Fantasy station/line/route re-openings and other projects

[Aictos]

1. Reopen Blackpool Central and use that for the vast majority of services as it was much better located then Blackpool North.

2. Reopen Spalding to March to enable more freight between Doncaster and Felixstowe to avoid Peterborough and then use the Joint line, this would enable much more passenger services to run.

3. Open a 4th platform at Newark Northgate for EMT services to allow much better integration with EC services.

4. Open a Parkway station south of the existing Peterborough station which would help reduce the road congestion around the existing station.

5. Wire up Harrogate loop between Leeds and York via Harrogate/Leeds to Preston via Bradford Interchange and Blackburn/Blackpool South to Colne/Windermere branch/Felixstowe to Doncaster via Peterborough and also via March and Spalding/Ipswich to Ely/Cambridge.

 

[AndyHudds]

The Leigh Loop.

Unfortunately GMPTE (aka if it's not a tram or about to be turned into a tram, we're not interested) have concreted over the route to be a guided busway.

A contender for the crappiest PTE surely ?

No, that goes to Metro in West Yorkshire. They achieved practically zero in terms of public transport in West Yorkshire. They've let the bus network be run into the ground, the rail network has not progressed anywhere in the last 20/25 years and we are now getting some crappy trolley buses. They seem indifferent to new stations and the reopening of closed routes, no matter how much sense they make. Calderdale Council are desperate for a station at Elland but Metro just show glib indifference to the whole project.

So, compare the achievements made by GMPTE and Metro, who is the better PTE?

 

[Harpers Tate]

No, that goes to Metro in West Yorkshire.

As a resident of South Yorkshire, I must say, I look over the border northwards (as regards rail services) with some envy. During WYPTE's existence there have been several routes re-opened to passenger traffic (Brighouse, Featherstone come immediately to mind); electrification of Wharfe and Aire, other station re-openings, new rolling stock and so on. Whereas in South Yorkshire, rail has seen two or three stations and one very small route re-opening (in Rotherham). No substantial new route; no electrification; no rolling stock.

One potential comparision of arguably similar situations is between Glasshoughton (XScape and J32 Outlet) and Parkgate near Rotherham. One had a new station constructed on an existing line adjacent to the retail complex; the other has two fully used rail lines adjacent and trains that sail right by......

In fairness, we do have the tram, though.

 

[yorksrob]

No, that goes to Metro in West Yorkshire. They achieved practically zero in terms of public transport in West Yorkshire. They've let the bus network be run into the ground, the rail network has not progressed anywhere in the last 20/25 years and we are now getting some crappy trolley buses. They seem indifferent to new stations and the reopening of closed routes, no matter how much sense they make. Calderdale Council are desperate for a station at Elland but Metro just show glib indifference to the whole project.

So, compare the achievements made by GMPTE and Metro, who is the better PTE?

I have to disagree. WYMetro has some issues, but having some experience of rail travel in Manchester, I'm glad I'm a commuter in WYorks rather than there. Better trains and less crowded services and having traveled through Manchester Victoria it's very noticeable how their side of the roof has been allowed to deteriorate. Manchester has far and away the crummiest trains and rail infrastructure. I agree that WYorks could do with getting some more station reopenings underway though.

 

[AndyHudds]

As a resident of South Yorkshire, I must say, I look over the border northwards (as regards rail services) with some envy. During WYPTE's existence there have been several routes re-opened to passenger traffic (Brighouse, Featherstone come immediately to mind); electrification of Wharfe and Aire, other station re-openings, new rolling stock and so on. Whereas in South Yorkshire, rail has seen two or three stations and one very small route re-opening (in Rotherham). No substantial new route; no electrification; no rolling stock.

One potential comparision of arguably similar situations is between Glasshoughton (XScape and J32 Outlet) and Parkgate near Rotherham. One had a new station constructed on an existing line adjacent to the retail complex; the other has two fully used rail lines adjacent and trains that sail right by......

In fairness, we do have the tram, though.

To be fair to Metro, in the early 80's they had a purge on station re-openings, granted. But in the last 10 years we've only had Brighouse and Glasshoughton as new stations, so I think you're being a bit generous on the 'several routes reopened' matter.

New rolling stock? You got to be kidding me, all we've had new rolling stock wise are the 185's on the TPE routes. Northern are still lumbering round with 142/144 Pacers and decrepit Sprinters from the early 80's. The 153's are ok though.

On the Parkgate situation, we have the very same situation here. The White Rose shopping centre is right next to the Huddersfield line but trains just whizz by.

 

[YorkshireBear]

To be fair to Metro, in the early 80's they had a purge on station re-openings, granted. But in the last 10 years we've only had Brighouse and Glasshoughton as new stations, so I think you're being a bit generous on the 'several routes reopened' matter.

New rolling stock? You got to be kidding me, all we've had new rolling stock wise are the 185's on the TPE routes. Northern are still lumbering round with 142/144 Pacers and decrepit Sprinters from the early 80's. The 153's are ok though.

On the Parkgate situation, we have the very same situation here. The White Rose shopping centre is right next to the Huddersfield line but trains just whizz by.

New rolling stock. No we are not kidding you. 333s, additional carriages funded by SYPTE though! Sheffield ONLY has the crummy units you refer to.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To be fair to Metro, in the early 80's they had a purge on station re-openings, granted. But in the last 10 years we've only had Brighouse and Glasshoughton as new stations, so I think you're being a bit generous on the 'several routes reopened' matter.

New rolling stock? You got to be kidding me, all we've had new rolling stock wise are the 185's on the TPE routes. Northern are still lumbering round with 142/144 Pacers and decrepit Sprinters from the early 80's. The 153's are ok though.

On the Parkgate situation, we have the very same situation here. The White Rose shopping centre is right next to the Huddersfield line but trains just whizz by.

Sorry to be pedantic, but West Yorkshire is at least home to the only post-privatisation rolling stock that Northern have: the 333s.

I think a problem with all PTEs is a tendency to neglect the outer-reaches of their area in favour of the 'main' centre. In Manchester this makes sense as much like London the main commercial/economic area is indeed the central 'core' of Manchester/Salford. Metro on the other hand is far too Leeds-centric in my opinion. The other major centres in West Yorkshire (Bradford and Huddersfield principally) get rather a poor deal in comparison. I get the impression that Doncaster suffers similarly compared to Sheffield. Likewise Wolverhampton and Coventry miss out compared to Brum; and Sunderland is the 'poor relation' to Newcastle-Gateshead.

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry to be pedantic, but West Yorkshire is at least home to the only post-privatisation rolling stock that Northern have: the 333s.

I think a problem with all PTEs is a tendency to neglect the outer-reaches of their area in favour of the 'main' centre. In Manchester this makes sense as much like London the main commercial/economic area is indeed the central 'core' of Manchester/Salford. Metro on the other hand is far too Leeds-centric in my opinion. The other major centres in West Yorkshire (Bradford and Huddersfield principally) get rather a poor deal in comparison. I get the impression that Doncaster suffers similarly compared to Sheffield. Likewise Wolverhampton and Coventry miss out compared to Brum; and Sunderland is the 'poor relation' to Newcastle-Gateshead.

To be fair to Metro, it does make an effort in this respect. The perseverence with rail services centered on Huddersfield, Wakefield and Pontefract, even though they're probably not particularly profitable is a real achievement IMO.

 

[AndyHudds]

To be fair to Metro, it does make an effort in this respect. The perseverence with rail services centered on Huddersfield, Wakefield and Pontefract, even though they're probably not particularly profitable is a real achievement IMO.

Huddersfield station had over 4 million passengers in 10/11....so I'd hardly say the Huddersfield area is unprofitable in the respect of rail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry to be pedantic, but West Yorkshire is at least home to the only post-privatisation rolling stock that Northern have: the 333s.

I think a problem with all PTEs is a tendency to neglect the outer-reaches of their area in favour of the 'main' centre. In Manchester this makes sense as much like London the main commercial/economic area is indeed the central 'core' of Manchester/Salford. Metro on the other hand is far too Leeds-centric in my opinion. The other major centres in West Yorkshire (Bradford and Huddersfield principally) get rather a poor deal in comparison. I get the impression that Doncaster suffers similarly compared to Sheffield. Likewise Wolverhampton and Coventry miss out compared to Brum; and Sunderland is the 'poor relation' to Newcastle-Gateshead.

Ok, fair enough, but these are electrics, hardly able to be used in the wider West Yorkshire area, they are just confined to the Leeds to Bradford/Skipton corridor.

 

[yorksrob]

Huddersfield station had over 4 million passengers in 10/11....so I'd hardly say the Huddersfield area is unprofitable in the respect of rail.

True, but I doubt the Wakefield/Halifax services emminating from Huddersfield are profitable. That they exist at all shows a real commitment to rail from Metro.

 

[route:oxford]

Ok... This route/re-opening will be subject to heavy criticism as it would require a reversal and the building 2km of new route (as opposed to simply just a reopening).

So...

Re-open the route between Alloa and Tillicoultry.
Re-open the route between Alloa and Alva.
Create a 2km route linking Alva and Tillicoultry.
Dual the route between Stirling & Alloa

Services to operate on a "clockface" timetable on a single day-rider fare structure on a "Circle" route.

Stirling-Alloa-Sauchie-Fishcross-Tillicoultry (Reversal)

Tillcoultry-Alva-Menstrie-Alloa (Reversal)

Alloa-Stirling

 

[YorkshireBear]

Huddersfield station had over 4 million passengers in 10/11....so I'd hardly say the Huddersfield area is unprofitable in the respect of rail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ok, fair enough, but these are electrics, hardly able to be used in the wider West Yorkshire area, they are just confined to the Leeds to Bradford/Skipton corridor.

Are you expecting WYMetro to electrify the whole region suddenly? The fact that we have new electric suburban units in Yorkshire at all is an accomplishment. And i echo yorksrob comments about Huddersfield, I imagine the services to Manc and Leeds are profitable but hourly services to Halifax and Wakefield are a real achievement, along with the Featherstone line and others around knottingley. If only SYPTE had taken the same attitude we would have the Woodhead route to Stocksbridge open a redoubled Dore curve and many other improvements by now.

 

[infobleep]

Pure fantasy but if money was no object and the environment wasn't affected, I would open a steam railway line between London and Scotland, with some branches off it. It would run express services and local services. Totally unworkable of course and will never happen.

On a more realistic note, when HS2 opens, I don't see why some stations previously closed on other fast routes can't reopen. I mean there are stations between Manchester and York which are still open, until you join the east coast mainline and then suddenly they are all closed. It's as if you can have a small station providing it's not on the east coast mainline. I can't believe the stations west of the east coast mainline would be used any more than those on the east coast mainline itself. Since HS2 is suppose to be about speed then would the others require such few stations still?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On a more realistic note, when HS2 opens, I don't see why some stations previously closed on other fast routes can't reopen. I mean there are stations between Manchester and York which are still open, until you join the east coast mainline and then suddenly they are all closed. It's as if you can have a small station providing it's not on the east coast mainline. I can't believe the stations west of the east coast mainline would be used any more than those on the east coast mainline itself. Since HS2 is suppose to be about speed then would the others require such few stations still?

Fair point- though many of the former stations along the ECML are in the middle of nowhere, one of the reasons they closed in the first place. There may be a case for more services calling at places like Thirsk and Northallerton once HS2 is up and running, but I can't think of anywhere where no station exists currently yet there'd be a case for opening one.

Getting back on topic and moving away from my home territory, it'd be nice if a case could be made for a station reopening in Wellington (Somerset). This small market town should serve as a warning of what happens when a settlement becomes isolated- When I lived in Taunton (2003-2006) I met several Wellingtonites who considered a trip to Taunton (a distance of around 10miles) to be something of great luxury and would be undertaken only 2-3 times each year!

 

[StupidQuestion]

Sorry if this has been talked about before but would be nice to make 'triangle junctions' (not sure what the technical term is) south of gainsborough and north of Brigg to allow Lincoln to Scunthorpe trains via gainsborough central. It currently takes several hours to travel by train between Lincoln and Scunthorpe despite being two of the major towns/cities in the area. I would guess a direct route would take less than an hour saving hours from the current situation
Would this be possible or at all likely? Wouldn't need more than a few hundred metres of new track I would guess but I'm no expert.
If done and the Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central trains are run more regularly (on weekdays) then Sheffield - Lincoln trains could avoid Gainsborough (it would still have trains to both Sheffield and Lincoln from the other 2 sevices) and run via Cottam between Saxilby and Retford if this bit of line was reopened (looks like 2-3 miles on google maps). If the stops between Sheffield and Worksop are allocated to the Sheffield-Cleethorpes train and the Lincoln-Sheffield train only stops at Worksop, Retford, Saxily I would guess the time could be cut to under an hour. Maybe even more time could be saved if it is ever electrified in the long term future.
Any idea if any of this could ever happen?
Cheers!

 

[AndyHudds]

Are you expecting WYMetro to electrify the whole region suddenly? The fact that we have new electric suburban units in Yorkshire at all is an accomplishment. And i echo yorksrob comments about Huddersfield, I imagine the services to Manc and Leeds are profitable but hourly services to Halifax and Wakefield are a real achievement, along with the Featherstone line and others around knottingley. If only SYPTE had taken the same attitude we would have the Woodhead route to Stocksbridge open a redoubled Dore curve and many other improvements by now.

I never said that, someone made the point saying West Yorks was exclusively the home to 333's and I said they can only be used on electrified routes. I never said I expected the whole area to be electrified.

Granted the hourly service to Halifax/Bradford outside peak hours isn't rammed,when it first kicked off nobody hardly used it at all. At peak times its quite well used, even outside peak hours the passenger numbers are quite good, but I take your point. The Wakefield service has London connections, so that's a big bonus in the services favour. I'd extend the Manchester Huddersfield stopper through to Wakefield,as there are no direct services through to Wakey, when the Kirkgate refurb is finished I hope they consider introducing a 2 per hour new Manchester service, one via Huddersfield and one via the Calder Valley. The Wakefield service could by developed more with adding a few extra stations and services and an extension to Manchester.

I just Metro could up their game in the rail department. I'm not convinced that Metro have made the same incremental gains that other PTE's have in particular GMPTE.

 

[Blindtraveler]

pump the required funds into all the capacity improvements humanly possible on the HML, taking pressure off the A9 and allowing better passenger stock as well as much greater volumes of freight to be moved on the route.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry if this has been talked about before but would be nice to make 'triangle junctions' (not sure what the technical term is) south of gainsborough and north of Brigg to allow Lincoln to Scunthorpe trains via gainsborough central. It currently takes several hours to travel by train between Lincoln and Scunthorpe despite being two of the major towns/cities in the area. I would guess a direct route would take less than an hour saving hours from the current situation
Would this be possible or at all likely? Wouldn't need more than a few hundred metres of new track I would guess but I'm no expert.
If done and the Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central trains are run more regularly (on weekdays) then Sheffield - Lincoln trains could avoid Gainsborough (it would still have trains to both Sheffield and Lincoln from the other 2 sevices) and run via Cottam between Saxilby and Retford if this bit of line was reopened (looks like 2-3 miles on google maps). If the stops between Sheffield and Worksop are allocated to the Sheffield-Cleethorpes train and the Lincoln-Sheffield train only stops at Worksop, Retford, Saxily I would guess the time could be cut to under an hour. Maybe even more time could be saved if it is ever electrified in the long term future.
Any idea if any of this could ever happen?
Cheers!

The installation of the two curves you mention looks possible. The land is there unsure about the radii to include Gainsborough.

 

[StupidQuestion]

The installation of the two curves you mention looks possible. The land is there unsure about the radii to include Gainsborough.

Thanks for the response YorkshireBear!
The 'Brigg curve' is just in fields and I imagine would be easy enough. I estimate a curve at Gainsborough would have a radius of about 300m without knocking down any buildings etc. I have no idea whether this is too tight or not. Does anyone know? Cheers!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

interesting ideas!

In terms of Leicester and the midlands:

1) Re open Blaby Station on the Leicester to Birmingham line and revise the track plan, if possible, at Hinckley. This could then allow for a half hourly local stations stopping service from Leicester to Hinkley formed of a class 153 or pacer. This would provide quicker transport and also cheaper transport for many commuters.

I don't know the area that well, but surely if you were going to do something like this then the obvious thing to do would be have a Leicester - Nuneaton stopper rather than try to introduce a turnback facility at Hinckley?
Nuneaton is four miles down the road, opens up a whole host of connections (Coventry, WCML and the extra Birmingham train which doesn't stop at Wigston/Narborough/Hinckley) and probably provide as many if not more passengers for the service as any of the local stations.
I don't think you will struggle to get paths into Nuneaton, the station certainly has the facility to turn back already in situ and it would only add about ten minutes to a round trip.

 

[MCW]

I don't know the area that well, but surely if you were going to do something like this then the obvious thing to do would be have a Leicester - Nuneaton stopper rather than try to introduce a turnback facility at Hinckley?
Nuneaton is four miles down the road, opens up a whole host of connections (Coventry, WCML and the extra Birmingham train which doesn't stop at Wigston/Narborough/Hinckley) and probably provide as many if not more passengers for the service as any of the local stations.
I don't think you will struggle to get paths into Nuneaton, the station certainly has the facility to turn back already in situ and it would only add about ten minutes to a round trip.

Yeah fair point actually, probably would work better that way.

Also a shame that you can no longer have a direct Leicester to Coventry train due to how Nuneaton is now laid out, that would have been very useful and another link worth having?

 

[Eagle]

Also a shame that you can no longer have a direct Leicester to Coventry train due to how Nuneaton is now laid out, that would have been very useful and another link worth having?

You can, but it's rather awkward. You'd have the train from Leicester arriving into platform 6, then proceeding over the flyover and coming to a stop at the first signal past Abbey Junction. The driver then changes ends and the train takes the curve onto the mainline into platform 1, from where it can continue to Coventry.

Would never happen regularly, of course.

 

[MCW]

You can, but it's rather awkward. You'd have the train from Leicester arriving into platform 6, then proceeding over the flyover and coming to a stop at the first signal past Abbey Junction. The driver then changes ends and the train takes the curve onto the mainline into platform 1, from where it can continue to Coventry.

Would never happen regularly, of course.

I know, bit of a faf to do it all, and it would probably take the best part of 10 or 15 mins to do it, by which point it would be more feasible if there was an half hourly service between nuneaton and coventry

 

[Antman]

A new station at Seasalter, between Faversham and Whitstable, would be very welcome. It has been mooted before but that's as far as it's got

 

[swt_passenger]

3) Rebuild Southampton Central station providing two new through platforms, an east facing bay platform (for the Southampton to Portsmouth & Southsea all-stations), a west-facing bay platform (for Fawley line services and services to Great Malvern), two non-platform roads for freight trains and an overall roof.

The west facing bay exists, as you know. However a centrally located east facing bay could also be used by the Southern terminating services if they remained in current timings. (the sort of layout they have at Milton Keynes on the slows, with the up slow platform 'staggered' to allow an inside four car bay). Removing those three services effectively frees up P2 and P3 for most of the time. I don't think you'd really need any extra platforms then.

I'd then suggest that if extra freight capacity were needed you'd also need a new tunnel, so an easier solution would be to run the freight via your newly reinstated route from Romsey to Andover...

 

[edwin_m]

Getting back on topic and moving away from my home territory, it'd be nice if a case could be made for a station reopening in Wellington (Somerset). This small market town should serve as a warning of what happens when a settlement becomes isolated- When I lived in Taunton (2003-2006) I met several Wellingtonites who considered a trip to Taunton (a distance of around 10miles) to be something of great luxury and would be undertaken only 2-3 times each year!

That could be a big part of the reason why the station closed in the first place.

Taking the example of Mansfield, I reckon it was just as important a settlement when it lost its passenger service as when it got it back. The difference was that in the 60s most people worked near where they lived and few people had any reason to travel in or out of the town. With the demise of mining and other industries the economy is now more service-based with much more need for commuting and other travel.

 

[SeanG]

Okay a biggie from me.

Basically the plan is, as the T&W Metro cars become life expired, integrate the system back into Network Rail.

Order new 4 coach dual voltage units, for both standard 25kv AC and the metro's 1500v DC.

The shared tracks with Netwrok rail are re-wired where necessary to 25kv in order to create an electrified route from Newcastle - Stockton - Yarm - Northallertton, with a stub to Middlesbrough. Plus electrification to Hexham.

The Metro is extended from South Hylton to Washington, and also from Washington up the Leamiside line in order to create a southern loop.

The Metro, now merely an electrified suburban service, is also extended onto the freight lines of south Northumberland, to Blyth and Ashington.

Ideally the frequency along the core current Metro line of Pelaw - South Gosforth could also be increased.

Therefore the Tyneside/North east electric services would be:

Middlesbrough - Newcastle Central - Newcastle Airport
alternating with
Middlesbrough - Newcastle - Blyth - Ashington

South Shields - Newcastle - Coast - St James (as present)
alternating with
South Shields - Newcastle - Airport

Ashington - Bylth - Newcastle - Sunderland - Washington - Newcastle - Blyth - Ashington
alternating with
Ashington - Blyth - Newcastle - Middlesbrough

Hexham - Metro Centre- Newcastle - Walker - Coast - direct to Airport (creating running lines through South Gosforth depot)


The current Metro Centre - Morpeth would be started back from Hexham and all electric

The Middlesbrough to Hexham services would be all electric, save for those extending to Carlisle.


Big plans, but you never know...

 

[FenMan]

Reinstate the proposal for Blackwater Valley light rail.
- reopen the chord south of Frimley to the SWML (westwards)
- redouble Ash Vale - Camberley
- new light rail halts opened at approximately one mile intervals.

Route 1 Ascot to Aldershot:
Ascot
Bagshot
Bagshot West
Camberley Heatherside
Camberley
Frimley Road
Watchetts Park
Frimley
Frimley Green (0.4M walk to Farnborough North for interchange with North Downs Line)
Mytchett
Ash Vale
North Town
Aldershot

Route 2 Ascot to Fleet
As for Ascot to Frimley Green, then
Farnborough Main
Cove
Fleet

And, as a previous poster has mentioned, it would be nice if the Ascot - Aldershot and North Down Lines joined up!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That could be a big part of the reason why the station closed in the first place.

Taking the example of Mansfield, I reckon it was just as important a settlement when it lost its passenger service as when it got it back. The difference was that in the 60s most people worked near where they lived and few people had any reason to travel in or out of the town. With the demise of mining and other industries the economy is now more service-based with much more need for commuting and other travel.

But Wellington was closed in the 1960s, when car ownership was on the up, roads were less congested and as a result many stations saw a decline in usage. If Wellington doesn't get it's station back I fear for the gene-pool of said town!

 

[edwin_m]

But if Wellington or Mansfield was particularly insular it might explain why they lost their train service when other places of similar size didn't.