Why don't SWT Fasts Stop at Clapham Junction

[TEW]

Perhaps I am a little naive, but if I boarded a "fast" train at Waterloo, I would be rather disappointed if it began slowing down minutes after departing to stop at a station which already has plenty of services calling there.
Surely the solution is for a passenger waiting at Clapham Junction wanting a fast train to take the first available train to the first stop where the fast train calls. Clpaham Junction is a little too close to Central London to be a stop for fast trains.
I emphasize that this is my personal opinion with my own expectation of what a fast service should be - a limited stop service.

The first stop other than Clapham Junction for fast services is Woking. The slow service from Clapham Junction-Woking is only two trains an hour, taking about 40 minutes. A fast service from Clapham Junction-Woking takes about 20 minutes. Enough people use Clapham Junction to justify stopping fast trains IMO. Where fast trains stop should be directed by station usage IMO, not how far they are from other stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

Where fast trains stop should be directed by station usage IMO, not how far they are from other stations.

So nothing to do with existing mainline frequencies then? So which 33% of the existing mainline services would you recommend cancelling?

 

[TEW]

I'm not saying that they should call peak line services there, but the poster I quoted seemed to be suggesting that no fast services should call at Clapham Junction, which I can't agree with.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not saying that they should call peak line services there, but the poster I quoted seemed to be suggesting that no fast services should call at Clapham Junction, which I can't agree with.

Ah right, I didn't quite grasp that sorry. As we know there are an adequate number of fast line calls in the inter-peak, (and of course with the pick up only restriction they might not be so well known, unless actually stood at Clapham Jn).

 

[TEW]

I think the number of calls inter-peak is quite good but personally it would be useful if the xx50 Salisbury departure from Waterloo called as well as the xx20 Exeter service. They are generally well used as well in my experience.

 

[radamfi]

The lack of Clapham Junction stops is one of the main reasons why I chose not to live on the Waterloo route and chose the Brighton Line instead. It is possible to travel from the Brighton Line to Woking and beyond on fast trains in the AM peak but not the reverse.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My experience, especially on Southern out of Victoria, but certainly also on SWT out of Waterloo, is that often more people will join at Clapham Junction than the terminus. I've been on Littlehampton / Ore, Exeter (via Salisbury) and Poole services in recent months where this has rather noticeably been the case, albeit off-peak.

 

[infobleep]

I also quoted the NR explanations on the previous page. If infobleep had read the thread he'd have the answers to this weeks version of the questions already...

I did actually read that. However their is a point during the early morning where by SWT stop trains on platform 9 with just 3 minute timetabled gap between them. That is les than 3.5 minutes. It may be that they expect the second time to depart 3.5 minutes later. Which then brings into question what is the departure times of trains. is it dead on the minute or any point up to 59 seconds later, in which case the 3 minute gap holds ok.

The only reason I would like trains to stop at Clapham is because not every train goes to Waterloo. I won't list the number of trains but it's far more than those that go to Waterloo. Clapham Junction just happens to be a good interchange. Do all fast trains out of Liverpool Street ignore Strafford?

As for getting to the next station down. As I pointed out, it adds an hour onto journeys to Poole from Clapham Junction.

Are they making any effort to offer good connections further down for Clapham Junction passengers who need to get further away than just suburban London and beyond.

Perhaps they should do away with Clapham Junction for all fast trains including Southern and make it uniform in that respect.

I am fully aware that 50+ years ago no fast trains listed in the public timetable stopped at Clapham Junction. Not sure when they first started.

 

[swt_passenger]

I did actually read that. However their is a point during the early morning where by SWT stop trains on platform 9 with just 3 minute timetabled gap between them. That is les than 3.5 minutes. It may be that they expect the second time to depart 3.5 minutes later. Which then brings into question what is the departure times of trains. is it dead on the minute or any point up to 59 seconds later, in which case the 3 minute gap holds ok.

They don't run a balanced timetable in terms of numbers of up and down trains. From a check on 'opentraintimes' it looks like the reason they can stop in the contra-peak direction is basically because there are less trains heading through P9.

(opentraintimes advanced view shows the WTT to 1/2 minute accuracy, with 15 down trains 0700-0759, and 19 between 0800 - 0859.)

 

[infobleep]

Looking at National Rail Enquires they are officially two trains during evening peak rush hour where you can change at Surbiton. However in both cases there is a wait of 13 minutes. That is marginally quicker than not changing. In my opinion, given that fast trains do not stop at Clapham Junction, this gap should be 5 minutes. 13 minutes sounds like they are not attempting to make a reasonable connection. Now I know the network is complex so it's far easier for me to say make a connection when I don't have to manage the rest of the timetable.

In the morning for the sole two trains that run, the gap is only 6 or 8 minutes but it takes under 10 minutes longer in journey time. In fact most of the time they are suggesting going to Waterloo and back down but that adds another £5.30 on to the journey costs. Bear in mind in the morning there is no direct train from Woking to Clapham Junction full stop. Not even slow trains.

I've never used open train times before but I looked up slow services that stopped at Clapham Junction on platform 10 and from 7.40 to 8.39 there were 17. However I don't know how many non stop services there were. May be all the non stop slow services from Woking using platforms 8 once they get past Surbition.

I then looked up Southern and platform 15; 17 and 12. For slow services from platform 15, southern only run 11 15 but two of those go to shepherds Bush and beyond. This is for last Thursday morning so I am assuming no cancellations but there may have been as I can't find the 8.12 to Shepherds bush. There appeared to be no trains north from platform 17 that morning but I may have got that wrong. However they only go to Shepherds Bush

For platform 12 there was just 14 trains that stopped at Clapham Junction and there will have been at least another 4 trains that went straight through, which means 18 trains. Of course it may seem like a lot of trains on the Southern line when I'm there but actually it isn't compared to SWT. I guess if Southern ever introduced more trains then they would have to remove the option for trains to stop at Clapham Junction. Of course the Southern network diverts off earlier to other places so they probably couldn't run more trains to Victoria through Clapham Junction.

Although stopping fast trains at Clapham Junction may be physically impossible, I never think there is any harm in relooking into things. I mean they managed to add more trains on to the Victoria line by reducing the gaps between them and also provide air conditioning on some underground lines. Not saying they could reduce the gaps between trains on the mainline but something else might come along. One day technology might make things more possible than they are now.

I did wonder if they could add any extra platforms at Clapham Junction or does platforms 7 and 8 merge into 1 line afterwards onto route to London. In which case the number of lines leaving Clapham Junction from both sides would be the problem. I mean they are adding an extra platform at Gatwick Airport but that is probably more for terminating trains but even so it has to merge afterwards.

Then there was my earlier question as to whether it would be possible to let some fast trains run on the slow line after leaving Wimbledon, in return for some slow line trains running fast beyond Wimbledon? I mean on a fast train it is only 20 minutes from Woking to Clapham but on slow trains it is far longer and changing at Surbiton doesn't help because no fast trains in peak rush hour stop there as far as I am aware so you are just changing from a slow train to another slow train because the existing slow train is then running fast non-stop to London.

If Clapham Junction just didn't have so many connection possibilities this topic wouldn't come up.

 

[455driver]

13 minutes sounds like they are not attempting to make a reasonable connection.

That is because they are not attempting to make a reasonable connection!

I did wonder if they could add any extra platforms at Clapham Junction or does platforms 7 and 8 merge into 1 line afterwards onto route to London.

Have you ever been to Clapham jn?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Then there was my earlier question as to whether it would be possible to let some fast trains run on the slow line after leaving Wimbledon, in return for some slow line trains running fast beyond Wimbledon?

I imagine the problem there is that you'd introduce conflicting movements: Trains getting in the way of each other as they cross from fast to slow lines and vice versa. From experience commuting, trains on the slow lines are often slightly backing up behind each other as it is, so I'd imagine there's no capacity for introducing any conflicting moves.

I do agree with you though that it is a question worth discussing. Fast trains not stopping at Clapham Junction is a serious problem for many people.

 

[455driver]

Then there was my earlier question as to whether it would be possible to let some fast trains run on the slow line after leaving Wimbledon,

There are trains every 3 minutes on the slow lines (roughly), the first ones leave the down slow lines at Raynes Park (more leave at New Malden but the crossover is before the branch point so would be a conflicting move), so which stoppers are you going to cancel to provide the paths for the fast trains to switch onto the slow lines after Wimbledon (but before Surbiton)?
The reason the first fast trains switch to the slows at Surbiton is because the service is thinned out because most of the slow trains are out the way (the slow trains use the down passenger loop, platform 4 anyway leaving the down slow line P3 for the switching fast trains) so there is no conflicting move.

If people actually looked at the situation they would see that there is no viable solution without thinning the service, that isnt going to happen any time soon, some very clever people with computer modelling simulations using the full timetable and train performance have looked at it and cant make it work, why does anyone think there is an easy fix.

Some of the Pompey direct trains are routed via Cobham (non stop obviously) avoiding Woking because there is not the line capacity at Woking, yes the service is that intense.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fast trains not stopping at Clapham Junction is a serious problem for many people.

So cutting the service to provide the line capacity for the fast trains to call at CLJ wont cause serious problems for other people then!
For every 2 trains that call at CLJ you would have to cancel another one, which ones are you going to cancel?

Have you seen the passenger figures for Waterloo, its a bit busy.

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe we could start another thread, but why can't all Virgin West Coast trains stop at Willesden Junction? Why can't all ECML trains stop at Finsbury park? Why can't all GW HSTs call at Ealing Broadway?

Reasonable questions surely?

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe we could start another thread, but why can't all Virgin West Coast trains stop at Willesden Junction? ?

Reasonable questions surely?

'Cos we dont want Pendolinos up the DC lines (retrieves coat)

 

[swt_passenger]

'Cos we dont want Pendolinos up the DC lines (retrieves coat)

Rebuilding a couple of platforms is trivial in comparison to some other 'money is no object' proposals we get here every few days...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Rebuilding a couple of platforms is trivial in comparison to some other 'money is no object' proposals we get here every few days...

I'm sure we had a thread on here a while ago where someone proposed rather seriously that all LM trains should call at rebuilt WCML platforms at Willesden Junction. Unfortunately I've forgotten all other detail of that thread so someone else is going to have to find it

 

[cle]

Could platforms 7 and 8, and the alignments not be redesigned/rebuilt to make this easier - so that 9 was for non-stopping down trains, 8 for stopping down fast trains, 7 for stopping up fast trains, and then a non-stop line to the north/west for through fast up trains. So they could overtake and flight in each direction.

It'd be hard to shift everything over of course, and no doubt people will fall over themselves to say why this is so ridiculous, but it's a solution of sorts. Ideally there would be four platforms, like the new Reading layout. Here we have three, but four lines would work.

 

[Tomnick]

Overtaking shoppers would waste a fair bit of capacity, so I'm not sure that'd solve anything. Easing the approach control arrangements into P7 (flashing yellows?) or doing some work to make that the 'main' route (and easing the speed into and through it) would be relatively easier for probably greater benefits!

 

[swt_passenger]

Easing the approach into P7 would need major alterations to neighbouring property, widening a busy road bridge, and rebuilding a brick lined cutting. Anything on the London side of the station impacts on the access to the depot:

http://goo.gl/maps/Wp0aZ

I should think if any of this was 'relatively easier' they'd have done it years ago...

As it is, the ££billions option F5 in the London and SE RUS proposes a five track route from Surbiton to Waterloo, including realignment through Clapham Jn. From what little info is available it seems likely that the Clapham Jn work is by far the most expensive aspect of the whole plan...

 

[Tomnick]

I should think if any of this was 'relatively easier' they'd have done it years ago...

My "easier" was relative to the suggestion, in the post above mine, that the whole lot be realigned (and an additional line provided north of the loop off the UMF) to allow stoppers to be overtaken whilst calling at Clapham Junction - a tremendous waste of capacity!

 

[QJ]

When I commuted from Basingstoke to London in the late 70s and early 80s there were a lot less "fast" trains calling at Clapham Junction at any part of the day; two or three at most. It was usually change at Woking and again at Surbiton if Clapham Jn was required.

Be grateful that this was changed when SWT took over and a lot more fast trains stop at the Junction these days.

I do miss those REP+8TC combinations that used to run non - stop between London and Southampton though. The toasted bacon sandwiches from the griddle were heaven. Not much use for alighting at Basingstoke though!

 

[PN42]

I am really confused by this thread. Up until July 10th, 1967 when the infamous new timetable was introduced, I took the 07:10 from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham every morning. It stopped at Clapham Junction P8 at 07:58. And it was nearly always dead on time enabling me to catch the 07:59 to Beckenham Jn. And I can assure you I had no trouble getting off the train (a 4SUB in the early 60s and a 4EPB later). Maybe I was young and could jump the 10 feet out of the door down onto the platform.

It was, I think, the only train of the day to stop at P8. And nothing stopped at p7 and I could never understand why p7 existed. So what is all this stuff about p8 all about?

Pardon my cynicism, but it seems that nothing works on the railways any more. And there is always some bogus excuse that we are meant to believe without questioning. Brakes that don't work because of leaves. Timetables that have such built-in slack to make the trains run on time that they must have been invented to counter Mussolini, or to ensure bonuses for railway management. It used to take 19 or 21 minutes from Waterloo to Hinchley Wood in those days. Now it takes well over half an hour - and most of that is not due to slow line running, but to crawling behind slow trains and stopping at nearly every signal. Sorry to go off-topic but there is a pattern here and it nothing to do with the design of platform 8 at Clapham Jn. It's time for the Regulator to get heavy on the operators, stop buying into all their excuses, and tell them he will get someone else to do the job if they won't.

 

[Tomnick]

It used to take 19 or 21 minutes from Waterloo to Hinchley Wood in those days. Now it takes well over half an hour - and most of that is not due to slow line running, but to crawling behind slow trains and stopping at nearly every signal. Sorry to go off-topic but there is a pattern here and it nothing to do with the design of platform 8 at Clapham Jn. It's time for the Regulator to get heavy on the operators, stop buying into all their excuses, and tell them he will get someone else to do the job if they won't.

Perhaps you could present your own proposal for accelerating these particular trains, if they're doing such a bad job of it? It's such a quiet bit of railway too.

 

[NSEFAN]

I am really confused by this thread. Up until July 10th, 1967 when the infamous new timetable was introduced, I took the 07:10 from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham every morning. It stopped at Clapham Junction P8 at 07:58. And it was nearly always dead on time enabling me to catch the 07:59 to Beckenham Jn. And I can assure you I had no trouble getting off the train (a 4SUB in the early 60s and a 4EPB later). Maybe I was young and could jump the 10 feet out of the door down onto the platform.

It was, I think, the only train of the day to stop at P8. And nothing stopped at p7 and I could never understand why p7 existed. So what is all this stuff about p8 all about?

Pardon my cynicism, but it seems that nothing works on the railways any more. And there is always some bogus excuse that we are meant to believe without questioning. Brakes that don't work because of leaves. Timetables that have such built-in slack to make the trains run on time that they must have been invented to counter Mussolini, or to ensure bonuses for railway management. It used to take 19 or 21 minutes from Waterloo to Hinchley Wood in those days. Now it takes well over half an hour - and most of that is not due to slow line running, but to crawling behind slow trains and stopping at nearly every signal. Sorry to go off-topic but there is a pattern here and it nothing to do with the design of platform 8 at Clapham Jn. It's time for the Regulator to get heavy on the operators, stop buying into all their excuses, and tell them he will get someone else to do the job if they won't.

The dwell time in stations for a 4SUB would have been a lot shorter, as people typically started getting off before the train had stopped. Not officially allowed or good practice, but it made things faster when compared to a Desiro.

The railway is also busier than it was back then. There are plans I believe for a bidirectional relief line between Surbiton and Waterloo. Once this is installed it might be possible to have peak trains calling at Clapham Junction again. In the meantime it's unlikely anything will happen.

If everything's running on time, then you probably could have at least some trains calling at Clapham Junction in the peak. The real world however won't allow for perfect time keeping so some padding has to be added to allow the service to recover. Back in 1967, the railway wasn't punished for late trains. Nowadays they get fined heavily for every delay minute. This has forced the rail industry to consider its timetabling more carefully, and consequently timetables have in a many cases ended up slower because it makes them more reliable.

 

[Monty]

And there is always some bogus excuse that we are meant to believe without questioning. Brakes that don't work because of leaves.

If you can make a such a sweeping statement and believe it to be true then I would say your knowledge on railway engineering and how it works is poor. Without going off on a tangent there is slightly more to it than "leaves on the line = it goes tits up". Disruption from leaf fall is unfortunately a result of the industry moving away from mechanical signalling systems to electrical ones that are more sensitive to the elements and more importantly because the lineside are no longer kept clear of trees since the demise of the steam locomotive.

It used to take 19 or 21 minutes from Waterloo to Hinchley Wood in those days. Now it takes well over half an hour - and most of that idue to slow line running, but to crawling behind slow trains and stopping at nearly every signal. Sorry to go off-topic but there is a pattern here and it nothing to do with the design of platform 8 at Clapham Jn. It's time for the Regulator to get heavy on the operators, stop buying into all their excuses, and tell them he will get someone else to do the job if they won't.

In most cases it's the TOC who have to go to Network Rail or the regulator to get permission to run a service and if it's deemed there is insuffient capacity it is vetoed. Contray to what the media says its not always the TOCs who are at blame its the bureaucracy and inflexibility of the system.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I am really confused by this thread. Up until July 10th, 1967 when the infamous new timetable was introduced, I took the 07:10 from Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham every morning. It stopped at Clapham Junction P8 at 07:58. And it was nearly always dead on time enabling me to catch the 07:59 to Beckenham Jn. And I can assure you I had no trouble getting off the train (a 4SUB in the early 60s and a 4EPB later). Maybe I was young and could jump the 10 feet out of the door down onto the platform.

It was, I think, the only train of the day to stop at P8. And nothing stopped at p7 and I could never understand why p7 existed. So what is all this stuff about p8 all about?

Pardon my cynicism, but it seems that nothing works on the railways any more. And there is always some bogus excuse that we are meant to believe without questioning. Brakes that don't work because of leaves. Timetables that have such built-in slack to make the trains run on time that they must have been invented to counter Mussolini, or to ensure bonuses for railway management. It used to take 19 or 21 minutes from Waterloo to Hinchley Wood in those days. Now it takes well over half an hour - and most of that is not due to slow line running, but to crawling behind slow trains and stopping at nearly every signal. Sorry to go off-topic but there is a pattern here and it nothing to do with the design of platform 8 at Clapham Jn. It's time for the Regulator to get heavy on the operators, stop buying into all their excuses, and tell them he will get someone else to do the job if they won't.

Anyone who thinks that a change of operator will improve their service is very misguided. 1967 was nearly 50 years ago, the world has moved on and legislation changes-particularly in respect of health and safety regulations and disability regulations which are the prime reasons why platform 8 at Clapham is not used. If SWT started stopping peak time trains at P8 it would be only a day or two before somebody went down the gap between the train and platform, you may be happy with such a slack type of operation but I don't see anybody else that is. Only one person has died in railway accidents in the last nine years, in 1967 it was fifty six people in just one year, I'd call that progress.

 

[TheWalrus]

Rebuilding platforms at Willesden would make sense in the respect that it could be a useful interchange if trains are currently unable to call. However I can't see Virgin stopping there! Maybe LM.

In regards to Clapham I would suggest the best solution would be to stop select fast services out pick up only and in set down only, saving people getting on for Waterloo.

 

[TEW]

That is what happens in the off-peak, but there are simply too many trains running in the peaks to fit in Clapham stops.

 

[TheWalrus]

I supposebut if you are travelling to say Poole or exeter you probably won't travel in the peaks unless you commute from those areas to Clapham, where it's probably easier to go via Waterloo if the calls aren't available.