What is so bad about a Pacer?

[northwichcat]

Trainload of unamused normals on th 1914 MAN - MIA stopper - weve got a pretty poor nick ex ATN pacer on it

Same reaction that Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme passengers give to Pacers. Most of their services are class 323s with also a fair few 150s but since last December most off-peak Chester services call at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme northbound with 2/5 of the Chester diagrams being booked for 142s.

 

[southern442]

Noisy, slow, no carpets, no vestibules so the doors are in the actual carriage. Just feel like your on a bus.

The 142's/3's/4's are actually as fast as any other suburban unit, but I get what you mean. They do not belong on long-distance journeys, just as buses don't belong on long-distance journeys.

 

[Haydn1971]

Speaking as someone who dislikes Pacers and isn't much of a fan of the 150/153 stock either, the Pacer experience largely depends on if its been refurbished or not. There are the "better" ones with new high back airline seating and the "worse" ones with the 70's style 3+2 bench bus seating or older 2+2 seating with the remains of dead people ingrained into the seat covers and filling. The ride is a degree better on the new seats, but in general, the Pacer is substantially worse than just about anything on the UK network.

The Northern 158's aren't that great in terms of seat quality, leg space, shabby end compartments and poor air conditioning either, the 150/153's fall somewhere inbetween. I've actually taken to travelling home from Leeds to Meadowhall on the ECML and changing at Doncaster onto a FTPE 185 for a better trip home, sadly the times don't work well for me going to Leeds. I dream of FTPE taking on the Leeds-Nottingham semi-express route with newer trains, or even better, XC adding a Meadowhall stop into there peak hour services - although a 4/5 car 220 is pretty much rammed in the peak, has people sitting on the roof and the lobby areas still smell of urine.

Erm... Did I go off topic there

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On my DayRover outing yesterday (Monday 3rd June) I definitely saw at least 2 142s with bus benches in Leeds working on Harrogate/Morecambe services. Luckily, when I had call to travel to Burley Park I was blessed with 2x150/2- Standing room only nontheless! As a type-1 diabetic, the 333s passed the injection test with flying colours, but I wouldn't have bothered trying on a 142/144!

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I'd rather sit on a Pacer, than stand on a 185 or 170. (And I choose to do so between Huddersfield and Leeds, when time is not at a premium)

 

[yorksrob]

On my DayRover outing yesterday (Monday 3rd June) I definitely saw at least 2 142s with bus benches in Leeds working on Harrogate/Morecambe services. Luckily, when I had call to travel to Burley Park I was blessed with 2x150/2- Standing room only nontheless! As a type-1 diabetic, the 333s passed the injection test with flying colours, but I wouldn't have bothered trying on a 142/144!

That's quite bad. We usually get one of the better examples for the Morecambe slogan. For Harrogate , anything goes.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

142s ( from Heaton! ) do work on Sheffield - Doncaster - Lincoln diagrams.

What have we ever done to upset the Heaton Depot

Having spoken to a number of commuters on twitter last night on the subject of railbuses the overall feeling is that it is the bouncing that makes this type of train unliked with the public. if only they had put a few extra set of wheels on the cattle trucks.

 

[Blindtraveler]

without getting into a debate with anyboddy, I0have to say that in my humble view there is nothing at all wrong with Pacers which are just a truly great train! There you go!

 

[northwichcat]

What have we ever done to upset the Heaton Depot

DfT allocated the Newcastle area a 150 from LM for extra capacity but the said extra 150 got put on the Harrogate Line instead and Northern sent an ex-FGW 142 to Heaton instead, so I'm sure that upset them.

The honest answer is Northern rearranged the fleets for consistency and Neville Hill officially has no 142s allocated it to - they are all allocated to Newton Heath and Heaton. Similarly the ex-ATN 150s and 156s at Neville Hill moved to Newton Heath with the ex-FNW 153s and 158s moving in the other direction.

 

[tom1649]

I prefer the bus seats, better visibility and more sociable! The ex-Northern Spirit seats are a good halfway house, not too high like the Chapmans on the ATW units. The Merseytravel seats are very uncomfortable though.

As an enthusiast I find them great fun to ride on. They have a bit of character. I can understand regular passengers not liking them, and that they'd rather be on a bland (in my opinion) air conditioned unit with a smooth ride.

 

[northwichcat]

without getting into a debate with anyboddy, I0have to say that in my humble view there is nothing at all wrong with Pacers which are just a truly great train! There you go!

Your profile says you're Scotland's No1 Pacer fan but as there are no Pacers in Scotland I imagine you see them more as an occasional novelty ride on leisure trips. Whereas other people don't get a real choice - it's either a Pacer to work or don't go to work.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

without getting into a debate with anyboddy, I0have to say that in my humble view there is nothing at all wrong with Pacers which are just a truly great train! There you go!

To be fair to the cattle trucks they do get you their in the end and rarely breakdown.

DfT allocated the Newcastle area a 150 from LM for extra capacity but the said extra 150 got put on the Harrogate Line instead and Northern sent an ex-FGW 142 to Heaton instead, so I'm sure that upset them.

The honest answer is Northern rearranged the fleets for consistency and Neville Hill officially has no 142s allocated it to - they are all allocated to Newton Heath and Heaton. Similarly the ex-ATN 150s and 156s at Neville Hill moved to Newton Heath with the ex-FNW 153s and 158s moving in the other direction.

Sounds like they pop all the train numbers in a hat and draw them out

If the sets are been moved all the time how do they book in maintenace ?

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds like they pop all the train numbers in a hat and draw them out

They do.

Diagram 1 is booked for a class 150 and gets a maximum loading of 200. Someone pulls out a ball from the hat and the service gets an ex-ATN 142 with just over 100 seats.

Diagram 2 is booked for a class 142 and gets a maximum loading of 110. Someone pulls out a ball from the hat and the service gets an ex-FNW 156 with 150 seats.

If the sets are been moved all the time how do they book in maintenace ?

Well any 150 you see at Sheffield will go to Newton Heath for maintenance, a 142 could be either Newton Heath or Heaton for maintenance (not sure how they get between Sheffield and Newcastle for that though) while any 144, 153 or 158 would be sent to Neville Hill for maintenance.

 

[ryan125hst]

although a 4/5 car 220 is pretty much rammed in the peak, has people sitting on the roof

Does Heath and Safety know about this?

 

[edwin_m]

There's a report on the RAIB site about a Pacer that lost its transmission while hurtling through Durham on a long-distance ECS move to Heaton. I can't help thinking that was probably the most sustained thrash it had suffered for some time...

 

[tbtc]

a 142 could be either Newton Heath or Heaton for maintenance (not sure how they get between Sheffield and Newcastle for that though)

Anvil1984 posted the schedule for ("overnight") ECS 142 movements from Newcastle to South Yorkshire a while ago on here - most interesting stuff.

Is it just me who gets confused when the three main Northern depots could be abbreviated to NH, NH and H? We need new names! Or we could just rename Heaton "Newcastle Heaton" so that every DMU could carry an NH identifier?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's quite bad. We usually get one of the better examples for the Morecambe slogan. For Harrogate , anything goes.

The 142s I saw might've both been on Harrogates- the only Morecambe service I confirmed was a 150/2. I considered Morecambe as a possibility as they were both in the former Wellington bays so would most likely be heading out via Armley. Suppose one of them might've been a Carlisle but that would be pretty poor planning on the hottest day of the year!

 

[Bevan Price]

DfT allocated the Newcastle area a 150 from LM for extra capacity but the said extra 150 got put on the Harrogate Line instead and Northern sent an ex-FGW 142 to Heaton instead, so I'm sure that upset them.
.

But do any Newcastle area drivers know Class 150s ? Pointless to send them a unit that nobody is allowed to drive.

 

[tbtc]

But do any Newcastle area drivers know Class 150s ? Pointless to send them a unit that nobody is allowed to drive.

I'd agree - makes sense to keep stock types together rather than having a couple of each unit type everywhere.

Heaton only has 142s and 156s which keeps things simple - adding one 150 would complicate things (staff training, allocations, maintenance, parts etc).

 

[northwichcat]

But do any Newcastle area drivers know Class 150s ? Pointless to send them a unit that nobody is allowed to drive.

That wasn't a serious post you're responding to.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Well any 150 you see at Sheffield will go to Newton Heath for maintenance, a 142 could be either Newton Heath or Heaton for maintenance (not sure how they get between Sheffield and Newcastle for that though) while any 144, 153 or 158 would be sent to Neville Hill for maintenance.

That will explain why on some days the 150's are on the Hope Valley services.

 

[CC 72100]

FGWs 143s are preety suited to the Devon Metro - though they usually run in pairs or with a 153

Indeed. I find Pacers perfectly acceptable on the work they do down here, and they're good for views with decent sized windows. Also, for those who complain about their interior -the bits by the doors aren't the best, but they've got the same seating as the FGW 150/2s.

Having had a pair of 153s on the Falmouth branch yesterday with no legroom whatsover, and Okehampton return on Sunday, I know which one I'd prefer by a country mile.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On page 32 of the July edition of "Modern Railways", there is a half-page image of the original BRE-Leyland Railbus.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. I find Pacers perfectly acceptable on the work they do down here, and they're good for views with decent sized windows. Also, for those who complain about their interior -the bits by the doors aren't the best, but they've got the same seating as the FGW 150/2s.

Having had a pair of 153s on the Falmouth branch yesterday with no legroom whatsover, and Okehampton return on Sunday, I know which one I'd prefer by a country mile.

I find the availability of tables makes a 153 preferable to a pacer for longer journeys. And if you've got a double set, you end up with more seats and two toilets (which can be very important towards the end of the day).

 

[CC 72100]

I find the availability of tables makes a 153 preferable to a pacer for longer journeys. And if you've got a double set, you end up with more seats and two toilets (which can be very important towards the end of the day).

I agree on the tables, but the majority of seats aren't at tables. And if you've got someone sat opposite you, it's banging knees all journey. A table by yourself - far enough, but a packed 153 or packed pacer? Again I'd go for the Pacer. Toilets I understand where you're coming from. I don't generally use the loos on local services, but can see how having double the options is preferable.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree on the tables, but the majority of seats aren't at tables. And if you've got someone sat opposite you, it's banging knees all journey. A table by yourself - far enough, but a packed 153 or packed pacer? Again I'd go for the Pacer. Toilets I understand where you're coming from. I don't generally use the loos on local services, but can see how having double the options is preferable.

I agree to the extent that if they do start putting 153's back together as 155's they could certainly do with taking some of the seats out and moving the remaining ones apart a few inches !

 

[Cliveblackpool]

The good bits -
The diesel engine has a fair amount of poke, especially compared with a 153 I traveled on between Derby & Crewe - 0 to 60 in over 5 minutes, when it had to stop again!
Toilets are present and normally work - The motion of a Pacer works a treat!!
Far better than no train!
I like the 3 + 2 seating. More people can sit and legroom is not bad. A friend is 18st and you can still sit together!

Saving Branch lines - lol They were 'designed' for Cornwall, Devon etc, and most branches there are unsuitable for them. Tight curves, steep inclines, resulting wheel slipping, excessive wheel and rail wear.
Going over worn points is like a pot hole!
Originally they were going to refurbish a load of first generation dmu's at Swindon, but a decision was taken to close Swindon Works.
Imo Pacers were a cost cutting, short sighted mistake. An era of 'penny pinching' economies forced on BR by HM Gov with single track, removing loops, and crossovers and closures.
I don't know the difference in price to build a 70mph dmu and a 90mph unit,
but eg joining a mainline with a possible future 100mph speed restriction eg Kirkham to Preston on the South Fylde line could cause delays.

 

[anti-pacer]

Pacers saved the day back in 1985, but in 2013 they're not fit for purpose!

 

[northwichcat]

Pacers saved the day back in 1985

Or did they? They proved unsuitable for some of the routes they were supposed to 'save.' Although, maybe they can be accredited with saving the Penistone Line.

 

[anti-pacer]

Or did they? They proved unsuitable for some of the routes they were supposed to 'save.' Although, maybe they can be accredited with saving the Penistone Line.

This is true. What about the East Lancashire line? Still a hotbed of Pacer operation.