Future of Class 315

[Surreyman]

With Crossrail on the way and the announcement about Tfl taking over the West Anglia suburban routes, replacement of Class 315 by 2019 seems very likely.
(will be 40 years old by 2020).
61 units, can anyone tell me if the numbers crunch?
( I am making the assumption that Tfl will order new trains between 2014 - 2018).

 

[anthony263]

Up to 30 class 315's are likely to be overhualed/refurbished for use on the Cardiff Valley lines network from 2018 although I dont think they will be around for too long before being replaced by other cascaded emu's.

 

[jopsuk]

As time goes on, there's less and less chance of them going to Wales I reckon.

The Lee Valley routes that they're currently used on use some 317s. If the franchise is being split, so that Stansted Express, Cambridge (plus Ely and Kings Lynn peak time), Stratford-Stortford and even Hertford East are not going TfL, but instead sticking with the Greater Anglia franchise area (whoever wins that), then the interworking will need to end.

To this end, with the timescale hopefully seeing the Crossrail stock enter service on the Shenfield Metro, I can see the Lee Valley metro being entirely 315, using the best of the fleet with others stripped for spares.

 

[anthony263]

If that is true then something will have to replace the 315's on the Cardiff Valleys.

Either brand new stock perhaps as an add on to a merseyrail order if Bombardier or Hitachi are wanting work for their factories I am sure perhaps they might be willing to do a deal with the welsh government.


If the GW gets brand new emu's for the Thames Valley region instead of the proposed class 319's will there be enough class 319's to work on the Cardiff valleys especially if they are re-geared to 75mph and reduced to 3 carriage units running in pairs on some of the busiest lines.

That said if the Coryton branch and the cityline are transfered to tram-train operation that may reduce the number of emu's required.

 

[prod_pep]

Wasn't a cost evaluation done concerning the Cardiff electrification using 315 cascades as the potential stock? There's no reason why they couldn't be split between Cardiff and the Lea Valley once Crossrail is ready.

The Chingford/Cheshunt/Enfield branches would surely require less than 30 sets - I think it is something like 18 Class 315 diagrams currently with a few 317 formations in peak hours.

 

[150001]

Personally I'd just scrap the 315s now; old stock that really doesn't create a great image for british railways. Realistically and unfortunately they'll be done up and still be used, but I'm a little fed up of all this old stock that is transferring around our rails.

 

[starrymarkb]

Personally I'd just scrap the 315s now; old stock that really doesn't create a great image for british railways. Realistically and unfortunately they'll be done up and still be used, but I'm a little fed up of all this old stock that is transferring around our rails.

There is a method to it. By using second hand stock on marginal electrification schemes you can get the scheme past the bean counters in the Treasury - once the wires have been up for a couple of years you order new stock.

See schemes under BR around Manchester and Leeds, cascaded stock used to start the service, then new build arrives a few years later.

 

[EM2]

Personally, I find the 315s excellent mechanically, they accelerate well, seem stable at speed and (in my experience) rarely fail.
But the interiors need ripping out completely and rebuilding. Something like Southern's 313s or SWT's 455s would be nice. Add in some WiFi & air conditiong, and they'd be just right.

 

[delt1c]

Personally I'd just scrap the 315s now; old stock that really doesn't create a great image for british railways. Realistically and unfortunately they'll be done up and still be used, but I'm a little fed up of all this old stock that is transferring around our rails.

correct me if i am wrong, is the object not getting bums on seats and to destination. Now the 315's are very efficient and reliable units and undertake their task efficiently day in and day out. customers want an efficient transport system and if the 315 can provide that ( and they currently do) why scrap them ? or is bums on seats different in Wales than the South East

 

[jon0844]

They don't look as nice inside as a 313 but if they're mechanically the same then what's wrong with them? Give them a refurbishment and everyone will be happy.

Ultimately people want reliable trains. They don't even look ancient from the outside.

 

[Eagle]

Personally I'd just scrap the 315s now; old stock that really doesn't create a great image for british railways. Realistically and unfortunately they'll be done up and still be used, but I'm a little fed up of all this old stock that is transferring around our rails.

They're significantly less old than HSTs. Or are you suggesting those be scrapped too?

 

[tbtc]

Has there ever been anything official about 315s going to Wales?

Or are people just assuming that it'll happen (because Crossrail will free up some 315s and electrification will mean Wales requires some EMUs)?

 

[anthony263]

Has there ever been anything official about 315s going to Wales?

Or are people just assuming that it'll happen (because Crossrail will free up some 315s and electrification will mean Wales requires some EMUs)?

I seem to remember reading a document/press release talking about the business case for the electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines which mentioned using the class 315's casaded from London/east anglia as it offeres the best business case compared to ordering brand new emu's right from the go or not electrifying and ordering new dmu's i.e. class 172's.

If I can find it I will post it.

Even a few of the various railway magazines have stated that it will be class 315's

 

[150001]

Ok, I take back my point now! Just had a look again at the SWT 455s and if the 315s could be refurbed to that standard then that would be excellent and if new stock could be ordered later on then fine. They'd be better than pacers anyday! I didn't know that they were mechanically excellent so I've been ignorant here too.

 

[Manchester77]

The 313s aren't actually that bad internally. Obviously the Sputhern refurbishment is superior to the FCC refurbishment however they're by no means a MerseyRail pacer
Southern 313 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/seadipper/5159707714/

 

[anthony263]

I agree about the point raised with the interiors of the class 315's even those refurbished recently still look like they could be done better.

The class 315's will need to be fitted with an accessible toilet before they enter service on the Cardiff Valleys so I do hope the opportunity if taken to get rid of the 3 + 2 seating.

 

[150001]

Whilst getting rid of the 3+2 seating, they could fit air con too.

 

[EssexGonzo]

My regular 0701 from SNF to LST fast service unusually is a 315 instead of a 321 and it does appear to feel smoother and quieter at speed that the average (newer?) 321.

Just needs aircon.

I suppose once Cross rail launches then the slower TFL CR line will get shiny new trains and we'll be left with 321s on the fast line.

 

[tbtc]

I seem to remember reading a document/press release talking about the business case for the electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines which mentioned using the class 315's casaded from London/east anglia as it offeres the best business case compared to ordering brand new emu's right from the go or not electrifying and ordering new dmu's i.e. class 172's.

If I can find it I will post it.

Even a few of the various railway magazines have stated that it will be class 315's

That's the thing. There's potentially going to be a lot of "spare" EMUs in/around London by the end of the decade - 315, 317, 319, 321, 360, 365 etc.

Some of them will no doubt stay around London (e.g. I'd bet on the 360s on Heathrow Connect duties moving to the GEML where the other members of that small class live), but this could lead to further cascades (for example if Southern keep getting extra 377 orders tagged on, they may have sufficient to replace their 313s once 700s are running through the Thameslink core instead of some 377s).

Yet there seems to be a general acceptance/ assumption that it'll be 315s to South Wales and 365s to Transpennine. I couldn't think that I'd seen anything official about either of them (notwithstanding the general principle of cascading EMUs to improve the business case for newly electrified lines)

 

[Class377/5]

That's the thing. There's potentially going to be a lot of "spare" EMUs in/around London by the end of the decade - 315, 317, 319, 321, 360, 365 etc.

Some of them will no doubt stay around London (e.g. I'd bet on the 360s on Heathrow Connect duties moving to the GEML where the other members of that small class live), but this could lead to further cascades (for example if Southern keep getting extra 377 orders tagged on, they may have sufficient to replace their 313s once 700s are running through the Thameslink core instead of some 377s).

Yet there seems to be a general acceptance/ assumption that it'll be 315s to South Wales and 365s to Transpennine. I couldn't think that I'd seen anything official about either of them (notwithstanding the general principle of cascading EMUs to improve the business case for newly electrified lines)

The 313 with Southern are expected to go over to GN services as they require an extra five units daily with the KO2 timetable. Also the 365 are not expect to be released as they whole fleet is still needed post KO2, its the 321, 317 and 319 that are going spare.

The 377/6 & /7 will stay as they are needed for 10 car metro services and Southern don't have enough 377/3's to achieve that. Likewise the 2tph 8 car Croydon - Milton Keynes requires the 377/5 fleet.

The whole 365 thing is a left over as originally rumors were they we to go GWML, as the only official document seen so far stated they are staying with GN services. However their new livery should get tongues wagging.


Did the Welsh Assembly state something about the 315's?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Would be strange for me if they go.I started my career on them and the 302-312 slammers in 1982.

 

[Skimble19]

The whole 365 thing is a left over as originally rumors were they we to go GWML, as the only official document seen so far stated they are staying with GN services. However their new livery should get tongues wagging.

Ahh, you've got me interested now.. I must admit I was surprised that 365 519 returned in its ex-wagn advertising livery.. I'm guessing a new livery is in the works based on your comments though?

 

[Surreyman]

That's the thing. There's potentially going to be a lot of "spare" EMUs in/around London by the end of the decade - 315, 317, 319, 321, 360, 365 etc.

Some of them will no doubt stay around London (e.g. I'd bet on the 360s on Heathrow Connect duties moving to the GEML where the other members of that small class live), but this could lead to further cascades (for example if Southern keep getting extra 377 orders tagged on, they may have sufficient to replace their 313s once 700s are running through the Thameslink core instead of some 377s).

Yet there seems to be a general acceptance/ assumption that it'll be 315s to South Wales and 365s to Transpennine. I couldn't think that I'd seen anything official about either of them (notwithstanding the general principle of cascading EMUs to improve the business case for newly electrified lines)

I was hoping (come 2018) that they would be scrapped!

 

[CardiffKid]

I seem to remember reading a document/press release talking about the business case for the electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines which mentioned using the class 315's casaded from London/east anglia as it offeres the best business case compared to ordering brand new emu's right from the go or not electrifying and ordering new dmu's i.e. class 172's.

If I can find it I will post it.

Even a few of the various railway magazines have stated that it will be class 315's

See page from 17 onwards:
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/policy/electrification/120830vleobc.pdf

 

[Class377/5]

Ahh, you've got me interested now.. I must admit I was surprised that 365 519 returned in its ex-wagn advertising livery.. I'm guessing a new livery is in the works based on your comments though?

I can't say more but it was a surprise.

 

[150001]

I was hoping (come 2018) that they would be scrapped!

I had the same thoughts too! Thanks for posting the report PaulHarding150, interesting read. I saw in the report this comment

"By the end of the existing franchise period, the existing fleet will be in excess of 30 years old and nearing the end of its useful life. During the next franchise, the cost of renewing units and replacing parts for the existing fleet will become uneconomic and the units will need to be replaced."

This statement refers to the Pacers and Sprinters, which are younger than 315s. Surely you would have the same issue with the 315s which by that time will also be needing more replacement parts etc unless the 315s are remotored and new parts fitted.

 

[tbtc]

I had the same thoughts too! Thanks for posting the report PaulHarding150, interesting read. I saw in the report this comment

"By the end of the existing franchise period, the existing fleet will be in excess of 30 years old and nearing the end of its useful life. During the next franchise, the cost of renewing units and replacing parts for the existing fleet will become uneconomic and the units will need to be replaced."

This statement refers to the Pacers and Sprinters, which are younger than 315s. Surely you would have the same issue with the 315s which by that time will also be needing more replacement parts etc unless the 315s are remotored and new parts fitted.

EMUs tend to have a lot fewer parts to go wrong, and should last at least a decade longer than a comparable DMU.

 

[Aictos]

I can't say more but it was a surprise.

I've also heard of this new paint job too IIRC from my source who's usually on the ball when the 365s go in for the full works, they will lose the existing FCC livery and have this new livery instead.

I've not seen any pics of what it looks like but I've had it described to me.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

See page from 17 onwards:
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/policy/electrification/120830vleobc.pdf

315s are only used as an example of cascaded stock, among other options.
The report favours 3-car EMUs, and the preferred option is to use cascaded legacy stock.
However, it does not seem to take into account the upgrades necessary for a significant life extension.
New 378s (or similar) are also mentioned, but again only as an example of a modern metro EMU.
A fleet size of 45 units is mentioned, operated as 3/6-car sets.
Anyway it's 6 years before any are needed, so no rush to decide.
The report was formulated before the decision to electrify all the Valley lines, so there are diesel options discussed as well.

 

[Skimble19]

I've also heard of this new paint job too IIRC from my source who's usually on the ball when the 365s go in for the full works, they will lose the existing FCC livery and have this new livery instead.

I've not seen any pics of what it looks like but I've had it described to me.

Hmmm, as long as it's not the same one from the Siemens Press releases on the new Class 700s!