Woolwich incident 22 May

[swj99]

I like the way when an incident like this happens you get internet tough guys coming on saying "Why didn't someone do something?" And you know what they would have done if they were there? Absolutely nothing, just like everybody else.....unless they had some kind if death wish.

And why aren't they "beating them to death"? Because a) these guys were armed with machetes

Because it always looks easier in the films and the training videos.

I wonder how many of those so called bystanders had training or experience in unarmed combat.

I have seen a lot of people who have "had a go" in the past some were justified in cases where they stopped a crime being committed but in this case people were probably right to stay out of it.

I remember an incident where someone had a go. It went wrong and he ended up with life threatening injuries.

I absolutely guarantee that if members of the public had tried to intervene they would be dead alongside them and possibly made this worse.

People usually act according to their perception, experience and / or training. I’m sure if anyone who was there had thought they were in with a reasonable chance of stopping it, they would have tried. The fact that they didn’t suggests that they realized the seriousness of the situation.

It’s easy to look at something like this in hindsight, which of course is an exact science, and wonder what if. Or speculate on what could have been done differently. Bearing in mind there were two armed assailants, you’d realistically need at least two, possibly more people who were able to disarm and either injure or restrain both assailants to the point where they were no longer a threat. There are probably plenty of people who think they could do this, but I would have thought there are probably a lot less who are actually capable of it.

What makes me sad is the pointless pages for likes being formed on facebook and the very apparent racism from many quarters.

Yes definitely. As if what’s happened isn’t bad enough already, there’s some quite disturbing and inflammatory stuff being posted on facebook. I also find it quite sad that the EDL seem to have taken it upon themselves to waste valuable police resources by causing trouble.

 

[RailProfileUK]

Need I say anything on this incident... An innocent soldier hacked to death in broad daylight. I bet nobody on here is going to defend these guys and say the shouldn't be hanged or should we lock them up with an Xbox?

I apologise if I come across a bit funny but this has sickend me. There are too many do gooders on this planet.

 

[yorkie]

I bet nobody on here is going to defend these guys...

I am sure no-one here will!

and say the shouldn't be hanged or should we lock them up with an Xbox?

Please don't try to have a debate on the death penalty on this thread. It was bad enough having that debate in another thread!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Horrible incident. I know the emergency services staff involved are getting support.

If there had been any have-a-go-heroes, the death toll would likely have been higher. FWIW I would have gone nowhere near that scene until secured by the police.

However, the racism from some quarters of society is sickening. These people are not representative of Islam.

 

[Bungle73]

The most sickening thing I have seen today is not the pools of blood in the road, nor the being who committed the atrocity standing with blood soaked hands, .... its a Daily Mirror picture accessed by a link on post 36 of this thread, the third picture on page 2 of 12 to be precise, which shows the police pointing guns at the two beings on the road. I can't bring myself to call them men, or humans, and yet the Mirtror chooses to publish a picture in which they are labelled as "Victims" - presumably because the police are pointing guns at them. Victims...they've just cut somebody's head off and they are referred to, in 2013, as VICTIMS. I completely despair.

I can't find anything that says any such thing about them.

 

[tsr]

Going on the information that is currently in the public domain, even the 20 strong force you suggest would be at a serious tactical disadvantage.
Several witnesses have stated that they saw at least one of the attackers carrying a pistol type firearm if my memory of my weapons training serves me correctly, a pistol holds on average 12 to 15 rounds say he discharged 4 to 5 rounds in 'celebration' he is left with say 10 to 11 rounds, that's half your mob down already assuming each round finds its target.
Then we have to consider that witnesses say that both men had meat cleavers and machetes which could easily account for the rest of an un armed group.
In that situation for any unarmed person (regardless of weather they have training or not) it would be far better for their continuing health for them to keep their distance and call the Police.

Reports from eyewitnesses do seem to indicate that armed police pretty much immediately opened fire on the attackers when they arrived. A police officer will not take the decision lightly to shoot someone with a conventional firearm, of course. With the sort of risk they judged these individuals to pose, leading to that action, I think I agree that it would have been extremely hazardous to approach the suspects unless trained to do so.

I agree with what ralphchadkirk has implied. If you are a civilian, unarmed bystander, do not, by attempting to help a casualty, become one yourself. Do not place yourself in a position of confrontation unless you have no way out or unless you can escape or mitigate appropriately.

 

[DarloRich]

They wanted to "start a war"? Just the two of them?

I think what we have here is a pair of seriously unhinged individuals.

on that we can agree!

 

[Antman]

Yes definitely. As if what’s happened isn’t bad enough already, there’s some quite disturbing and inflammatory stuff being posted on facebook. I also find it quite sad that the EDL seem to have taken it upon themselves to waste valuable police resources by causing trouble.

But there were zero arrests:roll:

 

[jon0844]

Now the police have confirmed they arrived in nine minutes, but then waited for the armed response team (who presumably were already being briefed that there was a clear and obvious immediate danger), I think some of the comments on here are now proven to be very wrong.

As we can now see, some people did get involved. One person tried to get them to hand over their weapons. Things were also happening 'off camera' to get people to safety, and to protect school children that presumably came over to have a nose about a car crash and possible argument afterwards (and, let's face it, you only need to see the rubberneckers at any accident on a road to know that people will go and look). Only problem this time was that it wasn't just a car accident.

I think any have-a-go hero could have been seriously hurt or killed, and it would have taken some sort of group agreement to act together - and how easy would that be if there were lots of individuals that couldn't be sure that if they stormed the two, they'd have others following them?

 

[Antman]

Now the police have confirmed they arrived in nine minutes, but then waited for the armed response team (who presumably were already being briefed that there was a clear and obvious immediate danger), I think some of the comments on here are now proven to be very wrong.

As we can now see, some people did get involved. One person tried to get them to hand over their weapons. Things were also happening 'off camera' to get people to safety, and to protect school children that presumably came over to have a nose about a car crash and possible argument afterwards (and, let's face it, you only need to see the rubberneckers at any accident on a road to know that people will go and look). Only problem this time was that it wasn't just a car accident.

I think any have-a-go hero could have been seriously hurt or killed, and it would have taken some sort of group agreement to act together - and how easy would that be if there were lots of individuals that couldn't be sure that if they stormed the two, they'd have others following them?

Had these two lunatics started attacking others they would soon have been over powered however they just stood around calmly chatting to bystanders, one little old lady even walked past totally oblivious to it all, quite surreal really.

As there was a lot of confusion as to what had actually happened it was probably best that they waited for police to deal with it, there's the obvious danger of any 'lynch mob' getting the wrong person.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I do think that if they'd attacked anyone else then people would have acted and it could have been far bloodier than it already was.

It's precisely because this was such a bizarre and unexpected incident that people acted in what now seems a strange way, because they didn't know or understand what had happened.

Those two guys seemed pretty mobile, so what if you'd gone to leave? Would you run like crazy to get away? Quietly slip away and hope not to be noticed? Try and stand still and not make eye contact? Or go in on the attack, possibly alone?

And now, going forward, you'll have people thinking of this when there's another road accident or argument on the street - added to the long list of 'new' things to consider as a threat.

Such is the way of terrorism.

 

[Bungle73]

Apparently there's some people on Twitter who don't know the difference between the EDL and EDF.......

Need I say anything on this incident... An innocent soldier hacked to death in broad daylight. I bet nobody on here is going to defend these guys and say the shouldn't be hanged or should we lock them up with an Xbox?

I apologise if I come across a bit funny but this has sickend me. There are too many do gooders on this planet.

I'm going to say they should not be hanged because I don't believe in the death penalty. And where has anyone who doesn't "defended" criminals?

 

[jon0844]

I have to say that, as a customer, I have a certain hatred for EDF too.

 

[RailProfileUK]

Apparently there's some people on Twitter who don't know the difference between the EDL and EDF.......



I'm going to say they should not be hanged because I don't believe in the death penalty. And where has anyone who doesn't "defended" criminals?

If you remember I was slated in another thread last week for my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion but its people with views like yourself who let these people stay amongst society.

Fairytale world springs to mind.

 

[Bungle73]

If you remember I was slated in another thread last week for my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion but its people with views like yourself who let these people stay amongst society.

Fairytale world springs to mind.

They don't "stay amongst society", they get locked away in prison.

And people with "views like yourself" aren't interested in justice, what you want is vengeance (even if you try to dress it up), which should have no place in a civilised justice system. Yours is a straw man argument. There is no logical reason for reintroducing the death penalty.

 

[Bedpan]

I can't find anything that says any such thing about them.

They seem to have removed it. No surprise really as it must have prompted loads of complaints.

 

[Ferret]

BBC now quoting sources who claim these vile individuals were known to the security services. One can of worms opened.

 

[jon0844]

BBC now quoting sources who claim these vile individuals were known to the security services. One can of worms opened.

There must be many thousands of people known by the police and/or security services, but you can't surely watch them all of the time.

 

[Ferret]

There must be many thousands of people known by the police and/or security services, but you can't surely watch them all of the time.

Well quite, but that won't stop the usual suspects trying to make political capital out of it.

 

[DarloRich]

I would like to return to my comments of yesterday evening which were made without the benefit of enough information and were based on partial and incomplete “facts” misheard in snatches from the TV and radio, particularly those early on in a developing story.

I had assumed, wrongly, from this misheard information that a bus load of people had been passing the scene at the time of the attack and had simply alighted and not tried to intervene. I assumed these to be the people milling around in the background in the disgusting video broadcast by ITV and others.

This formed the basis of my opinion that people had done nothing. In hearing and seeing more interviews with eyewitnesses yesterday evening and today it has become apparent that most people in the vicinity thought there had been a car crash and the assailants were offering first aid to the victim. I also did not appreciate how heavily armed the two attackers were. I assumed them to have one knife each rather than an arsenal of sharp things and firearms. To try and tackle them would be suicidal and the sensible thing to do would be to allow the armed police to deal with them.

The fact that people did try to “talk them down” and tried persuade them to hand over their weapons and protected the body of the victim is quite amazing and inspiring. They deserve awards for bravery.

Whilst I do think there are points regarding too many too people simply “walking on by” in our society but this is not the correct time or place to make those points. I now think that my comments have been made to look really quite stupid and this should stand as a lesson to all not to go off half cock!

 

[RailProfileUK]

They don't "stay amongst society", they get locked away in prison.

And people with "views like yourself" aren't interested in justice, what you want is vengeance (even if you try to dress it up), which should have no place in a civilised justice system. Yours is a straw man argument. There is no logical reason for reintroducing the death penalty.

For how long only to return to re offend? As we have just been informed they were known to the national security well they should have been booted out long time ago, but we can't we do that because of these "do gooders" I would like justice but "real justice" not just locked up for a few years then back out to reoffend. I am not one for arguing or disagreeing with people but I live in the real world not up in the clouds.

 

[Ferret]

I'll be amazed if they are ever released RailProfile. I also would not wish to be on a prison wing if I was them. They'll be targetted more than a child killer.

 

[Bungle73]

For how long only to return to re offend? As we have just been informed they were known to the national security well they should have been booted out long time ago, but we can't we do that because of these "do gooders" I would like justice but "real justice" not just locked up for a few years then back out to reoffend. I am not one for arguing or disagreeing with people but I live in the real world not up in the clouds.

Booted out? And what if they are British citizens? Apparently at least one of them was born here.

And do you really think these guys will get let out any time soon? They will most probably spend a long, long time in jail, if the ever get out at all.

And lots of people are "known" but that doesn't mean any action should, or could, be taken.

And being put into prison IS justice. What IS NOT justice is state-sanctioned killing just to make people like you feel better. As I said before there is no logical reason to reintroduce the death penalty, and you have not brought anything to this argument to challenge that.

 

[AlexS]

What exactly would the objection be in this case? There's no question of innocence to defend or chance of the wrong person being executed. It's all very obvious. I see no problem in getting what gen you can out of them and then putting them out of the ongoing misery of their existence, and saving a load of money in the process.

The alternative of course being a load of money required to keep them alive for no real purpose. I'm sure there's members of the military who would be willing or able to carry out the deed at cost price considering the circumstances.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

One down side to killing the offenders in this instance would be that you would create a very dangerous set of new martyrs for like-minded people (for example, but not specifically, Islamic terrorists attacking the West). As Ferret said, any time they have inside won't be even remotely decent for them, if they live long enough inside to realise that.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

What exactly would the objection be in this case? There's no question of innocence to defend or chance of the wrong person being executed. It's all very obvious. I see no problem in getting what gen you can out of them and then putting them out of the ongoing misery of their existence, and saving a load of money in the process.

The alternative of course being a load of money required to keep them alive for no real purpose. I'm sure there's members of the military who would be willing or able to carry out the deed at cost price considering the circumstances.

I like to think we're more civilised than they are. Sometimes I wonder though.

 

[RailProfileUK]

I'll be amazed if they are ever released RailProfile. I also would not wish to be on a prison wing if I was them. They'll be targetted more than a child killer.

I strongly agree on that.

Booted out? And what if they are British citizens? Apparently at least one of them was born here.

And do you really think these guys will get let out any time soon? They will most probably spend a long, long time in jail, if the ever get out at all.

And lots of people are "known" but that doesn't mean any action should, or could, be taken.

And being put into prison IS justice. What IS NOT justice is state-sanctioned killing just to make people like you feel better. As I said before there is no logical reason to reintroduce the death penalty, and you have not brought anything to this argument to challenge that.

I am sorry bungle but you have the wool over your eyes on this one, I am sure you are a nice person but don't have a clue what it is like to live in the real world, like a lot of people as long as you are not directly affected it's ok to let everyone else suffer. I also have the internet in front of me and could argue the argument for capital punishment but I have better things to do.

What exactly would the objection be in this case? There's no question of innocence to defend or chance of the wrong person being executed. It's all very obvious. I see no problem in getting what gen you can out of them and then putting them out of the ongoing misery of their existence, and saving a load of money in the process.

The alternative of course being a load of money required to keep them alive for no real purpose. I'm sure there's members of the military who would be willing or able to carry out the deed at cost price considering the circumstances.

Exactly Alex, there is no "mistaken identity or lack of evidence" to sentence in this case.

One down side to killing the offenders in this instance would be that you would create a very dangerous set of new martyrs for like-minded people (for example, but not specifically, Islamic terrorists attacking the West). As Ferret said, any time they have inside won't be even remotely decent for them, if they live long enough inside to realise that.

This would be the most sensible thing I have heard for not killing the offenders and this would make me think twice before carrying it out.

 

[Bungle73]

What exactly would the objection be in this case? There's no question of innocence to defend or chance of the wrong person being executed. It's all very obvious. I see no problem in getting what gen you can out of them and then putting them out of the ongoing misery of their existence, and saving a load of money in the process.

Apart from what Matt said there is the aspect that state-sanctioned killing is both abhorrent and wrong, and also it would achieve nothing, except to satisfy some people's blood lust.

I am sorry bungle but you have the wool over your eyes on this one, I am sure you are a nice person but don't have a clue what it is like to live in the real world, like a lot of people as long as you are not directly affected it's ok to let everyone else suffer. I also have the internet in front of me and could argue the argument for capital punishment but I have better things to do.

Do you actually haver anything of any relevance to contribute to this conversation, apart from guff? You whole "argument"...if one can even call it that....is asinine.

 

[AlexS]

The answer then, is that you personally believe it is abhorrent and wrong. Which is a personal opinion, I respect your right to hold it. Mine differs.

I also disagree there's nothing to be gained, except for a rather large cost saving on the expenditure that is now going to have to be used inevitably caring for these two people for the next 5 or 6 decades, should they live an average lifespan. It's already kicking in now as we are paying for their hospital treatment, although I'd say it was worth it to keep them alive to stand trial, perhaps.

If you ask me, therefore, there is quite a lot to be gained, certainly financially, and probably in other ways as well.

The only reason we have to pay to keep these people fed, housed and generally safe, is because they have a 'right' to it as human beings. Any other animal doing the same would have been killed already. In my humble opinion, this right was given up when they decided to slaughter another human being in the street. If they'd done it on a battlefield, they'd have been killed as quickly as possible and no one would have thought any more about that.

Because they chose to do it on a street in London, it's suddenly wrong to do anything other than accept benignly the cost of providing for these monsters. Never was there a more disgusting and apt case of being caught literally red handed, it sickens me.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The terrorists want to be martyrs, sentencing them to death fulfills that desire. They therefore should not be allowed to die ever