Are the SW Valleys EVER going to get BRAND NEW trains?

[Cardiff123]

So, as the title asks, are the Cardiff local & South Wales Valley line routes EVER going to get BRAND NEW trains?

As someone who has to commute regularly between Cardiff and Barry on the train, I was cautiously optimistic last year when the electrification plans for South Wales were announced. Politicians and rail analysts were triumphantly announcing on the Welsh regional news that the south Wales valley lines were going to get NEW trains to replace our current ‘ageing diesel locomotives’. I was hopeful that finally I might be able to travel on trains that are fit for the 21st century, rather than the knackered pacers and noisy 150s that I currently have to bear with 5 days a week.

May optimism disappeared recently though, when I discovered that FULL electrification might not be complete until 2024 (so that’s a definite then), and even then, we’ll be getting second hand, mid-1970s built refurbished Class 313 trains, that by the time they reach south Wales, will already be 45 – 50 years old, older than our current mid-1980s built DMU’s!!!!!!!!!!!

Even though I really can’t afford it, this makes me seriously want to look at owning a car. Surely the money being spent on electrification would be better spent on ordering brand new 4 – 6 car DMUs for the South Wales commuter lines. I’d much rather travel on brand new DMUs, than 50 year old cast off EMU stock.

Also, there’s currently improvement work taking place in & around Cardiff that will apparently provide more frequent trains and more capacity on the valley lines by 2015. How exactly are ATW going to deliver this without any extra rolling stock coming their way before then? Platforms on the Penarth - Rhymney line can already accommodate 6 cars, but ATW are constantly tweeting that “all of our trains are currently being used to their full capacity” when customers complain about overcrowding.

As long as Thameslink are getting their shiny brand new trains, that’s all that matters though right? :-x

 

[455driver]

So new is always better than old but refurbished is it?

Given the fact that I would rather travel on a 1970s vintage HST over any of the modern trains I would disagree.

A good refurb can make a train appear brand new (just look at what MerseyRail did with the 507 and 508s a few years ago).
The perception can be better than the truth sometimes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As long as Thameslink are getting their shiny brand new trains, that’s all that matters though right? :-x

How many people will use Thameslink 2000 in a peak hour compared to the Welsh Valleys in a whole day?

 

[YorkshireBear]

So, as the title asks, are the Cardiff local & South Wales Valley line routes EVER going to get BRAND NEW trains?

As someone who has to commute regularly between Cardiff and Barry on the train, I was cautiously optimistic last year when the electrification plans for South Wales were announced. Politicians and rail analysts were triumphantly announcing on the Welsh regional news that the south Wales valley lines were going to get NEW trains to replace our current ‘ageing diesel locomotives’. I was hopeful that finally I might be able to travel on trains that are fit for the 21st century, rather than the knackered pacers and noisy 150s that I currently have to bear with 5 days a week.

May optimism disappeared recently though, when I discovered that FULL electrification might not be complete until 2024 (so that’s a definite then), and even then, we’ll be getting second hand, mid-1970s built refurbished Class 313 trains, that by the time they reach south Wales, will already be 45 – 50 years old, older than our current mid-1980s built DMU’s!!!!!!!!!!!

Even though I really can’t afford it, this makes me seriously want to look at owning a car. Surely the money being spent on electrification would be better spent on ordering brand new 4 – 6 car DMUs for the South Wales commuter lines. I’d much rather travel on brand new DMUs, than 50 year old cast off EMU stock.

Also, there’s currently improvement work taking place in & around Cardiff that will apparently provide more frequent trains and more capacity on the valley lines by 2015. How exactly are ATW going to deliver this without any extra rolling stock coming their way before then? Platforms on the Penarth - Rhymney line can already accommodate 6 cars, but ATW are constantly tweeting that “all of our trains are currently being used to their full capacity” when customers complain about overcrowding.

As long as Thameslink are getting their shiny brand new trains, that’s all that matters though right? :-x

Welcome to the forum.

Right firstly, lets compare central London to South Wales. Which has more railway passengers? Which needs 12 car trains at 24 trains per hour? London, existing trains cannot do that so new ones are needed. End of. They are not shiny they are just far more advance technologically so that they can operate what is required of them.

have you ever ridden a 313? It is miles ahead in terms of performance, reliability and comfort compared to the pacers and 150s. Despite being older. Note that a HST is older than a pacer yet these are considered the BEST the country has to offer? London is the economic power house of this country therefore it deserves more investment. Do not use age as a reason for something being bad, just because it is old does not mean it is bad! The units that come your way will be fully refurbished before doing so and will almost feel like brand new trains.

Without new stock for thameslink the valleys would not be electrified, the entire case for NW and valleys electrification is that thameslink and crossrail are going to release lots of EMUs that are not yet life expired. So without new stock there is no electrification and you are stuck with pacers and 150s for a very long time.

New DMUs can't really be ordered. People do not want to fund them, there is currently no engines i believe for DMUs that meet EU regulations. This is also why there is such a good case for electrification. The capacity network rail are putting in will be used once electrification happens don't worry about that but until then you are stuck, may i note like quite a lot of the country such as Bristol, and the entire North and Midlands and infact parts of London.

Why would it be better to spend it on DMUs? When the oil runs out what will power them? Creating a sustainable infrastructure for future generations is far more important than ordering some DMUs for short term benefit. An attitude of DMUs rather than electrification has led us to the situation we are in now.

2024 yep that is probably how long you will have to wait. Look at the HLOS maps of what Network Rail have to electrify and then tell me you are surprised you will have to wait this long... government has given them a lot to do!

Any more questions fire them my way.

 

[tom1649]

I agree. Just because something is old doesn't mean it can't be fit for purpose.

 

[jopsuk]

Other than enthusiast wibble, has anyone seriously suggested 313s or 315s for Wales? As in, in official documents?

 

[tom1649]

Other than enthusiast wibble, has anyone seriously suggested 313s or 315s for Wales? As in, in official documents?

It is mentioned in this ATOC document.

 

[Requeststop]

Having just done the lines from Bridgend to Merthyr/Barry/Penarth to Cardiff QS, I'd say the trains are OK. But also having done the lines from Cardiff QS to Treherbert/Merthyr/Aberdare, I'd say the rolling stock really needs a chandge both in ride quality and also concerning the coach availability of the Valley lines stock.

On the flat the stock is fine: Climbing up the valleys...... much better faciities are required.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Other than enthusiast wibble, has anyone seriously suggested 313s or 315s for Wales? As in, in official documents?

Yes, in NR documents it is presumed a 313 unit (or similar) will be used. They will have picked up on this i imagine. Although id doesn't say 313s will be used that doesn't mean journalists have reported the truth now does it...

 

[jopsuk]

It is mentioned in this ATOC document.

The same paragraph suggests new stock for Wales- up to Franchisee (or potentially, WAG)

 

[tbtc]

Hope it doesn't annoy certain people that I'm commenting on a Welsh thread

are the Cardiff local & South Wales Valley line routes EVER going to get BRAND NEW trains?

Three things...

Firstly, the Wales & Borders TOC requires the largest subsidy (per passenger mile) of any British TOC.

Secondly, many lines have been electrified with old stock. The Airedale/ Wharfdale lines in Yorkshire (electrified twenty years ago) got 1950s 308s. The North Berwick branch (electrified at the same time) got 1950s 304s. The most recent electrification of anysignificant length (Bathgate line) generally gets 1990s 334s (not seen the Paisley Canal line since the wires went up on the western couple of miles).

In a lot of cases, the cascaded EMUs are allowed to justify the short-term cost of electrification - the lines later justify younger/ new trains (1990s 322s on the North Berwick route, brand new 333s on the Airedale/ Wharfdale).

Thirdly, the fact that a large number of "London area" EMUs are going to be replaced in the next decade (due to Thameslink, Crossrail etc) is one of the reasons for all of the electrification.

May optimism disappeared recently though, when I discovered that FULL electrification might not be complete until 2024

I thought it was scheduled for CP5 (i.e. until 2019)?

50 year old cast off EMU stock

As long as Thameslink are getting their shiny brand new trains, that’s all that matters though right? :-x

The Thameslink route is the only one in the UK that turns a genuine profit IIRC (?).Being bitter about investment on this busy route doesn't help your cause.

Wales & Borders - 846.1 million passengers a year
FCC- 3212.3 million passengers a year (despite serving around half as many stations)

 

[asylumxl]

You should consider asking the WAG/Arriva if they would be willing to fund new trains for your service. Provided everyone in the area is fine with the tax hike and massive fare rises then you'll be laughing! Somewhere near the cost of a similar distance commute to London should do for the fares.

Oh no wait...

 

[455driver]

Plus if you have any (important) members of the Welsh assembly needing to travel they might even provide loco hauled trains with a full meal service!

 

[Flamingo]

There is no point in putting new trains on the Valleys lines, they will only get trashed, and as has been said, to fund them realistic fare will have to be charged.

 

[tbtc]

You should consider asking the WAG/Arriva if they would be willing to fund new trains for your service. Provided everyone in the area is fine with the tax hike and massive fare rises then you'll be laughing! Somewhere near the cost of a similar distance commute to London should do for the fares.

Oh no wait...

Well, many at the WAG want greater financial autonomy... will they change their tune when they are faced with around £2,000,000 per EMU coach (for maybe forty 3 coach units) coming out of their budget?

 

[Cardiff123]

My main point was that aside from passenger numbers, London & the SE/East Anglia commuter routes always seem to get the investment when it comes to brand new rolling stock.
I'm not just talking about Wales losing out in terms of new stock here, there are the English regions that have to put up with second hand stock as well.

With the environmental message constantly being forced upon us, I would've thought that every effort would be being made to get people out of their cars and onto the trains. Knackered old screeching 142s and 143s turning up to take your to your destination doesn't help this case.

To those posters who are saying that London has the most commuters etc, yes, that's true. But just because London has more commuters, this doesn't mean it should get ALL of the investement. Being on a 2 car pacer from Cardiff to Barry at peak time is like being stuck in a cattle truck with no room to breathe. How they expect the current stock on the welsh valleys to keep going until possibly 2024 is beyond me.

 

[tom1649]

With the environmental message constantly being forced upon us, I would've thought that every effort would be being made to get people out of their cars and onto the trains. Knackered old screeching 142s and 143s turning up to take your to your destination doesn't help this case.

If the 313s and 315s make it to South Wales at least they won't screech and you'll have a far more comfortable ride as they have proper bogies unlike the 4 wheeled Pacer vehicles.

Whatever happens you'll be losing your 142s and 143s, while other parts of the UK might not be so lucky.

 

[tbtc]

My main point was that aside from passenger numbers, London & the SE/East Anglia commuter routes always seem to get the investment when it comes to brand new rolling stock.
I'm not just talking about Wales losing out in terms of new stock here, there are the English regions that have to put up with second hand stock as well

The oldest stock in the country is the 313s that run around London - 315s are no spring chickens either - don't believe that they only have the best of everything (check the age of some London Underground stock too)

With the environmental message constantly being forced upon us, I would've thought that every effort would be being made to get people out of their cars and onto the trains

Yes, effort is being made - spending millions electrifying your local route so that you'll have longer trains able to do the journey faster!

To those posters who are saying that London has the most commuters etc, yes, that's true. But just because London has more commuters, this doesn't mean it should get ALL of the investement

It's not getting all of the investment - the Valley Lines are getting their chunk too - in fact Wales's share of the CP5 electrification is rather high

Being on a 2 car pacer from Cardiff to Barry at peak time is like being stuck in a cattle truck with no room to breathe. How they expect the current stock on the welsh valleys to keep going until possibly 2024 is beyond me.

Again, not sure about your 2024 date.

But at least your local line is getting rid of its Pacers and will get longer faster services. My local lines have Pacers on them and will do for the foreseeable future. The only thing we have to look forward to is some services being lengthened by inheriting cascaded Pacers from the Valley lines

 

[anthony263]

The original idea is that the class 315's displaced from Greater Anglia by crossrail will be making their way to the south wales valley and indead a few have been refurbished to meet the post 2020 DDA regulations.

That said a 4 carriage 315 will not be able to fit the platforms on the Cardiff Valley lines network the exception being those along the lines to Rhymney & Treherbert. Platform 0 at Bridgend I doubt will be able to accomodate a 4 carriage class 315 so I think the units will have to be reduced to 3 carriage units.

This is where the suggestion of using the class 313's comes from.

The lines to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale should be electrified during 2017-2018 which is when the wires should reach Swansea. ATW are refurbishing the class 150's so if they are really looked after I can't see them not lasting til 2024.

The class 150's do seem to be the main workhorse of ATW with them covering when there is problems with other stock and a number will need to be retained after 2020 for use on the lines west of Swansea and the services along the heart of wales line.

I think Network Rail are aiming to get the Valley Lines wired by 2019 but with all the recent schemes I think they are covering their backs if there are any delays. That said I have wondered how they are going to manage to wire all these lines especially when only 1 HOOP train has been oredered so far perhaps a 2nd such train should be ordered especially with all the potential electrification projects in the future.

Finally I think the class 315's or whatever used emu's we get could be good for the Cardiff Valley Lines if they are given a good refurbishment and overhaul

(Certainly the class 315's could do with cleaning up from the state I have seen a number of them are in when I have visited London)

Hopefully we will see new emu's in the future like the situation in Yorkshire when they got given old slam door emu's before new class 333 emu's were ordered.

 

[455driver]

Some of the London TOCs are the only ones that actually take enough money to make a profit, if your Valley line services made a profit then the Cost/ Benefit ratio would allow new trains, you dont so cant afford them.

I would love a new car and if I had the money I would get one, but I cant afford it, just like Wales cant afford new trains.

 

[YorkshireBear]

My main point was that aside from passenger numbers, London & the SE/East Anglia commuter routes always seem to get the investment when it comes to brand new rolling stock.
I'm not just talking about Wales losing out in terms of new stock here, there are the English regions that have to put up with second hand stock as well.

With the environmental message constantly being forced upon us, I would've thought that every effort would be being made to get people out of their cars and onto the trains. Knackered old screeching 142s and 143s turning up to take your to your destination doesn't help this case.

To those posters who are saying that London has the most commuters etc, yes, that's true. But just because London has more commuters, this doesn't mean it should get ALL of the investement. Being on a 2 car pacer from Cardiff to Barry at peak time is like being stuck in a cattle truck with no room to breathe. How they expect the current stock on the welsh valleys to keep going until possibly 2024 is beyond me.

Yeah i know, my region does too. But the investment is coming and i am happy to wait for it so that it is done properly, not done cheaply and quickly and offering no long term benefits. Like buying DMUs would.

Yes your right, but the best way to do this is to electrify and use second hand stock. Why get rid of old units when they can be re-used. (Reuse Reduce Recyle) These units will be far superior to the ones you use now so why complain about them?

Sorry, but to your last point. London isn't getting all the investment, with all due respect if they were would you be having any electrification. There is huge investment going on outside London. GWML, MML, TPE, NW all being electrified. Northern Hub, South Wales capacity upgrades i could go on. All investment is not in London, the other problem is it costs twice (or more) as much to do something in London so you have to spend the extra money.

London has LOTS of old stock lots of old stock it isnt all new and shiny. TPE got new units, as did London Midland, Cross Country and to an extent Arriva have new units in the 175s (second hand but only by like a year).

All the electrification will not take till 2024, some will come much earlier freeing up DMUs to support services on routes that are not yet electrified.

Just as a further point here is what Network Rail are doing in Wales over the next 10 years.

Modernising signalling

Network Rail is currently re-signalling the railway in south Wales. This work is being carried out in stages. The first two phases in the Newport area have been completed, with the third stage scheduled for 2017.
We will be working to renew the signalling in the Cardiff area until 2015. Alongside the re-signalling scheme is a project to boost capacity on the Valleys network with new platforms at Cardiff Central, Cardiff Queen Street, Caerphilly, Barry, Tir-phil and Pontypridd. The south-side entrance at Cardiff Central and the main entrance at Cardiff Queen Street will also be improved.
The re-signalling of the Swansea area will be delivered ahead of electrification.
Control of all signalling on the South Wales main line is being migrated into to the Rail Operating Centre in Cardiff.
This state-of-the-art facility will eventually control all signalling and train activity on the Wales route and contribute to an annual saving of £4.6m in signalling costs.
The signalling on the line from Newport to Shrewsbury will be renewed by 2017, with benefits for services from south Wales to Manchester and north Wales.
The line from Chester to Llandudno will be re-signalled in 2015. This will improve reliability and offers the potential to reduce journey times and increase capacity along North Wales.
Electrification

By December 2018, Network Rail plans to electrify the railway from Severn Tunnel to Swansea.
Electrification of the line between Swansea and London Paddington will pave the way for new electric trains, which have more seats than the current diesel trains of the same length and are able to accelerate and brake more quickly, speeding up journey times to London.
We will also be starting work to electrify the Cardiff and Valleys network, with work scheduled for completion in early control period 6 (2019 – 2024). Electrification of the Valleys network builds on the current £220m Cardiff area re-signalling project and will allow faster, more frequent and more reliable journeys.
Electric trains are cheaper to operate, require less maintenance and have lower energy costs and carbon emissions than diesel trains. They are also lighter and do less damage to the track, helping to deliver a more reliable railway and reducing the need for track maintenance.

North – South Wales


The Welsh Government funded ‘North – South Wales Journey Improvement’ project will be completed by 2015.
Complementing this project are re-signalling works on the same route during CP5 (control period 5, 2014-19), as noted above. These works will seek to regularise speed profiles by removing existing infrastructure constraints and provide track and signalling layouts better suited to current and future needs and demands.
Other highlights include;

Major refurbishment of the metallic spans of the Grade 2 listed Barmouth Bridge.
Station improvements, including refurbishment of Holyhead station.
350 kms of track to be renewed or refurbished.
Renewing or refurbishing 480 sets of points.

Notice electrification comes in the early part of 2019 2024. It will be about 2020. That is just the control period to 2024 not when electrification will be finished. I imagine it will be completed by 2020, as that was the original plan. And remembering the presentation i went to on electrification the head of electrification for NR said early 2020 completion.

 

[Cardiff123]

That said a 4 carriage 315 will not be able to fit the platforms on the Cardiff Valley lines network the exception being those along the lines to Rhymney & Treherbert. Platform 0 at Bridgend I doubt will be able to accomodate a 4 carriage class 315 so I think the units will have to be reduced to 3 carriage units.

This is where the suggestion of using the class 313's comes from.

So as part of NR's current re-signalling & improvement program, why don't they also lengthen the rest of the platforms on the valley lines so that 4 carriage EMUs will fit on the network? That seems like common sense to me if the valleys network is to be truly future proofed. New platform end slabs were lined up along Barry station last week (presumably ready for the new bay platform?), so unless it's down to funds (of course), why they aren't also lengthening remaining stations to accommodate extra carriages whilst they're carrying out this work?

The lines to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale should be electrified during 2017-2018 which is when the wires should reach Swansea. ATW are refurbishing the class 150's so if they are really looked after I can't see them not lasting til 2024.

If the 'refurbishment' of 150213 is anything to go by, which I travelled on recently, then all ATW are doing to the 150 fleet is re-painting them on the outside. The inside of 150213 has been left untouched. Unless future refurbishment is to come?

 

[YorkshireBear]

So as part of NR's current re-signalling & improvement program, why don't they also lengthen the rest of the platforms on the valley lines so that 4 carriage EMUs will fit on the network? That seems like common sense to me if the valleys network is to be truly future proofed. New platform end slabs were lined up along Barry station last week (presumably ready for the new bay platform?), so unless it's down to funds (of course), why they aren't also lengthening remaining stations to accommodate extra carriages whilst they're carrying out this work?



If the 'refurbishment' of 150213 is anything to go by, which I travelled on recently, then all ATW are doing to the 150 fleet is re-painting them on the outside. The inside of 150213 has been left untouched. Unless future refurbishment is to come?

Lengthening platforms is not always possible it depends on the station, if one station can't be lengthened then they are unlikely to go to the cost of refurbishing all of them.

And i do no believe the full refurbishment of ATW 150s has started yet, they next refurb will be to make them DDA compliant and the definitely hasn't begun yet.

 

[asylumxl]

My main point was that aside from passenger numbers, London & the SE/East Anglia commuter routes always seem to get the investment when it comes to brand new rolling stock.
I'm not just talking about Wales losing out in terms of new stock here, there are the English regions that have to put up with second hand stock as well.

With the environmental message constantly being forced upon us, I would've thought that every effort would be being made to get people out of their cars and onto the trains. Knackered old screeching 142s and 143s turning up to take your to your destination doesn't help this case.

To those posters who are saying that London has the most commuters etc, yes, that's true. But just because London has more commuters, this doesn't mean it should get ALL of the investement. Being on a 2 car pacer from Cardiff to Barry at peak time is like being stuck in a cattle truck with no room to breathe. How they expect the current stock on the welsh valleys to keep going until possibly 2024 is beyond me.

You've totally ignored the fact commuters in to London pays higher fares. They also probably pay higher council tax etc when compared to South Wales. They pay a premium.

It's also worth considering that London had older stock up until a decade or so ago with the mass-withdrawal of slam door stock. There's still many older trains around the capital, particularly on LU. There are plans to replace these but they are a long way off still.

 

[ryan125hst]

Are the class 313's, 314's and 315's suitable for the Valleys? Unlike the Pacers, they don't have toilets. It's not so much of a problem in London, but in rural Wales, it could be a bit inconvienient, don't you think?

Would they install a DDA complient toilet on each train before they entered service?

 

[anthony263]

Are the class 313's, 314's and 315's suitable for the Valleys? Unlike the Pacers, they don't have toilets. It's not so much of a problem in London, but in rural Wales, it could be a bit inconvienient, don't you think?

Would they install a DDA complient toilet on each train before they entered service?

Yes I think the 315's will have to be fitted with toilets before they arrive in south wales. This can be done with the pep series of emu's as Network Rail are fitting their class 313 with a toilet.

I would like to hope that new larger seats are fitted to these emu's and that the interior is repainted certainly I can't stand the current interiors of the class 315's.

FCC have done a good job refurbishing their class 313's the same with Southern.

 

[455driver]

You will probably find that the complete interior is stripped out and completely replaced including fitting a proper wheel chair space including a compliant toilet.

The PEPs are still good for a few decades yet, you only have to look at what is being done to 317(722?) to see that.

 

[Bevan Price]

Are the class 313's, 314's and 315's suitable for the Valleys? Unlike the Pacers, they don't have toilets. It's not so much of a problem in London, but in rural Wales, it could be a bit inconvienient, don't you think?

Would they install a DDA complient toilet on each train before they entered service?

Liverpool to Southport or Chester is nearly as long as some Cardiff Valley journeys, and thie 507s and 508s have no toilets. 313s do some longer journeys on the South Coast without toilets. I am not suggesting lack of toilets is a good idea, but "they" might give South Wales trains without toilets.

 

[HSTEd]

One reason you may want to dump the fourth vehicle from the Cl315 formation is to allow them to match or beat Class 150 timings.

They should be able to match Pacer timings at 4 cars but they would only have 880hp.

A 4 car Class 150 formation has 1144hp.
Even accounting for transmission efficiencies and the train's hotel loads that sounds like it might mean a 4 car class 315 could not keep to the current journey times, let alone improve them.
A 3x20m train is still as long as a four car Pacer formation.

EDIT:

Oops, have just accounted for the marginally heavier nature of the Cl150 carriage.
That reduces the Class 150 p:w ratio value for the Cl315 to about 1005hp.
Which means they have at most 10% more power than the Cl315 so matching current timings should be easily possible.

And an 80m train would be as long as 5.16 pacer vehicles.
So a 3-car joined to a 2-car.

On every single service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

One reason you may want to dump the fourth vehicle from the Cl315 formation is to allow them to match or beat Class 150 timings.

They should be able to match Pacer timings at 4 cars but they would only have 880hp.

A 4 car Class 150 formation has 1144hp.
Even accounting for transmission efficiencies and the train's hotel loads that sounds like it might mean a 4 car class 315 could not keep to the current journey times, let alone improve them.

Less power but also less weight. Be interested to see if a 4 car 315 has the same power to weight ratio as a 150.

 

[HSTEd]

Less power but also less weight. Be interested to see if a 4 car 315 has the same power to weight ratio as a 150.

Not quite, but see above.
It comes out within ten percent once you account for the difference in vehicle weight.