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HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

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deltic

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Haydn. I've asked this question before, not got any meaningful answer and given up. But maybe you can help me.

You see, my observation, certainly in respect of four of the five locations you mention that I have experience of, is that a miniscule percentage of inward travelers will in fact terminate their journeys in the city centre. Your own recommendation would be HS spurs from Meadowhall to Sheffield city centre and from Toton to Nottingham and Derby. Leicester seems to me to be a spur too far - literally.

Here's my question. In your experience as a regular traveler, how many people, hourly and daily, would honestly benefit from this? In other words, how many passengers would really step off the service at Sheffield, Derby, Notts and Leicester and walk to their destination? You're talking about one direct service per hour - that's a huge amount of people every day and a massive cost to eliminate the need, in Sheffield's case, for a ten or fifteen minute, three and a half mile shuttle. For how many potential users?

Rather belated answer - research done on long distance travel (ie Manchester to London and south east etc) found that around 20-25% of passengers in provincial cities walked to and from the station.

Parkway stations are fine for trips from provinces to London eg from East Midlands to London - but virtually no-one will use for business purposes traveling from London northwards. Who is going to travel first class from London to Totton then change to a tram or local dmu for a 20-30 min ride to Nottingham or Derby city centre. How many people travel from London to East Midlands or Warwick Parkway and back - the trips are virtually all the other way.
 
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si404

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a 20-30 min ride to Nottingham or Derby city centre.
12-15 minutes (depending on which city centre) to the city centre stations.

You make a decent point, but this 'long journey time' from the Parkway station myth is growing.

Birmingham Interchange is very likely to have absolutely no non-originating passengers (ie anyone leaving trains there will be on their return journey).
 
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You make a decent point, but this 'long journey time' from the Parkway station myth is growing.

Birmingham Interchange is very likely to have absolutely no non-originating passengers (ie anyone leaving trains there will be on their return journey).

It's like the premium fare myth.

Will Birmingham Interchange/International/Intercontinental/Interplanetary be no good for incoming NEC traffic etc?
 
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It's like the premium fare myth.

Will Birmingham Interchange/International/Intercontinental/Interplanetary be no good for incoming NEC traffic etc?

No. It's not in easy walking distance and the 'people mover' whatever that is supposed to be is unlikely to be able to move many people at a time (the current fenicular to the airport is very low capacity). At least there are now plans for direct services to the north - previously the only calls were on Birmingham services:roll:
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I think that you are right here - there's a lot of "civic pride" being seen as people argue that their place justifies a central station. HS2 is going to be somewhere between Intercity trains and Airports - people seem to use those in large number - we also need to consider that in twenty years time the city centres of today will be very different.

As usual, you have neatly summed up this matter very well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a really rural alternative there was Copgrove Station on the Knaresbro' to Boroughbridge line. That station was actually on the edge of Staveley and if you look carefully on Google Maps you'll see an old stone railway overbridge south west of the station area. It's a feature because all the embankments either side have been levelled and the bridge sits on its own at the edge of a field, the farm track underneath having disappeared too.A magical part of the world.

You most certainly bring back memories of my extreme youthful days here, as we had family friends living in Moor End in the Staveley area up to the mid-1960's. There was still goods traffic using the line through Copgrove railway station until 1964, but unfortunately the passenger services had ceased much earlier in 1950, when I was the tender age of five years of age. The station building at Copgrove was quite a substantial edifice. I always tend to think of that line as being the old North Eastern Railway line from Pilmoor to Knaresborough.
 
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Small world Paul.
There's an excellent book called 'The Pilmoor Boroughbridge and Knaresborough Railway' by Patrick Howat published by Martin Bairstow in 1991. RRP is £6.95 but the only two available via Amazon are at a rip off price of £20 and £33. You should be able to find it at a better price with a comprehensive search. I'm sure you'd enjoy it.
For a line that closed nearly 50 years ago there are lots of bits and pieces to spot in the area. Bridge abutments abound at roadsides and Copgrove Station is a private residence. The woodyard where the trackbed crosses Farnham Lane, Ferrensby has its own sad story, Boroughbridge Yard is a trading estate and you can still see the point where the branch turned off north west as the train pulls out of Knaresborough, after the short tunnel under the High Street.
 

JohnB57

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Rather belated answer - research done on long distance travel (ie Manchester to London and south east etc) found that around 20-25% of passengers in provincial cities walked to and from the station.

Parkway stations are fine for trips from provinces to London eg from East Midlands to London - but virtually no-one will use for business purposes traveling from London northwards. Who is going to travel first class from London to Totton then change to a tram or local dmu for a 20-30 min ride to Nottingham or Derby city centre. How many people travel from London to East Midlands or Warwick Parkway and back - the trips are virtually all the other way.
The highlighted section kind of gets to my point. What is the actual need for business travel to the centres of the cities mentioned. In Nottingham's case, anyone needing to visit, say, Boots would need a taxi transfer from the centre. The same with RR in Derby.

...around 20-25% of passengers in provincial cities walked to and from the station
That's quite a small proportion, don't you think? It infers that if we opted for city centre HS stations, we'd potentially be slowing down the onward journeys of seventy five people out of every hundred and incurring huge additional cost to boot.
 

HSTEd

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That does ignore that many journeys to stations in "provincial" cities are made by bus, especially places like Nottingham that still have functioning bus systems.

Bus routes tend to be slow, so moving from city centre to parkway stations doesn't neccesarily help that much as you then make half the city use radial bus routes which are even longer than the ones to the city centre to reach you.

Also it would appear that a Newcastle York line would only need ~9tph to have the same price per mile for passengers as HS2 Phase 1 simply because it is so much cheaper to build.
 

JohnB57

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Bus routes tend to be slow, so moving from city centre to parkway stations doesn't neccesarily help that much as you then make half the city use radial bus routes which are even longer than the ones to the city centre to reach you.
But nobody's suggesting that we "move" stations from city centres to parkway locations are they? In twenty/thirty/forty years time, you'll still be able to travel into and between the same city centres that you can now.
 

LE Greys

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But nobody's suggesting that we "move" stations from city centres to parkway locations are they? In twenty/thirty/forty years time, you'll still be able to travel into and between the same city centres that you can now.

Depending on what happens to those stations and the trains serving them in the mean time. Remember, they may have undergone two decades of competition with HS2, and complete competitors cannot coexist, so they will have had to adapt to their new market to survive. This new market is unlikely to include many London passengers, who will be travelling on HS2 instead (for somewhere like Nottingham, assume 50% transfer to HS2). Therefore, the market will be dominated by non-London traffic.

In Nottingham Midland, that most likely means a mixture of EMUs and DMUs from most of the places they come from today, including semi-fasts from London. Frequencies may have changed, probably meaning that local traffic will have increased (hopefully) and London traffic stayed the same, perhaps with shorter trains, but definitely uniform stock to cut costs. A rough parallel might be Manchester Victoria, which also has a plethora of local trains, suburban trains and regional expresses, although its not exact because Victoria has no London service. Whether it deteriorates to the conditions that Victoria reached a few years ago remains to be seen, but I'd say there is a risk it might if its seen as a low priority. Proper maintenance and some refurbishment should prevent it from happening, but its important that people don't forget Midland during the adjustment to the new line.
 

corin paul

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Great U.K. got HS2 to give use "civic pride" as one said. But at the end of the day it will not get some one in Cleethorpes to London any quicker then 2h50. I went to Paris in 2011 on TPE to Doncaster then London KX walk St. Pancras next stop Gare du Nord, Paris quick. But return journey was done in 5h01m now that was good enough for me. And don't think poeple in Norwich are jumping up say "Yes, we got HS2 coming." along with Cornwall and alot of other places.

Sorry, waste of Money.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/class_153/6105499964/in/set-72157629098212287/
http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=1364021497000
 

JohnB57

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Depending on what happens to those stations and the trains serving them in the mean time. Remember, they may have undergone two decades of competition with HS2, and complete competitors cannot coexist, so they will have had to adapt to their new market to survive. This new market is unlikely to include many London passengers, who will be travelling on HS2 instead (for somewhere like Nottingham, assume 50% transfer to HS2). Therefore, the market will be dominated by non-London traffic.

Proper maintenance and some refurbishment should prevent it from happening, but its important that people don't forget Midland during the adjustment to the new line.
My suspicion is that any focus on the railway will act as a stimulous for all parts of it and Midland will thrive. Basically though, I don't see classic versus HS as mutually competitive in the way you do - I see it as a happy symbiosis. My doubts about HS2 - and I'm still agnostic - is based on the disinformation and in my opinion flawed BCR driving its justification. I'm uneasy about the process resulting in the wrong railway, even though I'm a committed supporter of rail investment.

Great U.K. got HS2 to give use "civic pride" as one said. But at the end of the day it will not get some one in Cleethorpes to London any quicker then 2h50. I went to Paris in 2011 on TPE to Doncaster then London KX walk St. Pancras next stop Gare du Nord, Paris quick. But return journey was done in 5h01m now that was good enough for me. And don't think poeple in Norwich are jumping up say "Yes, we got HS2 coming." along with Cornwall and alot of other places.

Sorry, waste of Money.
And my home town of Huddersfield will still have no direct service to the capital either. Some will win, others will hardly notice...
 

tbtc

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The highlighted section kind of gets to my point. What is the actual need for business travel to the centres of the cities mentioned. In Nottingham's case, anyone needing to visit, say, Boots would need a taxi transfer from the centre. The same with RR in Derby

Any "business" traveller coming to Sheffield may be as likely to be heading to the Advanced Manufacturing Park (by Catcliffe/ Sheffield Parkway) or the remaining steel manufacturers in the Lower Don Valley between Sheffield and Rotherham (e.g. Forgemasters - the firm that the Coalition didn't honour a loan to). Those would be served by a HS2 station at Meadowhall fairly well, I think.

Great U.K. got HS2 to give use "civic pride" as one said. But at the end of the day it will not get some one in Cleethorpes to London any quicker then 2h50. I went to Paris in 2011 on TPE to Doncaster then London KX walk St. Pancras next stop Gare du Nord, Paris quick. But return journey was done in 5h01m now that was good enough for me. And don't think poeple in Norwich are jumping up say "Yes, we got HS2 coming." along with Cornwall and alot of other places.

Sorry, waste of Money

Waste of money because it doesn't serve Cleethorpes and Cornwall?

Cleethorpes is the kind of place that may benefit from the spare capacity on "Classic" lines - since the paths on the ECML currently taken up by Leeds/ Newcastle/ Edinburgh services are freed up - you could see the departure board at Kings Cross showing services to Lincoln, Cleethorpes, Hull etc in the future instead (since Peterborough/ Grantham/ Newark etc will still need served).

That's assuming that the line through Staniforth is re-opened by 2032 of course :lol:
 

brianthegiant

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In Nottingham's case, anyone needing to visit, say, Boots would need a taxi transfer from the centre. The same with RR in Derby.
This is a good point, the two largest employers in Nottingham are probably Boots and the University, both are only slightly closer to Nottingham Midland station than to 'Toton Interchange', so Toton probly has faster journey time (less traffic lights).

After Boots & the Uni, probably the council, Experian & Nottingham Trent Uni would be next largest employers, both are a lot closer to the City Centre except NTU Clifton campus halfway between NOT & EMD.
 

Sapphire Blue

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Great U.K. got HS2 to give use "civic pride" as one said. But at the end of the day it will not get some one in Cleethorpes to London any quicker then 2h50. I went to Paris in 2011 on TPE to Doncaster then London KX walk St. Pancras next stop Gare du Nord, Paris quick. But return journey was done in 5h01m now that was good enough for me. And don't think poeple in Norwich are jumping up say "Yes, we got HS2 coming." along with Cornwall and alot of other places.

Sorry, waste of Money.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/class_153/6105499964/in/set-72157629098212287/
http://railphotoarchive.org/rpc_zoom.php?img=1364021497000

In my home town, also Huddersfield, I think that coastal defences are a waste of money. (Clearly tongue in cheek but I am sure you get my drift)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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In my home town, also Huddersfield, I think that coastal defences are a waste of money. (Clearly tongue in cheek but I am sure you get my drift)

This brings back memories to me of a posting made near the end of 2011 made by a young forum member who said:-
"Tavistock to Okehampton is a step too far to be considered for line reopening and there would be the matter of the sea-wall to be considered"

I remember making a kindly-meant reply stating that it had been quite a number of years stretching back in geological times when the sea was last seen lapping at the edges of either Tavistock or Okehampton...:D
 

HSTEd

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Someone mentioned Cornwall.... there is a reason why a high speed line to the South West might be useful.... it would bring most of Devon and Eastern Cornwall into the commuter belt with ~1hr journey times to London, and put the rest of cornwall on the fringes of said belt.

This would be good because it would either allow people to live in the holiday homes they already own for the full year and simply commute into London (Where most of those people work anyway) and thus free houses where they used to live for someone else, or it would sufficiently alter the character of the area such that the traditional holiday home buyers are no longer attracted to it as it is no longer sufficiently quaint.

There would also be the potential for daytrips from London to Cornwall.... which is frankly a gamechanger.
 

LE Greys

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Someone mentioned Cornwall.... there is a reason why a high speed line to the South West might be useful.... it would bring most of Devon and Eastern Cornwall into the commuter belt with ~1hr journey times to London, and put the rest of cornwall on the fringes of said belt.

This would be good because it would either allow people to live in the holiday homes they already own for the full year and simply commute into London (Where most of those people work anyway) and thus free houses where they used to live for someone else, or it would sufficiently alter the character of the area such that the traditional holiday home buyers are no longer attracted to it as it is no longer sufficiently quaint.

There would also be the potential for daytrips from London to Cornwall.... which is frankly a gamechanger.

I'd certainly support that. The 5hr expresses from Penzance to London are a bit of a problem, but simply unavoidable because of the nature of the route with all its curves and gradients. Assuming that HS-GW (or whatever it's called) runs via Bristol to cover South Wales, then down to Plymouth, that should put Plymouth within two hours of London, possibly less than that. First Group ran the idea about ten years ago and put out a press release, not that much has been heard of since (http://web.archive.org/web/20041026081304/www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/news/release.php?item=29).

I would hope that something such as this doubles traffic to London, and hopefully puts the Newquay flights out of business. However, it would depend on a lot of improvements to the existing line beyond Saltash, and possibly a second bridge, since the current one is (A) single-track and (B) restricted to 15 mph. The chances of a new line in Cornwall itself are probably minimal.
 

HSTEd

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If you operate with a stop at Heathrow, Reading and Bristol Parkway Wast (I propose a station in the middle of that giant diamond junction thing with split immediately to the west with the Cornwall line curving away in a tunnel) only, you could easily manage 90 minutes, it is only 340km via Bristol if you go directly from Bristol to Plymouth in a straight line.

You could possibly even add a third stop at either Tiverton (or Taunton) Parkway/Exeter and stay under 90 minutes.

As to building a line in Cornwall itself, many people would balk at the cost, but without it journey times to Cornwall don't really drop that much.

Do we want the beaches of Western Cornwall to be day trip destinations for London (with all the attendant benefits, including being able to shed the expensive to operate Sleeper services) or don't we?

EDIT:

If we assume my Option 'W' capacity enhancement on HS2 as the base, we have 18tph at London Paddington of which 8 will support the primary north-south High speed network.
This leaves us ten paths to play with:
I propose deploying them as:

1tph Hereford/Great Malven (leaving the HS network at Oxford, possibly dividing if this is required by the timetable to allow a second 200m unit to proceed to a secondary destination on the north-south network).
2tph Bristol via Bath (I propose 400m Classic Compatibles on this route) leaving the network at a slip line somewhere north of Chippenham)
2tph South Wales via Bristol Pkwy with a new Severn rail directly east of Bristol Airport.
2tph Bristol via Bristol Pkwy (using the Pkwy-Temple Meads line which will be captive cleared).
2tph South West via Bristol Pkwy (using said tunnel I mentioned).
1tph Spare.

This requires captive clearing on relatively little line (Bristol Pkwy-Bristol Temple Meads) and would allow the remaining destinations currently served by Great Western (chiefly, stations to Cheltenham and Westbury) to be served over the now rather emptier fast lines out of Paddington, alongside some sort of expanded outer commuter service for the THames valley.
Platform extensions to 400m at Cheltenham are likely to be extremely trivial, while at Bath the platforms could be extended to 400m alon the viaduct/bridges without major property acquistions other than car parking space and already public land (appears to be a road central divider or somesuch).

Bristol could have its platforms extended towards the south if the southern road bridge is replaced.... which isn't going to break the bank.

The high speed line would have a triangle east of reading, have an Ashford style station at Reading and then proceed towards Bristol, with a Parkway possibly being added near Swindon before the divergence of the Bath Spa slip line (this would be served entirely by Cross Country services from Oxford though).

The paths to Oxford would be provided by local services as now or by the 8tph that will be sent through the station, as well as the 1tph Classic Compatible that will divide there.


2tph to the South West would give us a lot of opportunities (especially if we add in 2tph "XC" services, 1 from each leg of the main network, presumably formed of coupled CC sets from various places for transit along the crowded Leeds-Birmingham axis).

We could call at multiple parkway stations and then have 1tp2h terminating at multiple places in Cornwall. (I do note that the Atlantic Coast Line has no real tunnels and only a handful of height restricting overbridges, almost all of them in rural areas where cheap humpbacks are acceptable, and that if it was cleared we can have captive sets terminating in Newquay, and all the intermediate stations are also cheap to extend). Therefore I recommend constructing GC cleared structures all the way to Penzance by one means or another.

It would be expensive.... but I think it is worth it because it completely transforms an entire side of the country that seems rather transport poor and which has so much potential.

(unfortunatley only having 9 paths for non through-Oxford routes is annoying but that could be solved if capacity really warranted it by another line, my Option 'M' from the main thread, which would reduce the neccesary Oxford-route paths to however many trains Oxford needs).
 
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Haydn1971

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I'm finding this quite funny - the thread is bulking at the cost of putting a station in the city centre of one of the biggest cities in England, at a cost of an extra billion, which will service the wealthiest ward outside SE England (Sheffield Hallam) yet here we are talking about throwing probably £20 billion at a line to get people to Cornwall at the weekend.

Slaps forehead !

Oddly, I'm in the first class lounge this morning at Sheffield, the papers have just arrived and I've got a large choice of the Daily Telegraph and the Financial Times, several copies of each, plus a couple of Independents and a tatty read Metro. Kinda demonstrates who travels to London Village daily
 
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Francis

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Indeed, linking into the existing cross-country lines north of Burm would be counter-productive. What would be needed would be a link around New Street that would allow trains from HS from Leeds/Newcastle or Manc/Glasgow to run through to Bristol without stopping at Brum.


Is there an underused or unused alignment handy, that anyone here knows of?

Missing out the second biggest city in England? Doesn't make sense. Put in a connection at Water Orton or Saltley and run them through New St
 
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Missing out the second biggest city in England? Doesn't make sense. Put in a connection at Water Orton or Saltley and run them through New St

New Street the only station in the UK where I've never entered from any direction without the train stopping beforehand on approach. That's high speed (not).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oddly, I'm in the first class lounge this morning at Sheffield, the papers have just arrived and I've got a large choice of the Daily Telegraph and the Financial Times, several copies of each, plus a couple of Independents and a tatty read Metro. Kinda demonstrates who travels to London Village daily

H, are you going round your carriage this morning surveying your fellow passengers about a central Sheffield HS2 station? :)
 

JohnB57

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I'm finding this quite funny - the thread is bulking at the cost of putting a station in the city centre of one of the biggest cities in England, at a cost of an extra billion, which will service the wealthiest ward outside SE England (Sheffield Hallam) yet here we are talking about throwing probably £20 billion at a line to get people to Cornwall at the weekend.
For the record Haydn, some are baulking at the cost of a central station, some want it whatever the cost and others, like me, think it's the wrong solution at any cost.
 

Haydn1971

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For the record Haydn, some are baulking at the cost of a central station, some want it whatever the cost and others, like me, think it's the wrong solution at any cost.

I'm mixed too John - I'd like a full debate on the issue though, a parkway station suits people going from Sheffield to other places, but I'm not so sure it serves business users visiting the city.

The big appeal of Meadowhall is the scope for growth around the station, ample space for parking, complamentory infrastructure, even room to widen the M1 both sides of the viaduct is the currently proposed four lanes proves insufficient.

The ease at which other measures can be added is great, I can imagine large scale mixed use development within a mile of the new station, people movers into Meadowhall, a rejuvenated Sheffield Arena... Exciting times ahead. A city centre station will however be stiffled by historic boundaries, oddball listed buildings, long walks to the city centre... I like the idea of a city centre station, but is it right.... I don't know for sure.
 

Geezertronic

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Missing out the second biggest city in England? Doesn't make sense. Put in a connection at Water Orton or Saltley and run them through New St

New Street probably wouldn't have the capacity to accommodate the extra services generated by this (presuming this would generate extra services) given the fact that extra lines cannot be installed at the southern end of the station (not sure about the northern end). I assume you'd also come across issues if the length of the trains was longer than an 11 car 390 which I assume is the maximum length New Street can handle.

I assume you'd also have issues running these into Moor Street/Snow Hill for similar reasons.

The only way I could see of doing this would be to run the services into the new HS station with a reversal back out (provided there is the capacity built in there of course).
 
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