Chiltern failure to tell passengers which platform.

[corfield]

I had a repetition of a very annoying instance with Chiltern last night and was wondering why they (and potentially others) seemed to have degeloped an obsession with not releasing platform numbers until the last minute.

Last night I travelled back from Marylebone to GX, and arrived a good 20 mins early for the 2248 service to Bicester.

I noticed that for the services prior (~4), the platform number would only appear about 2 to 4 minutes before its scheduled departure. Resulting in a crowd standing on the concourse and then a scrum at the gates and at the train as eveyone en-masse headed off. This is something I've noticed with the vast majority of trains from there.

Each service then vanishs off the information board about 90seconds prior to departure. This I can understand but you can probably see the scope for a complete cock up...

For the 2248, it vanished off the main board at ~2246:30 without any platform number ever having been put up.

This led to huge confusion in the crowd, seemingly all waiting for this train - and the bulk headed for the gates and on to the platforms, as did we, in the hope of enlightenment.

There was no station announcement, and no platform staff around to question. There was a Princes Risborough in P2 and I'd seen a 168 in P1 from when we arrived (and I'd made a bet with my wife it was our train!) so we walked up to the front and asked the driver (also noticing that it had Bicester on its destination blinds). He replied his was the 2248. Other people were doing likewise and he twigged something had gone wrong (not least that now over a 100 people were milling around on the platform and nobody had come to board his train) and then made repeated announcements on the trains PA that it was the 2248 - which with the doors open did alert some of the crowd who then crammed on.

It then left 3 mins late, still without the platform screens showing the service, or any station announcement. I am certain people were left behind thinking it had been cancelled or in confusion not wanting to get on without being sure.

Even as the train pulled out late, the Chilterns Live Trains App still had no platform number for the train - and had not had one prior as I'd been checking it hoping to get a steal on the crowd for my pregnant wife to finally sit down.

Further from the sheer incompetence of Chiltern on this occasion - why this obsession with not informing passengers where their train is ?

Surely that is a fundamental part of running a transport service ?

At Marylebone you can see the trains, see they haven't just come in, see they aren't being cleaned and this appears entirely a doctrine based decision rather than anything operational.

The train we got on had been where it was the entire time we had been standing in front of the displays. We could, if blessed with telepathy or some actual customer service, have boarded at any time.

Leaving giving the number to the last minute not only encourages cockups like that (by giving no regain time), it also leaves the old, infirm and those with children forced to stand on a concourse and then fight through a crowd, a congested gateline and onto a train. Predicatbly they are slower and fail to get a seat. Standing there scanning the board and knowing it is going to be a scrum is also stressfull.

Why the hell cant they just give the platform number out earlier, let those who bother to arrive early and those who need a seat have a chance to get one, and stop this stupid practice?

It never used to be the case at Marylebone but seems to have developed in the last 12 months or so and this is now the 3rd cockup in as many months - although at least I had ~60 secs of platform number warning in the others, in one case the doors closing behind me having left the concourse upon the number coming up and boarding via the first available doors ! And I walk quickly !

What are they trying to do? Prevent passengers using the service ? The trains are busy (standing) certainly out to GX, but not that busy.

Frankly its absolutely bloody infuriating. I live in a position to use either Chiltern or FGW (albeit slightly longer drive) but have resolved to sack off the former whenever possible, certainly for London.

I've always been keen on Chiltern, but ever since the "new" timetables and the screwed up service that seems to result from the desire to prioritise the-end-to-end traffic it has been going downhill, especially if you want an interim station.

Meanwhile, an off peak day return has gone up 25% in 3 years.

All in all, not particularly awesome.
Roll on re-franchising and let some other bugger have a go.

 

[TheEdge]

I've noticed this about and it infuriates me.

Some places do it with a reasonable length of time. I think at Liverpool Street its about 15 minutes before the number goes up and a fairly similar amount of time at Kings Cross. Bad news for the OP though, Paddington is the same, goes up at the last minute and scrum to the barriers...

 

[barrykas]

.....

 

[yorkie]

I agree it's worth sending a complaint. My experience with Customer Services departments is that they often fob you off, fail to understand the issue, and don't pass it on - so be prepared to forward any matters to Passenger Focus where this occurs.

Posting it here shouldn't replace a complaint, but sometimes I think it can have more of an impact, as depending on the Company, you may find that the issue is read by someone in a position to do something about it, but you can't always trust the Customer Services departments at some TOCs to do anything meaningful with the complaint (not having a go at Chiltern's Customer Services here, I am talking generally).

 

[corfield]

barrykas,

I assume you mean that the 2245 was on the same platform but leaving first (I appreciate they have to stack them up at Marylebone) and they didn't want the doors of the 2248 open in case those for the 2245 board the wrong train.

Either way, it makes it virtually impossible to get that train.

That is pretty shocking planning by anybody's standards.


I have sent in an email complaint, I didn't even get an automatic acknowledgement reply which is a pretty poor sign.


As I said, this lastminute.com approach seems to have become the norm at Marylebone over the last year and it's enough to have put me off using the place.

As I said, it's a pretty fundamental part of running a train line to actually tell the passengers where to get their trains from. Taking into account those with less than Olympic mobility it is very poor service.

The cynic in me says that they just don't care, after all, passengers waiting for a train will have bought tickets already, so it doesn't really matter if they are on the train. Had people not just swarmed onto the platform and the driver of the 2248 made an effort to inform people (and presumably waited hence departing late), that train would have left virtually empty, with a trainload of people still at Marylebone. How that can happen by design (in that nothing seemingly went wrong, it just fell apart as could have been predicted) is eye-watering.

I'm not a regular commuter, yet have had 1 case like this and 2 where I only just got on the train due to the short timings over 3 months - that a pretty high frequency of error and suggests there must be a lot of people missing trains.

Someone at Chiltern needs a kick up the arse - at the very least they need to look at their own timetable and identify where this might happen, and do something about it !

It's certainly emptied any support I had for Chiltern and any lingering feeling they were better than other TOCs.

 

[Chrisgr31]

A similar thing was happening at Victoria last Friday early in the confusion after the Three Bridges signalling incident.

As you came out the tube their was an announcement saying all trains are running well. Get to the Southern platforms to find various trains there but no indications of where they are going because they have been wiped off the information screens because they should have departed. They haven't departed because they had no signal. In the meantime the display was saying the next fastest train to East Croydon was departing Platform 16, but there was no train there at all! Trains departed fast to Clapham Junction from platforms 17, 18 and 19 before the one from Platform 16.

All designed to annoy the hell out of the passenger and make them rant and rave at the visible staff who of course are also at the mercy of the fools in charge.

 

[Biggus Tiggus]

The rot seems to have set in on Chiltern, from an operational standpoint, when Adrian Shooter left and Arriva started running the show, and you get the impression that the only thing holding it together is the goodwill of the front line staff.

 

[TDK]

The rot seems to have set in on Chiltern, from an operational standpoint, when Adrian Shooter left and Arriva started running the show, and you get the impression that the only thing holding it together is the goodwill of the front line staff.

Same management staff in general and it is nothing to do with DB Arriva running the show. This happens frequently at Marylebone and has done for a long while. You cannot announce a train if another is in front going to a different destination and also should not annouce a train until it is occupying a platform for safety reasons. The fault here lies in the platform allocation of the units, be it Chiltern or Network rail. I would always wonder when bringing a train into Marylebone I was called on top of another train when other platforms were unoccupied. However I am sympathetic with this complaint but to blame the demise of Adrian Shooter and DB Arriva taking over is far from the accurate reason.

I know Adrian Shooter personally and he was the best Director/MD I have worked with, a proper railway man and it was a shame when he retired but in this case this happened on a frequent basis when Adrian was at the helm.

 

[rp91]

I have sent in an email complaint, I didn't even get an automatic acknowledgement reply which is a pretty poor sign.

As it's automatic, are you sure they got it?

 

[Tibbs]

You cannot announce a train if another is in front going to a different destination and also should not annouce a train until it is occupying a platform for safety reasons.

What are the safety reasons?

 

[67018]

The disappearance of trains off the screens at Marylebone is particularly infuriating. I'm fully supportive of doors closing 30 seconds ahead of departure and this should be enough to ensure the train leaves on time; it's perfectly possible to safely get on a train on platforms 1-3 within about 30 seconds of arrival, particularly if arriving from the Bakerloo line. (OK, I know some people will say 'don't cut it so fine', but it's a fact of life with a connection from the tube unless you allow a massive contingency)

Presumably the main purpose of not advertising a train until another one on the same platform departs is to avoid confusion and passengers getting on the wrong train - but this is clearly much less than a risk than not displaying the train at all.

The way round this, of course, is to use a site like Realtime trains, which will not only show the booked platform but also usually shows a link to the inward working with the actual running info. It's usually a fair bet that the actual arrival platform for the inward is the one to go for. It's a useful way of avoiding the scrum, not to mention the hurried walk half way to Wembley if it's on platform 5 or 6!

 

[NSEFAN]

You cannot announce a train if another is in front going to a different destination and also should not annouce a train until it is occupying a platform for safety reasons.

You can announce the two trains; you simply tell passengers to go to the front/rear train. You also make sure they get frequent onboard announcements before departure and the info screens inside are scrolling through the booked calling points, so the pax. are reassured they're on the right train. I've seen this done at locations such as Waterloo, and it works fine, provided you make it absolutely clear what is going on.

What you avoid is the situation that now occurs at Reading when a Waterloo and Gatwick train share the same platform. The PIS there doesn't understand how to handle 2 trains in 1 platform. Marylebone is a manual announcement system, so it can't be that hard to adjust the procedure.

As for pax. being on the platform as the incoming service arrives, it's not efficient for crowd control but I can't see how it's a safety problem.

 

[Simon11]

Surely the key question is why are they planned to depart from the same platform?

I would guess that a double headed unit comes into the station, but then forms two shorter trains out. However the timings of the trains should therefore be changed.

 

[Pumbaa]

This same situation happens every hour at Lime Street. xx22 on the front is the TPE express to Scarborough, the xx25 on the blocks is the Northern stopper to Oxford Road. Advertised as the front / rear train as appropriate, all up on the boards. Seems to work fine.

 

[michael769]

You cannot announce a train if another is in front going to a different destination and also should not annouce a train until it is occupying a platform for safety reasons.

They do both at Edinburgh Waverley all the time.

Edinburgh used to be terrible at lat platform annoucements, until Transport Scotland stepped in and put a stop to it.

 

[306024]

I assume you mean that the 2245 was on the same platform but leaving first (I appreciate they have to stack them up at Marylebone) and they didn't want the doors of the 2248 open in case those for the 2245 board the wrong train.

Either way, it makes it virtually impossible to get that train.

That is pretty shocking planning by anybody's standards.

It would be interesting to know whether that is the permanent plan every night or whether Control had to swap units around for maintenance etc, in which case it was a one off.

If an incoming train is to split for two departures there must be a decent amount of time between these departures to avoid exactly what is reported. Personally I dislike any departures off the front of other trains and would always try to plan unit diagrams and platform working to minimise it. One of the tricks of unit diagramming is to plan good turnround times without increasing the operational cost.

Generally the sooner the platform can be advertised the better. There are a couple of situations where this can backfire, such as a late unit swap being required to work around a failure, or advertising the train before it has arrived, only for the Automatic Route Setting to do its own thing and send the incoming train up a different platform, but on the whole keeping the concourse clear and using the train as the waiting room is best.

 

[67018]

A bit of digging on Realtime trains suggests that, last night, there were actually three successive departures from platform 1 at MYB - 2B71 Aylesbury at 2242, 1R72 Birmingham Moor Street 2245 and 1N72 Bicester North 2248. No wonder there was a bit of confusion, especially if there was only one dispatcher on duty.

For tonight it shows 1R72 booked from Platform 3, so it suggests it was a one-off situation.

Having said that, the service that forms the 2248 actually arrives at Marylebone at 2017, so anyone aiming for that train in future has plenty of time to check where it is - providing the units don't get switched. It's not foolproof but it's a really good example of where open availability of this sort of data (and the people who have set up websites that make use of it) is incredibly useful.

 

[RPM]

I concur with Barrykas. This problem was entirely down to the fact that after a certain time in the evening a single train dispatcher is left in charge of all dispatching, operation of the PIS screens and announcements and they just simply can't do it all in situations like this.
The fact that both trains depart from the same platform might not be a regular occurence. It is possible that it was the result of a last minute unit swap or train plan alteration. If the problem only arises from time to time it may therefore have passed beneath the radar of the management, who are not at the station at this time of day anyway.
It does need addressing though, so I suggest the OP persists with his complaint. If the reply is an unsatisfactory standard letter, then perhaps write back again, incorporating some of the information that has come to light in this thread.

 

[306024]

.......providing the units don't get switched. It's not foolproof........

Precisely

I've no wish to drag the open data debate into this thread as well so we'll leave it at that.

 

[Searle]

A bit of digging on Realtime trains suggests that, last night, there were actually three successive departures from platform 1 at MYB - 2B71 Aylesbury at 2242, 1R72 Birmingham Moor Street 2245 and 1N72 Bicester North 2248. No wonder there was a bit of confusion, especially if there was only one dispatcher on duty.

For tonight it shows 1R72 booked from Platform 3, so it suggests it was a one-off situation.

That's the normal for Marylebone, and Aylesbury train leaves, with a Fast to Birmingham right behind it, followed by a Semi Fast to Birmingham/Stratford after it, all at 3 minute intervals.

 

[nxea321446]

this happened to me at liverpool street once i was waiting for the 17:22 greater anglia service to southminster a platform number did not come up until 17:20 which resulted in the train departing late at around 17:30

 

[MarlowDonkey]

but on the whole keeping the concourse clear and using the train as the waiting room is best.

It's a while since I last used Marylebone, but I got the impression that the policy was the opposite, namely to keep the concourse busy and not announce the trains until shortly before departure. It's surely a practice established over many years to have the "front train to x", "rear train to y" structure, so I don't see why Chiltern suddenly have a problem with it. Particularly as mostly a commuter station, many passengers would be regulars and thus familiar with the working practices.

 

[barrykas]

That's the normal for Marylebone, and Aylesbury train leaves, with a Fast to Birmingham right behind it, followed by a Semi Fast to Birmingham/Stratford after it, all at 3 minute intervals.

The issue was that all three trains were apparently on Platform 1, not that they were departing 3 minutes apart.

This week's base plan has the 22:42 and 22:48 on Platform 1 and the 22:45 and 23:07 on Platform 2, so there must have been a swap (or several) going on last night.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a while since I last used Marylebone, but I got the impression that the policy was the opposite, namely to keep the concourse busy and not announce the trains until shortly before departure. It's surely a practice established over many years to have the "front train to x", "rear train to y" structure, so I don't see why Chiltern suddenly have a problem with it. Particularly as mostly a commuter station, many passengers would be regulars and thus familiar with the working practices.

To my knowledge, the only time Chiltern have boarded multiple trains at Marylebone on the same platform was in Wrexham & Shropshire days, when there was something like an 18:33 Chiltern departure and an 18:36 W&S both on platform 3. Marshalling passengers into the correct train involved most of the W&S crew, the dispatcher, the platform manager and multiple announcements.

A secondary reason for not posting multiple trains on the same platform is that the platform monitors only show the first train, they're not split into "A" and "B" type sections.

 

[Lockwood]

You [...] should not annouce a train until it is occupying a platform for safety reasons.

I have heard many an announcement along the lines of "The next train to arrive on Platform One will be the Oh Nine Whatever South West Trains Service to London Waterloo, calling at Rowlands Castle, Petersfield, Liss, Liphook, Haslemere..." and there's been no train there.

"The train now standing at Platform One" announcements do tend to have a train there.

"This is a platform alteration. The Ten Something South West Trains Service to Portsmouth Harbour will now depart from Platform One" again tends to happen before the train arrives.


I'd say I've heard more announcements for trains whilst they have been out of station that when they have been in the station?

 

[grid56126]

A bit of digging on Realtime trains suggests that, last night, there were actually three successive departures from platform 1 at MYB - 2B71 Aylesbury at 2242, 1R72 Birmingham Moor Street 2245 and 1N72 Bicester North 2248. No wonder there was a bit of confusion, especially if there was only one dispatcher on duty.

All the more reason for a much more robust plan to be put in place then. If this is a perpetual issue, not only do the people who post on here know about it. I am a fairly infrequent user of the station, but have seen it at all times of day. Surely the staff know as well! When the few staff there are aware that this is going to be an issue then they should use their initiative and do something about it. You cannot surely suggest that getting it in the neck from the people left behind is easier than being proactive. We need to move away from problems to raising to the challenge, It's not that hard.

To say a train cannot be advertised until it is is a platform is complete and utter gibble. Go to Biggleswade and see the trains on the up fast being advertised an hour before they leave and watch the stream of 125 mph trains passing prior to that. Can't remember anyone being injured lately.

The splitters at Haywards Heath and Faversham all seem to be advertised en route and at the splitting stations quite adequately as do the trains at Kings Cross / New St / Leeds etc all occupying the same platform.

All that needs to change is for somebody to sort out the software on the CIS system, or more likely to use the software already on it and change some ridiculous instruction that has been handed down from some jobsworth years ago because we are all too scared to breathe.

Grid

 

[MarlowDonkey]

A secondary reason for not posting multiple trains on the same platform is that the platform monitors only show the first train, they're not split into "A" and "B" type sections.

I would have thought the bottom line is that it's very poor practice to not announce where a train is waiting at a terminus until six minutes before departure. So A and B signage, Red and Blue zones, Far train, Near train, whatever it takes to not have a last minute rush or even have the train depart without even being announced.

 

[306024]

It's a while since I last used Marylebone, but I got the impression that the policy was the opposite, namely to keep the concourse busy and not announce the trains until shortly before departure.

It may well be at Marylebone, but I maintain that keeping the concourse as free as possible is the best practice for the easy circulation of passengers, unless of course you own one of the many retail outlets.

 

[Goatboy]

should not annouce a train until it is occupying a platform for safety reasons

This seems like absolute rubbish to me. Every day thousands and thousands of trains have platform numbers and announcements before the train arrives and occupies a platform.

 

[hick]

The software can't do it.

The hardware layout can't do. Where on a 10 car platform is the front and rear section going to be when the platform can have any length of train from 2 to 7 carriages. With a 7 car and a 2 car, one of the trains will be in both halves. With 2 x 2 cars both trains will be in the rear section.

Multiple trains have been boarded at Marylebone (most notably a 2 car 165 to Gerard's cross on top of a w&s 67 rake), but it requires good co-ordination and extra staff, not available at MYB at 22:45.

Not saying it's acceptable what happened, but not always as easy or cheap as seems to have been assumed here and definitely not because of a jobs worth as was put somewhere up thread

 

[Mojo]

Marylebone has always been appalling when it comes to telling customers what platform their train departs from. I moved away from Aylesbury in 2005 and always remember having the platform announced at the very last minute possible leading to a scramble. They (including at the 'Meet the Manager' session) always used to give some bunkum about the trains needed to be cleaned or whatever. When we switched to Silverlink (as was) to Tring because of general dissatisfaction with Chiltern they often announced the platform before the train had come in, and the cleaners used to just clean around the customers. Probably a nuisance for the staff, but customer service was miles better.

One time they even stuck bits of cardboard to the end of the departure boards to try and enforce where people could stand to wait for their train!