll upset Notts and vice versa. Like Meadowhall, a Parkway station with good inter modal (hate that phrase) links are the way to go.

Hang on a minute, who said anything about building new stations in Derby and Nottingham, let alone a new railway? I certainly didn't! The whole point of my original post was to follow highly successful SNCF and DB practice and run shortened (200m) high speed trains for a short distance on classic lines. Which by this point will have been upgraded to 125mph running, as opposed to a Parkway which is a devil to get to in the peak!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can understand why people don't want to pay for something that won't really benefit them or will marginalise their city.

Well exactly! We need to be winning hearts and minds here!
 
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HSTEd

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But shortened trains throw away capacity that has been purchased at absurd expense.
(Especially classic compatible trains that cannot be double decker).

And unfortunately you can't clear the Eastern approach to Nottingham station for double decks since the station concourse is directly over the approaches and I have my doubts as to how they will procure the clearance for the overhead wiring let alone anything else.
 

RichmondCommu

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There is no 'Premium Rate', the business case for HS2 assumes no addition to the ticket price. The extra revenue comes from the stepchange in frequency and seats available.

Knowing a thing or two about making money, I would suggest that this business case is fundamentally flawed and the National Audit office appears to agree with me. You only have to look at South Eastern's high speed Kent services to realise that this is absolute nonsense! The Government will insist that users of HS2 pay more than they would to use classic services in order to recoup some of their investment. Now I don't have a problem with this but let's not try and be too blinkered about things!
 

HSTEd

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Knowing a thing or two about making money, I would suggest that this business case is fundamentally flawed and the National Audit office appears to agree with me. You only have to look at South Eastern's high speed Kent services to realise that this is absolute nonsense! The Government will insist that users of HS2 pay more than they would to use classic services in order to recoup some of their investment. Now I don't have a problem with this but let's not try and be too blinkered about things!

But HS2 trains will have lower costs than conventional ones.
It would cost the government more for people to use the conventional trains than the High Speed ones.

This is not the case for the SE High Speed services.
 

RichmondCommu

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But shortened trains throw away capacity that has been purchased at absurd expense.
(Especially classic compatible trains that cannot be double decker).

And unfortunately you can't clear the Eastern approach to Nottingham station for double decks since the station concourse is directly over the approaches and I have my doubts as to how they will procure the clearance for the overhead wiring let alone anything else.

But who is to say that all services have to be double decked? And what is there to stop the railway from separating two trains in Birmingham? The absurd expense could be reduced by making more use of the infrastructure that we already have. I think a few people on here could benefit from a visit to Germany!
But HS2 trains will have lower costs than conventional ones.
It would cost the government more for people to use the conventional trains than the High Speed ones.

This is not the case for the SE High Speed services.

A further explanation would be appreciated as I'm not quite sure that I follow what you're saying. The Government will be determined to ensure that customers contribute towards the cost of the new line, hence the premium fares. This is reflected in the current increases in ticket prices (which the Government has made no attempt to hide).
 
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But who is to say that all services have to be double decked? And what is there to stop the railway from separating two trains in Birmingham? The absurd expense could be reduced by making more use of the infrastructure that we already have. I think a few people on here could benefit from a visit to Germany!


A further explanation would be appreciated as I'm not quite sure that I follow what you're saying. The Government will be determined to ensure that customers contribute towards the cost of the new line, hence the premium fares. This is reflected in the current increases in ticket prices (which the Government has made no attempt to hide).

Richmond I think rather than being London-centric, you're in danger of being Derby-centric.

I can't get my head round your suggestions.

Is it that you support HS2 but that it should loop into the centre of both Derby and Nottingham before heading north? That has got all sorts of issues about demolishing your way in and out of two cities, 'dwell' time in the region slowing down the overall service, building two stations and not just one.

Some of those issues also apply if you're suggesting spurs off HS2 into both cities and they also apply if those spurs were Classic and Compatibles were used. The dilution of capacity over the line being another as double decker 400m trains couldn't be used.

If you're suggesting only Derby Central should have an HS2 station then that has issues too, not least having an upset neighbouring city. Think how your opposite number in Nottingham would feel.

The desire to put an East Mids station on HS2 has always been there but it was always known that the relevant cities would bicker about its location. Toton seems to be a sensible compromise.

At present pricing would be based on tendering by TOCs, which is a competitive process. Well it is for the TOCs anyway, maybe the DfT just spin a coin :roll: No TOC is going to want to run this enormous undertaking and make a loss, despite historic evidence. The only way you can get enough income is to fill the massive number of seats and the only way to do that is to attract as many punters as possible. Premium pricing will not do that. And costs per seat are kept well down by the double decker nature of Captive stock and it's high level of utilisation due to high speed, long trains, improved signalling and frequent service. Premium pricing will cause the whole thing to die within weeks.
 

HSTEd

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But who is to say that all services have to be double decked? And what is there to stop the railway from separating two trains in Birmingham? The absurd expense could be reduced by making more use of the infrastructure that we already have. I think a few people on here could benefit from a visit to Germany!

We don't really save very much by reusing existing infrastructure in station approaches when you consider that the lines you want to use are already far more heavily loaded than they would be on the continent.
We are going to end up with something more closely resembling a Shinkansen simply because the entire route is paralleling lines that are exceptionally heavily loaded.

As to seperating the two trains at Birmingham, that would probably make the situation less bad but you will still end up burning off two paths to run captive formations with under a thousand seats to Nottingham and Derby (since you will likely need atleast two trains each) when those paths could be providing close to 1350 seats each (with fewer staff aboard) on the primary corridor if they were formed of 400m captive units.

Double decked trains allow a ~30% increase in the capacity of the train and thus a ~30% increase in the number of passengers that can be moved for each member of the railway staff. Journeys are sufficiently short that a large catering team is not required reducing the staff requirement to a couple of people in first class and a driver.

That same crew can move 500 people if its a classic 200m set or 1350 people if its a captive 400m doubledeck.

A further explanation would be appreciated as I'm not quite sure that I follow what you're saying. The Government will be determined to ensure that customers contribute towards the cost of the new line, hence the premium fares. This is reflected in the current increases in ticket prices (which the Government has made no attempt to hide).

The quicker journey time leads to reduced costs because we need less rolling stock and thus fewer crews to provide the service, and because of the simplified nature of the infrastructure means that the entire High Speed network can be controlled by a handful of personnel in a single integrated control centre.

Since all High Speed stations can be expected to be barriered DOO is also a possibility in light of the safety capabilites offered by ERTMS Level 2 or even Level 3.

The cost of energy to mvoe the sets faster is minimal, the fact is you can almost cut the number of sets in half compared to the conventional service to many destinations (Manchester being chief here, 2hr08 to 1hr08).
 
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Martin222002

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But who is to say that all services have to be double decked? And what is there to stop the railway from separating two trains in Birmingham? The absurd expense could be reduced by making more use of the infrastructure that we already have. I think a few people on here could benefit from a visit to Germany!

The issue here is that there simply isn't the demand for to warrant using a path on HS2 to Birmingham Interchange for a pair of 200m classic compatible trains to split and then each join the MML somewhere around Trent Junction to serve the existing Nottingham and Derby stations. The benefit-cost ratios just won't add up, and this is why it has been suggested by HS2 ltd. Using paths in such a way would mean there would be less paths to serve places further north.

The main aim of HS2 is to serve Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, and as to get to Leeds you have to pass through the Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield areas it would make sense to add stations there to serve those areas as well.

Also the MML is to see a great deal of investment in control period 5 and on into period 6, with electrification and potential bring back of 4 tracks from London to Kettering. These will both help to increase capacity on the MML for the long term, and as such I don't think services on the MML will be significantly slowed down in anyway, mainly due to the fact that Leicester will still require fast services to London, and HS2 was never going to change that.
 

RichmondCommu

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Richmond I think rather than being London-centric, you're in danger of being Derby-centric.

I can't get my head round your suggestions.

Is it that you support HS2 but that it should loop into the centre of both Derby and Nottingham before heading north? That has got all sorts of issues about demolishing your way in and out of two cities, 'dwell' time in the region slowing down the overall service, building two stations and not just one.

Some of those issues also apply if you're suggesting spurs off HS2 into both cities and they also apply if those spurs were Classic and Compatibles were used. The dilution of capacity over the line being another as double decker 400m trains couldn't be used.

If you're suggesting only Derby Central should have an HS2 station then that has issues too, not least having an upset neighbouring city. Think how your opposite number in Nottingham would feel.

The desire to put an East Mids station on HS2 has always been there but it was always known that the relevant cities would bicker about its location. Toton seems to be a sensible compromise.

At present pricing would be based on tendering by TOCs, which is a competitive process. Well it is for the TOCs anyway, maybe the DfT just spin a coin :roll: No TOC is going to want to run this enormous undertaking and make a loss, despite historic evidence. The only way you can get enough income is to fill the massive number of seats and the only way to do that is to attract as many punters as possible. Premium pricing will not do that. And costs per seat are kept well down by the double decker nature of Captive stock and it's high level of utilisation due to high speed, long trains, improved signalling and frequent service. Premium pricing will cause the whole thing to die within weeks.

If you read my posts carefully you will see that I'm not proposing to build high speed spurs into either Nottingham or Derby. My suggestion is that high speed trains use existing lines to run into existing stations! No need to build new stations and no need to demolish anything. And as for slowing down things, by that stage the MML will be fit for 125mph running and it won't affect other services on HS2.

By building two two types of high speed train existing stations can be used which will save us a lot of money.

I would agree that Toton is a compromise but for many people improved journey times to London will be cancelled out by the need to travel to Toton in the first place! Especially given the significant improvements that are planned for the MML. If you live say in West Bridgford travelling to Toton will be a complete waste of time! In reality Toton has been chosen because there is lots of redundant railway land.

I would be very surprised if the Government doesn't introduce premium rate ticketing on HS2. And it’s no surprise that the National Audit Office feels the same way. I honestly don't think that there will be sufficient demand to make the figures add up. In principle I agree with HS2 but I do think that some of us need to be a little more realistic!
 

Martin222002

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And as for slowing down things, by that stage the MML will be fit for 125mph running and it won't affect other services on HS2.

Yes the MML is seeing line speed upgrades, but the sections of 125mph running are limited, and the upgrades are only being done south of East Midlands Parkway, so would have no effect on the running speed of HS2 trains.

I would be very surprised if the Government doesn't introduce premium rate ticketing on HS2. And it’s no surprise that the National Audit Office feels the same way. I honestly don't think that there will be sufficient demand to make the figures add up. In principle I agree with HS2 but I do think that some of us need to be a little more realistic!

Well if you don't think there will be sufficient demand anyway, then adding a premium to tickets will only reduce it further. Also, in the off peak there would be the potential to sell very cheap advance tickets, give that most trains will have 1,000+ seats, as that's how yield management works. Pricing tickets according to the amount of capacity available relative to the level of demand at any particular time at each station.
 

tbtc

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Toton sidings has very poor road access and the A52 and M1 are heavily congested in the peak am and pm

Whereas there'd be no congestion driving into the centre of Nottingham for a train station there?

Toton is very much on the peripheral for Nottingham (a large sprawling city) and no where near Derby and its suburbs!

In terms of industry, the two companies in the East Midlands with the brightest futures are Rolls Royce and Toyota. Both are predominately located in the western suburbs of Derby and a long way from Toton!

So what's the solution? You can't run a High Speed service from London to Leeds into both Derby and Nottingham, you can't run a High Speed service into either city without a lot of new infrastructure. Build a High Speed station in the western suburbs of Derby?

Toton is relatively close to both city centres without alienating one city, it's on the right side of Nottingham for most of the University and Boots traffic, it's a compromise (just like everything else in the world).
 
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My suggestion is that high speed trains use existing lines to run into existing stations! No need to build new stations and no need to demolish anything.

A high speed spur into both cities will involve demolition and displacing people because the Classic lines will remain. I doubt whether Captive trains will fit the existing structures and so you'll be building two new lines of roughly the same length as the one that's planned and they'll both be going through more expensive landscape, much more expensive if it's tunnelled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And as for slowing down things, by that stage the MML will be fit for 125mph running and it won't affect other services on HS2.

I'm talking about slowing down the whole of the HS2, nothing to do with MML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
By building two two types of high speed train existing stations can be used which will save us a lot of money.

There are already plans for two types of train Captives that are double decker and 400m long and Compatibles that are single decker and about the length of current trains but with high speed capability. Are you suggesting a third type now?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would agree that Toton is a compromise but for many people improved journey times to London will be cancelled out by the need to travel to Toton in the first place! Especially given the significant improvements that are planned for the MML. If you live say in West Bridgford travelling to Toton will be a complete waste of time! In reality Toton has been chosen because there is lots of redundant railway land.

And isn't it great that a lump of railway land is so convenient and masses of houses, factories, schools and hospital don't have to go to accommodate it? I've just run Google Maps over a Allestree journey to Toton and it's saying 12 or so miles taking 21mins or 30 mins depending on route. Similarly Carlton on the west of Nottingham is about 12 miles and takes 30 to 32 mins. That seems fairly equal to me.

Nottingham City Centre is 9 miles and 22 mins from Toton and Derby City Centre is 10 miles but only takes 16 mins. So on that basis Derby appears better situated.

Trent Bridge is about 9 miles and 20 minutes drive and getting to the current Nottingham Station is 3 miles and 10 minutes.

So for the residents of West Bridgford they have a choice of heading into the city centre and parking at the current station in 10 minutes or an HS2 station that's an extra 10 minutes away. They're going to be lucky to have the luxury of choice and an alternate in times of hold ups etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would be very surprised if the Government doesn't introduce premium rate ticketing on HS2. And it’s no surprise that the National Audit Office feels the same way. I honestly don't think that there will be sufficient demand to make the figures add up. In principle I agree with HS2 but I do think that some of us need to be a little more realistic!

I think others have explained the fallacy of premium pricing which might work if there was limited supply, but that won't apply to HS2. In any case the TOC running the thing will decide on pricing by way of the deal they've agreed with the Government. They're not going to price themselves out of customers when the expenditure and volumes of seats available means they have to have masses of customers.
 
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Chris125

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I would be very surprised if the Government doesn't introduce premium rate ticketing on HS2. And it’s no surprise that the National Audit Office feels the same way. I honestly don't think that there will be sufficient demand to make the figures add up. In principle I agree with HS2 but I do think that some of us need to be a little more realistic!

It's simple economics - the day HS2 opens the number of services and seats available will dramatically increase overnight.

That wasn't the case with HS1, the commuter services were faster but did not provide the same stepchange in capacity provision nor was the existing line facing the capacity issues that the existing north-south mainlines will be suffering from in 15-20 years time. Beginning operation during a recession didn't help either.

To justify the investment that made a premium necessary to achieve the extra revenue. However as HS2 does provide a sizeable increase in capacity, while also freeing up capacity on the existing network, the increase in passenger numbers provides the extra revenue instead.

Chris
 
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Looking in detail at the EM Parkway Station design, it would be very easy indeed to have two south facing cords added to the design to have services be able to call at the station, split with 200m of classic compatable heading North and the remaining 200m heading back south to Trent Junction to head onwards to Derby and Nottingham (one or the other) and of course, good high speed services from Derby and Nottingham being able to come and call at this station all on their own. These could quite merrily sod off via York or another link near Sheffeild toward Doncaster...

Would it be possible to run a classic compatible set from Nottingham station into Toton and then up HS2 to Leeds or on to Newcastle etc?
 

nerd

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It's simple economics - the day HS2 opens the number of services and seats available will dramatically increase overnight.

That wasn't the case with HS1, the commuter services were faster but did not provide the same stepchange in capacity provision nor was the existing line facing the capacity issues that the existing north-south mainlines will be suffering from in 15-20 years time. Beginning operation during a recession didn't help either.

To justify the investment that made a premium necessary to achieve the extra revenue. However as HS2 does provide a sizeable increase in capacity, while also freeing up capacity on the existing network, the increase in passenger numbers provides the extra revenue instead.

Chris

Absolutely right.

Comparing HS2 with train operators on classic lines is a bit tricky. Both HS2 and the TOCs are given the rail network their trains run on effectively 'for free'; HS2 Ltd will not have to pay back the £34bn cost of building the new line, just as Virgin does not have to pay back the costs of building the WCML (or its £10bn failed upgrade).

But the cost-base for HS2 will be far less than that for the TOCs. They can run with far lower staffing levels carrying far more revenue-yielding passengers; and their higher speeds mean that each individual train makes many more round trips per day. So, even though HS2 Ltd's operating costs will include repaying the £7bn purchase of the captive and classic compatible stock, they could stll beat the existing TOCs hollow in a price war.

However, the politicians have made it clear that that would be unacceptable. If a person riding from Stoke to Euston has not only to run slower than someone riding HS2 from Crewe to Euston, but also pay a higher fare, this would cause a riot. HS2 Ltd will, however, try to hold the line that the fares will be the same; though I suspect that 'advance offers' on the HS2 services will reflect their lower underlying cost base by coming in at lot cheaper.
 
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However, the politicians have made it clear that that would be unacceptable. If a person riding from Stoke to Euston has not only to run slower than someone riding HS2 from Crewe to Euston, but also pay a higher fare, this would cause a riot. HS2 Ltd will, however, try to hold the line that the fares will be the same; though I suspect that 'advance offers' on the HS2 services will reflect their lower underlying cost base by coming in at lot cheaper.

But surely HS2 Ltd are charged with developing and building the line , not with running it once it's in existence. Pricing then flows from the economics of whichever TOC wins the franchise from the DfT and tends to be whoever promises to pay that nice Mr Osbourne the most or demand the least for the pleasure of using his trainset. As such therefore it's perfectly possible that a premium price can't be levied.
 

nerd

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But surely HS2 Ltd are charged with developing and building the line , not with running it once it's in existence. Pricing then flows from the economics of whichever TOC wins the franchise from the DfT and tends to be whoever promises to pay that nice Mr Osbourne the most or demand the least for the pleasure of using his trainset. As such therefore it's perfectly possible that a premium price can't be levied.

Indeed so; though I doubt that the current franchising regime will last much longer.

But some sort of franchise will apply, and the franchisee will have to say how much subsidy they expect, or how much they will pay.

But the key point is that this will be independent of the construction costs of the line; in so far as their are access fees for rail opertors, they won't be priced to repay differential capital expenditure on different lines (as they are not now).

So the key question is how much demand there will be - since HS2 Ltd is reckoning that, by the time the lines open there will be large unmet demand - they will be strongly motivated to keep prices low and fill their trains will all those lovely fare-paying passengers.

It is only if the polticians force them, that they will set supplementary fares. That said, such supplements have been politically imposed in many countries.
 

JGR

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Map of the possible services once HS2 is completed.


Untitled by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr
I was under the impression that Brimingham (sic) would be on a spur, not running through?
Euston to Edinburgh via the WCML and international services to Manchester/Leeds and intermediary stations also seem a bit optimistic to me.
 

Class377/5

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I was under the impression that Brimingham (sic) would be on a spur, not running through?
Euston to Edinburgh via the WCML and international services to Manchester/Leeds and intermediary stations also seem a bit optimistic to me.

I cheated. As there's a massive complex delta which allows for reversing, I kept it simple and just did it this way. That way all the options are presented as now but looks far neater.

As for service plans, well only time will tell on that one. However most of the options are based off the HS2 map showing this.
 

RichmondCommu

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A high speed spur into both cities will involve demolition and displacing people because the Classic lines will remain. I doubt whether Captive trains will fit the existing structures and so you'll be building two new lines of roughly the same length as the one that's planned and they'll both be going through more expensive landscape, much more expensive if it's tunneled.

Hang on a minute; at no point have I suggested building high speed spurs into Derby and Nottingham so please refrain from putting words into my mouth. What evidence have you got to suggest that single deck trains will not fit the existing structures? By using existing routes into Derby and Nottingham there will be no need to demolish anything.

I'm talking about slowing down the whole of the HS2, nothing to do with MML.

Well there doesn't appear to have been any problems with linking classic routes to HS1 so why should it create a problem with HS2?

There are already plans for two types of train Captives that are double decker and 400m long and Compatibles that are single decker and about the length of current trains but with high speed capability. Are you suggesting a third type now?

No I'm suggesting that single deck trains of 200m would be more sensible which could be doubled up in peak times. This works perfectly well for the SNCF so why not here? People are seriously over estimating the number of customers who will be using HS2 outside of the peak travelling times. I would love to know where people think all these passengers are going to come from. And so would the National Audit Office!

And isn't it great that a lump of railway land is so convenient and masses of houses, factories, schools and hospital don't have to go to accommodate it? I've just run Google Maps over a Allestree journey to Toton and it's saying 12 or so miles taking 21mins or 30 mins depending on route. Similarly Carlton on the west of Nottingham is about 12 miles and takes 30 to 32 mins. That seems fairly equal to me.

Nottingham City Centre is 9 miles and 22 mins from Toton and Derby City Centre is 10 miles but only takes 16 mins. So on that basis Derby appears better situated.

Trent Bridge is about 9 miles and 20 minutes drive and getting to the current Nottingham Station is 3 miles and 10 minutes.

So for the residents of West Bridgford they have a choice of heading into the city centre and parking at the current station in 10 minutes or an HS2 station that's an extra 10 minutes away. They're going to be lucky to have the luxury of choice and an alternate in times of hold ups etc.

I'm sorry but your travel time estimates are very much short of the mark and were clearly taken from Google at the weekend (or so you have suggested). Travel in the peak, especially along the A52 is very different to the weekend. As far Derby is concerned you have not taken into account (as I have suggested) the large western suburbs.

I don't have a problem with a Parkway station at Toton but if we are to win over hearts and minds we need to run some trains over existing routes into city centres. This would involve very little extra expense for 200m trains and enable HS2 to reach a lot more people. As things stand, unless the service is reduced on the MML to Derby and Nottingham many people will simply not bother heading out to Toton. Not only that but a station at Toton may make the traffic situation even worse.

I think others have explained the fallacy of premium pricing which might work if there was limited supply, but that won't apply to HS2. In any case the TOC running the thing will decide on pricing by way of the deal they've agreed with the Government. They're not going to price themselves out of customers when the expenditure and volumes of seats available means they have to have masses of customers.

As I've already stated where are all these customers going to from? While I do think that HS2 is certainly worth while some of the estimates regarding passenger numbers are bordering on fantasy. There are simply not enough people travelling between the north and London to make the business plan viable unless the Government reduces the service on classic routes. Either that or to generate enough income they will have to charge a premium. It's ridiculous to suggest that the same journey on the HS2 will be no more expensive than the MML. And if fares on the MML become cheaper many customers will simply focus on cost.
 
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nerd

Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
524
Hang on a minute; at no point have I suggested building high speed spurs into Derby and Nottingham so please refrain from putting words into my mouth. What evidence have you got to suggest that single deck trains will not fit the existing structures? By using existing routes into Derby and Nottingham there will be no need to demolish anything.

the HS2 captive stock will be built to GC guage which is higher and wider than the BR standard guage. In particular, it won't be able to fit within the platforms on any passenger station; but if you set the platforms back, that creates an unacceptable gap for UK guage stock.

http://www.railway-technical.com/berne.shtml


Well there doesn't appear to have been any problems with linking classic routes to HS1 so why should it create a problem with HS2?

because the HS1 stock is classic-compatible, not captive, in guage. Note that, as well as having a lot more space, captive trains will be much cheaper to buy and maintain than classic-compatible units of the same length.

No I'm suggesting that single deck trains of 200m would be more sensible which could be doubled up in peak times. This works perfectly well for the SNCF so why not here? People are seriously over estimating the number of customers who will be using HS2 outside of the peak travelling times. I would love to know where people think all these passengers are going to come from. And so would the National Audit Office!

it may well be that the stock will be 200m single deck, but most will still be captive guage.

I don't have a problem with a Parkway station at Toton but if we are to win over hearts and minds we need to run some trains over existing routes into city centres. This would involve very little extra expense for 200m trains and enable HS2 to reach a lot more people. As things stand, unless the service is reduced on the MML to Derby and Nottingham many people will simply not bother heading out to Toton. Not only that but a station at Toton may make the traffic situation even worse.

you are right that central locations are generally to be preferred for stations in major cities; but neither Derby nor Nottingham counts as a major city in its own right, and if you want to serve both then Toton is as good a site as any.

As I've already stated where are all these customers going to from? While I do think that HS2 is certainly worth while some of the estimates regarding passenger numbers are bordering on fantasy. There are simply not enough people travelling between the north and London to make the business plan viable unless the Government reduces the service on classic routes. Either that or to generate enough income they will have to charge a premium. It's ridiculous to suggest that the same journey on the HS2 will be no more expensive than the MML. And if fares on the MML become cheaper many customers will simply focus on cost.

Fast services will be substantially reduced on classic routes from the North West in particular, being replaced by 'replaced capacity' services with more stops and higher frequency.

That is the major point of HS2, by taking the non-stop long-distance traffic off the classic lines it releses capacity for expansion of commuter and regional rail services.

see below at Appendix A

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2012_-explanation-of-the-service-patterns.pdf

They won't charge a premiium; indeed , as the HS2 captive services will be much cheaper to run, and carry more fare-paying passengers, the operators should be able to undercut fares for travelling equivalent distances on the classic lines. However, they are unlikely to be allowed to do this for political reasons.

The demand model is explained here

http://www.hs2.org.uk/sites/default/files/inserts/Demand for Long Distance Travel.pdf

Our forecasts continue the past growth, but generally at a more modest level than seen on average over the last 15 years. Long distance rail and air travel grow the fastest.

There are plans to increase capacity on the rail network, and specifically the West Coast Main Line through train lengthening, resulting in just under a 20% increase in the number of seats. This is not nearly sufficient to meet the forecast growth in demand up to 2043.

Without additional capacity, which is only possible with major investment, rising demand is likely to lead to significantly increased crowding.
 
Joined
27 Jan 2011
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203
Location
North Staffs/Cheshire border
I'm sorry but your travel time estimates are very much short of the mark and were clearly taken from Google at the weekend (or so you have suggested). Travel in the peak, especially along the A52 is very different to the weekend. As far Derby is concerned you have not taken into account (as I have suggested) the large western suburbs.

OK I'll be pedantic the Allestree measurement was from Kedleston Road which is about as far west as you can go in north west of Derby.

However another glance at the map tells me the south western suburbs go further west. So how about Ladybank Road, Mickleover which is about 12 miles as the crow flies and takes between 24 and 30 mins depending on route. Admittedly it'll take longer at peak times, but Derby Station is 6 miles and takes 13 minutes, but probably takes nearer 30 minutes in the rush hour.

So again Toton provides a good alternative with just 6 extra miles and 11 minutes extra travelling. Say 20 extra minutes at peak times with the relevant road improvements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As I've already stated where are all these customers going to from?

Others have mentioned how these figures have been selected.

What people don't seem to be able to fathom is that HS2 is talking about coping with the situation in 20 years time. 20 years! A quarter of a lifetime. It's not next week, next year, in 5 years or even a decade. Traffic on the railways has been growing fast for 15 years and additional coaches and other improvements will help, but even if growth is only 2% a year the traffic will increase by 50%, half as much again as travel now.

Arguing that Virgin expresses leaving Euston now, at peak times, have spare capacity (and conveniently forgetting that LM and other local services are rammed), is completely missing the point that potentially when HS2 comes on line demand could be around 50% higher, maybe more, maybe less, but we have to plan to cope.

Admittedly the largest proportion of passengers are within 30 miles of London, but they will be catered for by the paths that HS2 allows to be cleared of long distance expresses. That by definition will mean that WCML and probably MML will be slower with many more stopping trains. So the MML may not be so enticing, as whilst it might be cheaper it could take much longer as even with faster running speeds there'll be more stops

HS2 will be for ultra fast train travel to somewhere near large conurbations serving, that horrible term 'City/Regions' and really enormous conurbations will get central stations at the end of spurs. So don't expect more of what railways have done since Victoria reigned, this will be different and needs looking at in a different, possibly open minded way.
 
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tbtc

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Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,885
Location
Reston City Centre
What people don't seem to be able to fathom is that HS2 is talking about coping with the situation in 20 years time. 20 years! A quarter of a lifetime. It's not next week, next year, in 5 years or even a decade

I hope that everyone reads this comment - it's something that so many of the critics seem to forget
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,697
No I'm suggesting that single deck trains of 200m would be more sensible which could be doubled up in peak times. This works perfectly well for the SNCF so why not here? People are seriously over estimating the number of customers who will be using HS2 outside of the peak travelling times. I would love to know where people think all these passengers are going to come from. And so would the National Audit Office!

Well for one thing Manchester joins the commuter belt.
This means we willl likely see a reduction in the gradient of house prices as you move north along the line. (Ie. prices should increase near the stations in the North West, equalising with locations south of London).

People will likely live further north and commute using HS2, which could easily generate enormous flows.
And then there is the possibility for reverse peak transits to jobs in Manchester from the South East or from Birmingham et al.

As to where off peak traffic will come from.... you have to understand just how cheap it will be to travel between the cities, it means that nights at the theatre in the west end have travel costs that are rounding errors, hell it means that students in London can come experience the Manchester nightlife for almost nothing.

A massive cultural shift can be expected, since Manchester ends up somewhere in the vicinity of Northampton or Grantham... firmly within London's orbit and Birmingham ends up somewhere near Northampton.

As to the idea of doubling up 200m sets as they do on SNCF, you have to remember that SNCFs network is entirelu different.
HSR in France is about journey times as it can have long double deck trains on its regular network if it wants.

This is about capacity, if you calculate the marginal cost of running a 400m set like a proposed TGV Grande Capacité instead of a single 200m TGV Duplex set... you end up with the extra seats costing ~£3.85 each return to Birmingham. (Since you don't have to pay capital costs on the line, on the rolling stock since you already have it for peak reinforcmeent and the train requires no additional staff, it is just energy and track/train maintenance)

Its absurdly cheap.
2 x 200m sets requires extra staff (since you must provide 2 crews with the exception of a second driver), it reduces capacity on the paths, it leaves rolling stock idle and it confuses passengers
 
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joeykins82

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24 Jul 2012
Messages
601
Location
London
I'm not sure that Manchester ends up in the commuter belt since the annual season ticket costs £13904 (with underground, £13272 without) so, assuming the London salary would tip one in to the 40% tax bracket (42% effective rate with the 2% NI above UEL) one could take a pay cut of £23972.41 to work in central Manchester (or £22882.76 if one's office was walkable from Euston) and come out evens financially and with a couple of hours per day spare not spent on a train.
 
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