Scotland: Forward thinking with their railways?

[anti-pacer]

I watched a Holyrood debate on BBC Parliament (on catch-up) this morning for a lengthy 2h 30m! Now apart from being bleary eyed after getting up at 5am to watch such an intense debate, it was apparent that Scotland have a real vision for their railways.

With the Borders rail line opening, and the EGIP scheme projected to open up electrification not just on Scotland's busiest inter-city line, but hopefully to both Alloa and Whifflet too, the Scottish government seem to care very much about its passengers and what THEY need.

This coupled with their fairly recent achievements - such as the Airdrie-Bathgate link, procuring new stock in the form of Class 380's, the Paisley Canal electrification, and of course the opening of the Alloa line - show Scotland's commitment to railways.

I sincerely hope that the desired "Rail in the North Executive" gets the go ahead, and we in the North of England can enjoy similar.

That said, I do hope HS2 is built to accommodate those north of the border, and that electrification of the Fife Circle is considered.

What's your thoughts on this?

 

[yorksrob]

Quite. The reopenings in Scotland stand in sharp contrast to the sorry situation in England over the past fifteen years. The sooner the dead hand of Westminster is replaced with locally focused railway planning rhe better.

 

[Railsigns]

The present SNP goverment in Holyrood is far less pro-rail than the coalition government they replaced. It was that Labour/Lib-Dem coalition that delivered legislation to re-open the Larkhall line, the Alloa line, Airdrie-Bathgate, the Borders Railway, Glasgow Airport Rail Link and Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. Immediately on coming to power as a minority government in 2007, the SNP cancelled the rail links to both Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports. Then they cheekily claimed credit for the re-opening of Airdrie-Bathgate.

 

[anti-pacer]

The present SNP goverment in Holyrood is far less pro-rail than the coalition government they replaced. It was that Labour/Lib-Dem coalition that delivered legislation to re-open the Larkhall line, the Alloa line, Airdrie-Bathgate, the Borders Railway, Glasgow Airport Rail Link and Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. Immediately on coming to power as a minority government in 2007, the SNP cancelled the rail links to both Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports. Then they cheekily claimed credit for the re-opening of Airdrie-Bathgate.

Yes, in fairness, I got that impression from the opposition on the points you've just raised whilst watching it.

The SNP were, on more than one occasion, accused of "self-congratulating" themselves on the above.

 

[cf111]

I'm still annoyed at no GARL. I can get a train to Manchester airport from Glasgow Central, but not to Glasgow Airport...

 

[Gareth Marston]

The SNP have a big road building programme to fund.

 

[Railsigns]

The SNP have a big road building programme to fund.

As a big "thank you" to bus tycoon Brian Souter, who's given hundreds of thousands of pounds to the SNP.

 

[class303]

I'm still annoyed at no GARL. I can get a train to Manchester airport from Glasgow Central, but not to Glasgow Airport...

I'm annoyed too. Wasn't this the whole reason why the line was trebled from Glasgow to Paisley? Has there been an increase in Ayrshire/Inverclyde services to warrant it?

 

[steamybrian]

Over the past 20 years there have been a number of new lines completed or reopened to passengers in England-
East London Extensions- Dalston Western Jn- Whitechapel (2010), Surrey Quays-Old Kent Road Jn and Factory Jn-Clapham Jn (2012)
HS1- St. Pancras- Channel Tunnel (and beyond!) (completed 2009)
Kettering-Corby-Manton Jn (2009)
Aylesbury- Aylesbury Vale (2008)
Halifax-Huddersfield (2000)
Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop (1998)
Paddington-Heathrow Airport (1998)
Romsey-Eastleigh (2003)

The total mileage would exceed that opened in Scotland in the same period.

Whilst the Waverley Route is under construction .....work on reopening the Oxford- Bletchley line and the Bicester chord is/will be under construction.

 

[tbtc]

it was apparent that Scotland have a real vision for their railways.

With the Borders rail line opening, and the EGIP scheme projected to open up electrification not just on Scotland's busiest inter-city line, but hopefully to both Alloa and Whifflet too, the Scottish government seem to care very much about its passengers and what THEY need

England and Wales are going to see a large amount of infrastructure investment over the remainder of this decade too - electrification of almost a thousand miles, re-opening the line from Oxford to Bedford, Ordsall Chord etc.

Meanwhile Scotland has seen some projects cancelled (GARL, Edinburgh Airport), done on the cheap (Paisley Canal electrification), pushed into the middle distance (electrification to Alloa/ Dunblane)...

...and as for the Edinburgh Trams... I'm sure most in Edinburgh would look enviously towards Manchester!

 

[A0wen]

Quite. The reopenings in Scotland stand in sharp contrast to the sorry situation in England over the past fifteen years. The sooner the dead hand of Westminster is replaced with locally focused railway planning rhe better.

Outside of the major cities - a change like that would make little if any difference.

At what level would you propose this be managed? County ?

Well, let's look at what that might mean:

Northamptonshire has 3 lines running through it - Chiltern, WCML and MML.

Let's say Northants wants improvements to the WCML but further down the country, Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire want the focus on the ECML - how do you address that?

Alternatively, what about somewhere like Staffordshire? Virtually all the services pass through from destinations further afield - so how do they get anything?

I think you're looking at Scotland through rose-tinted glasses, probably from afar. Scotland is relatively small with the bulk rail journeys taking place between two cities which are under an hour apart - it's a bit like Liverpool and Manchester really.

Somebody else has listed a number of improvements made in 'England & Wales' - I'd also add other improvements such as Croydon Tramlink, extension to the Manchester Metrolink, Crossrail, WCML modernisation, Thameslink improvements as well as numerous new units. Hardly a pattern of neglect.

 

[Eagle]

Over the past 20 years there have been a number of new lines completed or reopened to passengers in England-

Birmingham Snow Hill to Smethwick, 1995
Hednesford to Rugeley TV, 1997-98
Stratford to Tottenham Hale, 2005
Dalston Junction to Shoreditch High Street (vice Broad Street), 2010-11

 

[steamybrian]

Birmingham Snow Hill to Smethwick, 1995
Hednesford to Rugeley TV, 1997-98
Stratford to Tottenham Hale, 2005
Dalston Junction to Shoreditch High Street (vice Broad Street), 2010-11

I will add the opening of the entire Tram system in my former home town of Croydon in 2000
Nottingham Tram system in 2003.
Compared with Scotland still struggling to open their first tram system in Edinburgh.

Finally--Under construction in (under!) London at present is the Cross-Rail system

 

[yorksrob]

Outside of the major cities - a change like that would make little if any difference.

At what level would you propose this be managed? County ?

Well, let's look at what that might mean:

Northamptonshire has 3 lines running through it - Chiltern, WCML and MML.

Let's say Northants wants improvements to the WCML but further down the country, Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire want the focus on the ECML - how do you address that?

Alternatively, what about somewhere like Staffordshire? Virtually all the services pass through from destinations further afield - so how do they get anything?

I think you're looking at Scotland through rose-tinted glasses, probably from afar. Scotland is relatively small with the bulk rail journeys taking place between two cities which are under an hour apart - it's a bit like Liverpool and Manchester really.

Somebody else has listed a number of improvements made in 'England & Wales' - I'd also add other improvements such as Croydon Tramlink, extension to the Manchester Metrolink, Crossrail, WCML modernisation, Thameslink improvements as well as numerous new units. Hardly a pattern of neglect.

Why does it have to be the same as an existing administrative layer of Government ?

WY Metro represents the transport interests of a number of Local Authority areas. I think every area in the Country should be represented by some sort of PTE. Perhaps instead of just the Cities, we should have regional PTE's.

Of the openings mentioned, with the exception of the Robin Hood line (which was reopened in stages between 1994 and 1998, so is actually quite a long time ago) and Corby, all have been in the London & South Eastern commuter area with one in an existing PTE area (which goes to reenforce my point). Westminster has done very little in terms of improving rail connections in the English Regions.

 

[Darren R]

I watched some (but not all) of this debate on telly too, and I came away with an altogether different impression! The SNP government is, as has been mentioned, quite keen on claiming credit where it's not due and denying blame where it is due. The Airdrie - Bathgate line was nothing to do with the present government, and as I understand it the Paisley Canal electrification was essentially a NetworkRail project. The Edinburgh and Glasgow Airport lines have been shelved. EGIP seems to be going badly wrong (although admittedly I haven't been following this in any detail so my perception may be wrong.) And in its own way the Waverley line project seems to be descending into chaos - with the whole project greatly scaled back and handed over to NetworkRail.

To me the Scots Nats revealed their true colours in their attitudes towards not wanting the 'English' rail companies to operate in Scotland. And initially they were not keen on finding the money necessary for the upgrade of the Cally Sleepers to secure their long-term future. It rather looked like they were going to ditch the sleepers, using the major refurbs needed and the costs thereof as the excuse and blaming the Westminster Government for their demise - 'not my fault guv, we'd love to do it but the English wont give us the money.'

Personally I hope the Rail in the North Executive never happens. It would be an unmitigated disaster. What the railways have suffered from most over the decades is too much political interference. The last thing we need is even more on a local level.

Local politicians have shown themselves consistently to be incapable of working with each other. They are too parochial (and often downright childish - when the unitary boroughs came into existence the first act of Lancashire County Council was to put up new road signs saying 'you are now leaving Lancashire/welcome to Lancashire' - a juvenile act which led to a ridiculous waste of money and not a little confusion).

If the Rail in the North Executive ever happens it will end up being constantly beset by in-fighting amongst the councils and PTEs, each demanding the biggest slice of the pie and their own pet projects. There will be no co-operation, no vision, no plan, just petty squabbles. I don't even trust the local council to be able to empty the bins - I sure as Hell don't trust them to be running the railway!

 

[Eagle]

Hednesford to Rugeley is neither in the southeast nor in a PTE area :P Although to be honest it was at least partially funded by Centro.

 

[A0wen]

Why does it have to be the same as an existing administrative layer of Government ?

WY Metro represents the transport interests of a number of Local Authority areas. I think every area in the Country should be represented by some sort of PTE. Perhaps instead of just the Cities, we should have regional PTE's.

Of the openings mentioned, with the exception of the Robin Hood line (which was reopened in stages between 1994 and 1998, so is actually quite a long time ago) and Corby, all have been in the London & South Eastern commuter area with one in an existing PTE area (which goes to reenforce my point). Westminster has done very little in terms of improving rail connections in the English Regions.

Who should run the regional PTEs? Elected or nominated?

How would they be funded?

What powers would they have?

How would you stop a "regional PTE" from having a bias towards one area of its remit?

Why do we need what is effectively another layer of government, employing more people and probably not doing very much?

What do you think a PTE would achieve in Lincolnshire or Northamptonshire or Cornwall that the relevant county councils haven't already done?

Sorry - but I think more government of any kind, but particularly the non-accountable local kind is the exact opposite of what most people want or need.

 

[route:oxford]

I'm still annoyed at no GARL. I can get a train to Manchester airport from Glasgow Central, but not to Glasgow Airport...

You shouldn't have any problems getting from Glasgow Central to Glasgow Prestwick Airport.

In the very near future, you should also be able to get a direct train from Glasgow Central to Birmingham International.

 

[Train Pilchard]

EGIP is now a pathetic immitation of what it was supposed to be.

 

[Morgsie]

All the rail stuff is in the south of Scotland not the north

 

[jones_bangor]

To me the Scots Nats revealed their true colours in their attitudes towards not wanting the 'English' rail companies to operate in Scotland.

Personally I hope the Rail in the North Executive never happens. It would be an unmitigated disaster. What the railways have suffered from most over the decades is too much political interference. The last thing we need is even more on a local level.

Local politicians have shown themselves consistently to be incapable of working with each other.

If the Rail in the North Executive ever happens it will end up being constantly beset by in-fighting amongst the councils and PTEs, each demanding the biggest slice of the pie and their own pet projects. There will be no co-operation, no vision, no plan, just petty squabbles. I don't even trust the local council to be able to empty the bins - I sure as Hell don't trust them to be running the railway!

What a pathetic attempt at justifying the status quo! The Westminster DfT has been the epitomy of the interfering, bureaucratic and nannying approach to rail regulation for decades. The inflexible railway of today, unable to cope with demand at peak times, but carrying fresh air around the country at other times, is their baby.....

At least the Nats as you call them realise this and offer something else.

 

[John07]

The present SNP government in Holyrood is far less pro-rail than the coalition government they replaced. It was that Labour/Lib-Dem coalition that delivered legislation to re-open the Larkhall line, the Alloa line, Airdrie-Bathgate, the Borders Railway, Glasgow Airport Rail Link and Edinburgh Airport Rail Link. Immediately on coming to power as a minority government in 2007, the SNP cancelled the rail links to both Glasgow and Edinburgh Airports. Then they cheekily claimed credit for the re-opening of Airdrie-Bathgate.

You missed out the fact that the SNP tried (and failed) to cancel the Edinburgh Tram project. They also have dragged their feet for some years on the Borders Railway.

They have made a complete pigs ear of the Edinburgh Glasgow Improvement Programme which is now unlikely to be complete until 2018. The promised 10-minute frequency service via Falkirk High is not going to happen. Instead there will be eight-coach trains running at 15-minute intervals but not until 2018.

The loss of the Edinburgh Rail Link is the worst of the cancellations. The tram link replacement from Edinburgh Park and Edinburgh International Gateway will not be adequate for passengers with luggage.

As for the Glasgow Airport Rail Link cancellation, this was a belter. Granted that it was not the best conceived project ever but the changing excuse list was really amusing.

The first excuse was that they did not have the borrowing allowance and hence the Westminster Treasury were to blame. Then it transpired that Network Rail might have been prepared to take the project out of their borrowing allocation.

Then the line shifted to blaming BAA Glasgow. The extra costs involved with relocating the airport fuel farm to run the line in were cited as the reason for cancellation. The figures quoted for this by the Scottish Government were four times the actual cost. I spoke to the surveyor who was seconded to BAA Glasgow and prepared the figures.

Finally the excuse shifted again to saying that it was a rubbish project in the first place. This begs the question as to why the SNP Government waited two years before binning GARL. Especially as most if not all of the work to the main line including the extra platform at Glasgow Central were already completed.

Devolution may have proved to be good for rail developments but the record of the SNP in Government over six years does not inspire confidence.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I watched some (but not all) of this debate on telly too, and I came away with an altogether different impression! The SNP government is, as has been mentioned, quite keen on claiming credit where it's not due and denying blame where it is due. The Airdrie - Bathgate line was nothing to do with the present government, and as I understand it the Paisley Canal electrification was essentially a NetworkRail project. The Edinburgh and Glasgow Airport lines have been shelved. EGIP seems to be going badly wrong (although admittedly I haven't been following this in any detail so my perception may be wrong.) And in its own way the Waverley line project seems to be descending into chaos - with the whole project greatly scaled back and handed over to NetworkRail.

To me the Scots Nats revealed their true colours in their attitudes towards not wanting the 'English' rail companies to operate in Scotland. And initially they were not keen on finding the money necessary for the upgrade of the Cally Sleepers to secure their long-term future. It rather looked like they were going to ditch the sleepers, using the major refurbs needed and the costs thereof as the excuse and blaming the Westminster Government for their demise - 'not my fault guv, we'd love to do it but the English wont give us the money.'

Personally I hope the Rail in the North Executive never happens. It would be an unmitigated disaster. What the railways have suffered from most over the decades is too much political interference. The last thing we need is even more on a local level.

Local politicians have shown themselves consistently to be incapable of working with each other. They are too parochial (and often downright childish - when the unitary boroughs came into existence the first act of Lancashire County Council was to put up new road signs saying 'you are now leaving Lancashire/welcome to Lancashire' - a juvenile act which led to a ridiculous waste of money and not a little confusion).

If the Rail in the North Executive ever happens it will end up being constantly beset by in-fighting amongst the councils and PTEs, each demanding the biggest slice of the pie and their own pet projects. There will be no co-operation, no vision, no plan, just petty squabbles. I don't even trust the local council to be able to empty the bins - I sure as Hell don't trust them to be running the railway!

Perfectly expressed.

 

[yorksrob]

Who should run the regional PTEs? Elected or nominated?

How would they be funded?

What powers would they have?

How would you stop a "regional PTE" from having a bias towards one area of its remit?

Why do we need what is effectively another layer of government, employing more people and probably not doing very much?

What do you think a PTE would achieve in Lincolnshire or Northamptonshire or Cornwall that the relevant county councils haven't already done?

Sorry - but I think more government of any kind, but particularly the non-accountable local kind is the exact opposite of what most people want or need.

We can all spout simplistic ideological mantras such as "more Government bad" but the inescapeable fact is that the PTE model works and brings dynamism to local transport where elsewhere it has stagnated.

There will be gripes and disagreements about where gets what, which will be addressed as they are in todays PTE's, but fundamentally the current structure has failed for too long.

There are various projects that could be given a boost, such as the Brigg line or new links to Ripon for example. Westminster is simply too remote whilst County England isn't quite big enough to perform this function adequately.

 

[tbtc]

Personally I hope the Rail in the North Executive never happens. It would be an unmitigated disaster. What the railways have suffered from most over the decades is too much political interference. The last thing we need is even more on a local level.

Local politicians have shown themselves consistently to be incapable of working with each other. They are too parochial (and often downright childish - when the unitary boroughs came into existence the first act of Lancashire County Council was to put up new road signs saying 'you are now leaving Lancashire/welcome to Lancashire' - a juvenile act which led to a ridiculous waste of money and not a little confusion).

If the Rail in the North Executive ever happens it will end up being constantly beset by in-fighting amongst the councils and PTEs, each demanding the biggest slice of the pie and their own pet projects. There will be no co-operation, no vision, no plan, just petty squabbles. I don't even trust the local council to be able to empty the bins - I sure as Hell don't trust them to be running the railway!

Agreed - it's a recipe for disaster - expect services to be re-routed to suit political whims (rather than where passengers want to go), a lot of tokenism and squabbling.

The current "national" plans (CP5 etc) sound like the way forward, rather than getting into local arguments about whether Leeds gets more cash than Sheffield does.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed - it's a recipe for disaster - expect services to be re-routed to suit political whims (rather than where passengers want to go), a lot of tokenism and squabbling.

The current "national" plans (CP5 etc) sound like the way forward, rather than getting into local arguments about whether Leeds gets more cash than Sheffield does.

If it works, then good, but relying on national government has delivered sod all in the North for the past fifteen years.

 

[anti-pacer]

If it works, then good, but relying on national government has delivered sod all in the North for the past fifteen years.

Well said!

 

[matchmaker]

The SNP have a big road building programme to fund.

Including the A9 dualling. Have you ever driven between Perth & Inverness?

 

[tbtc]

If it works, then good, but relying on national government has delivered sod all in the North for the past fifteen years.

It all depends on the money available for rail.

Whatever that budget, I think I'd trust it to be spent on a national basis rather than seeing PTEs squabbling based on their boundaries.

 

[yorksrob]

It all depends on the money available for rail.

Whatever that budget, I think I'd trust it to be spent on a national basis rather than seeing PTEs squabbling based on their boundaries.

I disagree. There's a place for National Government in big strategic projects, but it's hopeless with local regional needs. The squabbling pte's are precisely why you need a body with a wider reach in the North but I wouldn't trust London with that role as far as I could throw it.

I'd also add that the lack of budget over that period is symptomatic of the lack of interest that London has in the development of regional transport outside the South East.