Serious ticketing problem (Thank you Virgin WC!)

[Death]

Hail All!
Apologies for not posting in ages, but I've been rushed all over the place in more recent times and alas it shows no sign of slowing up yet. Anyhow, I have a serious issue that I need help with...

Earlier today, I bought a Y-P Saver Return at Bangor valid from Chester to Farnborough (As I already held a ticket valid from Bangor to Chester) with the intention of using the return portion for a possible outward journey back to North Wales within the next month. I caught the 10:18 VWC Voyager (1A46 I think) from Bangor after buying the ticket.

Shortly after passing Llandudno Jct, I presented my tickets for inspection. However, the guard only went and clipped the return portion of my ticket, didn't she? :banghead:
I noticed this almost immediateley and called her back, pointing out her mistake and saying that I wanted my return portion reissued as with the clip it was no longer valid. Insted of getting her APTIS machine out and reprinting my ticket like she should've done, all she did was clip the outward portion of my ticket (At least she got that part right! ) and draw a ring around the clip on my return portion (WTF?). cratch:

I didn't get a chance to discuss it with her later in the journey (It was an overloaded run, she was very busy, and didn't come around after Crewe) and upon returning home I made several phone calls to VT and ANW to see if I could get my accidentally invalidated ticket cancelled and a new one issued. No dice - All I obtained were instructions to purchase the same ticket again and send both sets of tickets into VWC for a refund.
All very well in theory...But when the Royal Mail can't be trusted with so much as a postcard, and I don't have the cash to buy that second ticket anyway, I'm stuck in a bit of a Catch-22 situation! :mumum:

Anyhow...If the worst comes to the worst, I shall still be using this ticket - Irrespective of the fact that it's been clipped - As I know full well that I have not yet taken the return journey that VWC have effectively (Albeit accidentally) stolen from me. And no word of a penalty fare or whatever else will stop me as my journey is a completely legal and paid-up one! :mad:

To all VWC/VXC/SWT guards and RPOs:
If ye see a Metalhead travelling around with what looks like a used return from Farnborough to Chester valid until 16/09/2007 with the clip code V966 1708WC1A46 (Slightly smudged on return and completely smudged on outward portion) please make a note that this portion has been clipped in error and should be taken as valid until clipped again - Thanks.

To anyone who works operations at VWC/VXC:
PLEASE can ye change the ink used in your ticket clips as it gets literally everywhere - Fingers, backs of railcards, and other tickets to name but a few places. Try and find an ink that'll dry instantly and won't cause the print to smudge as sometimes (I.E: In this case) passengers need those clip codes for future referance! :eek:

And on a slightly related but not as major issue: I have the return portion of a Y-P Saver Return ticket valid from Haverfordwest to Farnborough that's OK until the 9th September and is unlikely to be used by myself. Is it legal for me to sell this to another Y-P Railcard holder via eBay?

Farewell...And thanks for any help that ye can offer!
>> Death <<

 

[rail-britain]

Your return ticket is stamped for :
a specific member of staff
specific route
specific train

The Train Manager should have explained that providing you keep the outward and return ticket together, then your return portion will be valid
I would have recommended that you contact VT on arrival at your destination, and if not a VT station, contact VT directly advising that a replacement return ticket may be required
Again, they should advise you to staple both portions of the ticket together

1A46 :
09:50 Holyhead - Euston

 

[Nick W]

Surely if both tickets have the same grip, common sense states that one was gripped in error.

 

[westcoaster]

all tickets are non transferable , y not take it to a ticket and get the return part refunded on the h-west to f-boro ticket

 

[Death]

Hail again!

Your return ticket is stamped for:
a specific member of staff
specific route
specific train

Surely if both tickets have the same grip, common sense states that one was gripped in error.

Here lies one particular problem (And hence why I mentioned about the ink on VWC clips) - The clip code is smudged on both tickets - Despite my taking as much care as possible to prevent this at the time - Meaning that the two cannot really be compared. The visible bits are pretty much different, and I had to look at both clips to obtain the full number for my post above... ad:

• Outward portion clip: V966 **********
• Return portion clip: **** 1708WC1A46

And the first digit (One) on the return portion is slightly smudged too...It could look like a seven if there wasn't one right next to it to compare it to. :eek:

If both clips were fully legible, then this wouldn't be such a problem. Alas, as they have been smudged (Again, through no fault of my own - She must've mishandled them) this possibility no longer applies - Hence my desire to have my incorrectly clipped ticket reissued. :eek:

I will say this though...If I lose this journey through the incompetance of a certain member of VWC staff (After all, she didn't reissue my ticket like she should've done! :mad, then I may well consider taking further action against VWC - As they aren't giving me something that I have paid for and have a full right to make use of! :mumum:

Farewell...And thanks for thy help thus far!
>> Death <<

 

[rail-britain]

Don't know how much time you had at Chester or Farnborough but a quick visit to either Travel Centre / Ticket Office would have cleared up any problem, and may have resulted in a replacement ticket being issued

I had it happen to me once before and a duplicate return ticket was issued, the first time I had seen one!

A few weeks ago I had booked a Glasgow - Milton Keynes journey, but it was cheaper to split it at Crewe, resulting in four tickets
I noticed that one was misprinted, with Crewe - Milton Keynes and reservation Milton Keynes - Crewe
The staff at Glasgow Central Travel Centre wrote a comment on the back then stamped it, rather than issuing a duplicate replacement
However, on arriving at Milton Keynes the gate staff refused me entry to the platform, even though I took the ticket back and turned it over
I had to return back to the Travel Centre and the staff there also stamped the ticket!

 

[westcoaster]

on board staff cant re-issue tickets like you say , only ticket office's but im not to sure about that, in fareness she did circle it , that and an explanation would be good enough for me

 

[me123]

On FSR, they rarely stamp and if they do, you can wipe ot off with your finger . Pointless, and pro-fare-dodging.

 

[Death]

Hail again!

all tickets are non transferable , y not take it to a ticket and get the return part refunded on the h-west to f-boro ticket

I tried using the return portion as part payment for my ticket at Bangor this morning: No success.
Tried to obtain a refund for the return portion upon arrival at Farnborough Main this afternoon: Was told that a refund wasn't possible as I'd already used the outward portion.

Network Rail really ought to add ticketing support for "triangular" and other multi-point journeys...I don't know about other people, but I find that I make a lot of them! :eek:

Don't know how much time you had at Chester or Farnborough but a quick visit to either Travel Centre / Ticket Office would have cleared up any problem, and may have resulted in a replacement ticket being issued

I presented the ticket in question upon arrival at Farnborough Main this afternoon and explained what had happened, and was told that they could not re-issue it and I would have to call VWC. If I'd have known beforehand that I was going to spend £5.00+ on phone calls to Virgin trying to get this sorted, then I would have carried on to Basingstoke and seen if there was a VXC representative there that I could have spoken to! :banghead:

on board staff cant re-issue tickets like you say , only ticket office's but im not to sure about that, in fareness she did circle it , that and an explanation would be good enough for me

Aye, it would be good enough for me too if the clips on both tickets were legible, un-smudged and could be compared by anyone inspecting them. However, the print on the outward portion is just a blue blob now...Given that V966 stamps tickets in the top-right corner, I have a feeling that the feed belts on the LuL ticket gates I used (Which IIRC would handle the ticket right on where the clip print is) could have smudged the ink like that.

As this is an issue with VWC at fault: My current plan is to go back to Farnborough tomorrow, explain the situation to the station manager there who can do a silk arrangement (Do those still exist?) with VWC for me to travel to Euston to get this issue resolved with them. Given my mood over this whole situation, I may well wear my bracer with the 6" spikes on it for a little more persuasion power...So if you're an RPO or TSO and ye see me around the Southampton Main tomorrow, you'll already know exactly why I'll be looking like a steel and leather Hedgehog!

By the by: If anyone knows who V966 is, please could ye send me her name (And how long she's worked for VWC if ye know it) by PM? It'll be much easier to refer to and deal with someone by name than number.

Farewell...And thanks yet again!
>> Death <<

 

[rail-britain]

Most fares in the FSR area are for one day only, so if they are re-used it is not that great a loss
Equally, not all staff have been issued with ticket inspection stamps
With most of the major stations now coverd by automated gates high value fraud is quite rare, usually more detectable on internal fraud now

 

[First ScotRail]

Most fares in the FSR area are for one day only, so if they are re-used it is not that great a loss
Equally, not all staff have been issued with ticket inspection stamps
With most of the major stations now coverd by automated gates high value fraud is quite rare, usually more detectable on internal fraud now

They are instructed to circle the date on all tickets. Ticket examiners just quite simply do as they wish... the fraud levels at fsr have come down a lot since the introduction of ticket gates at stations and i would expect to see more gates deployed at other stations as part of the small rail fund 2 or 3.

 

[rail-britain]

They are instructed to circle the date on all tickets. Ticket examiners just quite simply do as they wish

Most of these tickets will be singles, day returns, or one day tickets
The likelyhood of fraud is very slight
On some tickets there is no point showing it has been inspected as it may already have been read by the automated gate, but sadly some of the staff may be unaware of this and allow the passenger to pass, and even if the ticket had had the date circled what is to say that this was as a result of the on-board ticket examination

The tickets I purchase from Glasgow Central Travel Centre always have the date circled, and that can be a good few days or weeks before they are valid!

 

[me123]

Ticket examiners just quite simply do as they wish...

Case: Tonight I returned home by train. I showed the guard my ticket and fumbled with my YP Railcard. He saw the orange colour and nodded. Unacceptable on a nearly empty train IMO. (nb This is just my opinion and no one elses).

I have in the past deliberately produced a wrong ticket when I see them not bothering (having purchased a valid ticket before boarding) to see if they notice and have not been stopped once. (If challenged, I would have happily produced my real ticket).

I can understand on morning commuter trains that the guards simply do not have time to check everyone's ticket, but when there are 5 people on the train a check to see that the ticket is valid today for this route shouldn't be too much of a problem, should it?

Any guards who now hate me, sorry. Most ticket inspectors are good, but a few just can;t be bothered it seems to me. And, as has already been said, barriers and ticket examiners at stations in the Glasgow Area prevents a great loss of income anyway.

 

[rail-britain]

Case: Tonight I returned home by train. I showed the guard my ticket and fumbled with my YP Railcard. He saw the orange colour and nodded. Unacceptable on a nearly empty train IMO. (nb This is just my opinion and no one elses)

The same was true when I worked on ICEC
As a Senior Conductor I asked for and checked all tickets and railcards, irrespective
I knew of several other Senior Conductors who just checked that people actually had a ticket, never mind if it was out of date or invalid

This may be due to the incentives offered and processed by FSR
If a passenger presents a ticket, then the chances of a commission are greatly reduced
Equally, due to the non-confrontation policy even if the ticket is out of date, the only way to resolve it would be delay the train whilst the crew wait for the BTP to attend
It is easier to operate bulk ticket checks and hope people pay before reaching the barrier check

I regularly park my car and walk through NCP Oswald Street to get to Glasgow Central
You can walk through the barrier check on to the station without any problem, but you then reach another one to get off the platform, and it can turn into a farce sometimes trying to explain you have not travelled, you are simply accessing the station from the NCP, and it can be the same getting back to the NCP from the station!

 

[Lewisham2221]

As already mentioned in part by various other people, if you show the incorrectly stamped ticket - indicating the circled stamp - and explain the situation to the train manager before boarding the train you should be fine (from my experience, if you have a ticket that has questionable validity for your journey and you enquire with the TM before boarding you're generally ok).

The stamp code you've got that is legible on the return portion shows the date and headcode of the train, it's pretty damn unlikely that you used the return portion of a Chester - Farnborough ticket on a Holyhead - Euston train on the day of purchase! so should be simple enough to explain to the TM.

 

[adambro]

I appreciate this isn't your fault but can't help asking why you gave the guard the return portion? Was it that it was printed on one of the machines where the out and return portions are connected?

 

[W14Fishbourne]

I appreciate this isn't your fault but can't help asking why you gave the guard the return portion? Was it that it was printed on one of the machines where the out and return portions are connected?

No, he didn't buy it from a ticket machine, did he.

 

[adambro]

No, he didn't buy it from a ticket machine, did he.

Not sure what you mean. I'd presume a ticket machine would be involved in the transaction somehow!:???:

 

[W14Fishbourne]

Hail again! I tried using the return portion as part payment for my ticket at Bangor this morning: No success.
Tried to obtain a refund for the return portion upon arrival at Farnborough Main this afternoon: Was told that a refund wasn't possible as I'd already used the outward portion.

Saver Return tickets are usually only priced at £1 more than the single so, having used the outward portion, your refund would be based on the cost of the Saver Return less the cost of the Saver Single you should have bought. You would therefore only be entitled to a refund of £1, for which you would be charged the admin fee of £5/£10.

Network Rail really ought to add ticketing support for "triangular" and other multi-point journeys...I don't know about other people, but I find that I make a lot of them!

The TOCs proposed to introduce Saver Singles at half the price of the Saver Returns, as part of Saver Deregulation. This would have allowed you to mix and match different tickets for each leg of a journey and would have facilitated triangular journeys. However, the government blocked Saver Deregulation.

...then I would have carried on to Basingstoke and seen if there was a VXC representative there that I could have spoken to!

There wouldn't be. Basingstoke is an SWT station. VXC don't have any stations or station staff.

As this is an issue with VWC at fault: My current plan is to go back to Farnborough tomorrow, explain the situation to the station manager there who can do a silk arrangement (Do those still exist?) with VWC for me to travel to Euston to get this issue resolved with them.

I don't know how you got on but silk arrangements are for those occasions when someone else (eg friend or relative) pays remotely for your ticket (plus an admin charge). I doubt whether you'd have got one in these circumstances.

Not sure what you mean. I'd presume a ticket machine would be involved in the transaction somehow!:???:

He bought a Y-P Saver Return at Bangor valid from Chester to Farnborough so he couldn't have bought it from a self-service machine. AFAIK the ticket office machines aren't Tributes, and they (together with some Avantix Mobiles) are the only other ones that use fanfold stock.

 

[Death]

Hail All!
Just a quick note to say that I managed to resolve the situation today without much hassle. I explained the situation to an RPO at Farnborough Station and he kindly wrote a simple note on the back of the ticket (Stating that it was punched in error and thus still valid) and signed it. I also noticed at the same time that the clip on the Bangor > Chester ticket that I was also using is 100% legible, so provided I keep the four tickets together then all should be well.

How the guard got hold of my return portion? I was juggling four ticket portions that had been in my Y-P Railcard holder, and had placed them on the table in front of me to sort out which ones to present to her (My normal method if I'm having to "bolt tickets together" to make a direct journey).
She simply reached for all four off of the table and probabally (Albeit incorrectly) stamped the return portion to Farnborough out of instinct as she'd (Correctly) stamped the return portion to Chester.

W14 Fishbourne: I don't know too much about ticket machines, but the ones in use at Bangor ticket office look like the model that do a thermal print onto fan-fold - So possibly a Tribute system there. (And I havn't seen ANY stations still using the old Thorn dot-matrix machines for at least a year.)

All I need to do now is write a letter to Virgin Water Closet stating:

1. My dissatisfaction about how the guard dealt with her mistake,
2. My suggestion that a different ink is used in ticket clips if passengers might have to rely on them in this manner,
3. My request for a refund of the £6.00 or so that I spent in making phone calls to Virgin yesterday, trying to sort the whole situation out!

Farewell, and many thanks again!
>> Death <<

 

[djw1981]

Why this sudden use of ink rather than the old handheld hole punch?

VXC just handwrite a number - headcode? or staffcode? on the ticket

 

[me123]

Why this sudden use of ink rather than the old handheld hole punch?

VXC just handwrite a number - headcode? or staffcode? on the ticket

Last time I was on VXC, the ticket man clamped my ticket with a stamp which actually indented the ticket and, naturally, could not be removed. Great to stop fare dodgers on such a huge network; pretty crap if you make a mistake.

 

[tedted]

Hail All!
Just a quick note to say that I managed to resolve the situation today without much hassle. I explained the situation to an RPO at Farnborough Station and he kindly wrote a simple note on the back of the ticket (Stating that it was punched in error and thus still valid) and signed it. I also noticed at the same time that the clip on the Bangor > Chester ticket that I was also using is 100% legible, so provided I keep the four tickets together then all should be well.

How the guard got hold of my return portion? I was juggling four ticket portions that had been in my Y-P Railcard holder, and had placed them on the table in front of me to sort out which ones to present to her (My normal method if I'm having to "bolt tickets together" to make a direct journey).
She simply reached for all four off of the table and probabally (Albeit incorrectly) stamped the return portion to Farnborough out of instinct as she'd (Correctly) stamped the return portion to Chester.

W14 Fishbourne: I don't know too much about ticket machines, but the ones in use at Bangor ticket office look like the model that do a thermal print onto fan-fold - So possibly a Tribute system there. (And I havn't seen ANY stations still using the old Thorn dot-matrix machines for at least a year.)

All I need to do now is write a letter to Virgin Water Closet stating:

1. My dissatisfaction about how the guard dealt with her mistake,
2. My suggestion that a different ink is used in ticket clips if passengers might have to rely on them in this manner,
3. My request for a refund of the £6.00 or so that I spent in making phone calls to Virgin yesterday, trying to sort the whole situation out!

Farewell, and many thanks again!
>> Death <<

You only need to show the outward portion on the outward journey (ditto for return portion on return journey). To avoid all this hassle again, it would be a good idea to only get the tickets you actually need out of your wallet. Get your ticket ready when you get on the train rather than when the idiot inspector comes. Therefore, you can be sure that the toilet inspector doesn't punch the wrong ticket.

 

[yorkie]

1. My request for a refund of the £6.00 or so that I spent in making phone calls to Virgin yesterday, trying to sort the whole situation out!

Farewell, and many thanks again!
>> Death <<

Sorry this is too late, but...

Origin: CHESTER
Destination: CREWE
Discount: YOUNG PERSONS RCD

SDS - STD DAY SINGLE ATW
00000 - ANY PERMITTED
1 Adult @£ 5.20 = £ 5.20
__________
£ 5.20

Would have been cheaper Not to mention the value of your time spent sorting it out..!

You'll probably be changing at Crewe anyway, once at Crewe you could have presented the stamped ticket and simply say "I broke my journey at Crewe". A lot less hassle.

However, I do agree that what happened was not acceptable and glad you got it sorted in the end. You shouldn't have to purchase anything else - it's just in this case it may have ended up easier/cheaper, in hindsight.

 

[westcoaster]

Get your ticket ready when you get on the train rather than when the idiot inspector comes. Therefore, you can be sure that the toilet inspector doesn't punch the wrong ticket.

we are not all idiot/toilet inspectors you know?
as said when the mistake was pointed out to her she circled the stamp, thats all she had to do (she could have put i.i.e. on it or a note) but as was said the train was busy, and she was probley rushed off her feet, give us a break we are all human and all make mistakes, if the correct ticket had been handed to her in the first place then the problem would not have arouse.

 

[W14Fishbourne]

we are not all idiot/toilet inspectors you know?
as said when the mistake was pointed out to her she circled the stamp, thats all she had to do (she could have put i.i.e. on it or a note) but as was said the train was busy, and she was probley rushed off her feet, give us a break we are all human and all make mistakes, if the correct ticket had been handed to her in the first place then the problem would not have arouse.

Right! I often see passengers handing over a whole wodge of tickets - tickets for both directions, seat reservation coupons, credit card receipts, receipts, etc, etc, often for two or more people - to the train manager or conductor simply because they're too idle to sort them out. I'm sure I'd love being handed that lot if I was trying to check a busy train.

 

[martyn29]

As already mentioned in part by various other people, if you show the incorrectly stamped ticket - indicating the circled stamp - and explain the situation to the train manager before boarding the train you should be fine (from my experience, if you have a ticket that has questionable validity for your journey and you enquire with the TM before boarding you're generally ok).

The stamp code you've got that is legible on the return portion shows the date and headcode of the train, it's pretty damn unlikely that you used the return portion of a Chester - Farnborough ticket on a Holyhead - Euston train on the day of purchase! so should be simple enough to explain to the TM.

I have got all this to come!!!!!!!!!hock:

 

[Mojo]

Is there a point in stamping tickets on local services anyway? As standard and cheap day tickets are valid for breaks of journey, it's easy to claim it was stamped between two other stations.

On the Severn Beach line, FGW staff don't stamp tickets normally to ensure they can get round the train and sell as many tickets as they can, as it's obviously better use of time & resources.

 

[rail-britain]

It's important to stamp the OUT ticket, as that is normally either valid for one or three days (depending on type)
It is helpful to stamp the RTN ticket, as it is possible to abuse this ticket type and reuse between the same points over and over again

I had a ticket which had my stamp on it from two weeks prior AND on the same route, between the same points
BTP boarded at Berwick and the passenger was detrained at Dunbar

 

[dave4jackie]

i blame you why did you give them your return ticket you should have only showed them the tkt that was valid for that journey you was making,its not the checkers fault you gave her the wrong tkt