Should the HSTs be Replaced?

[al.currie93]

Hi people!

Had a search of the forums and couldn't find a discussion about this (apologies if there is!).

With all available HSTs currently in service but soon to be withdrawn, possibly mostly scrapped, and replaced by IEPs, it makes me wonder, with the exception of newly/soon-to-be electrified routes, should they be being replaced?

They are nearly 40 years old, so this suggests that they are due for replacement. But on the other hand, a study done says that they are good to go, with certain Mk3 modifications, until at least 2035. Furthermore, FGW did (for a while) replace their shiny new 180s with more old, trusty HSTs.

The withdrawal of the HSTs will allow any Voyagers displaced by electrification schemes to be utilised, but, radical as it is, but if the study suggests that they are good until 2035, when the Voyagers will be approaching 40, should it actually be the Voyagers getting replaced by the HSTs displaced by electrification schemes? After all, I'd personally hate to think what Voyagers will be like in 2035!

So, is this a case of a train which has had a good run but is life-expired and due for replacement rightfully being replaced, as some sources say? Or are the higher powers actually needlessly replacing trains which, as other sources suggest, have plenty of life left in them?

I'm currently undecided, but what do people think?

 

[ainsworth74]

But on the other hand, a study done says that they are good to go, with certain Mk3 modifications, until at least 2035.

The report did say that but as far as I recall it neglected to mention two things. 1) How much it would cost to overhaul them to last out that far and 2) What the escalating maintenance costs would be of keeping 40+ year old trains in front line service.

 

[The Ham]

It's been covered a few times:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74368

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=85904

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=82929

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86902

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say, I‘m reminded of Saint Augustine‘s request to to the Lord to "give me chastity-but not now ".

We all know that the HST‘s will have to be replaced at some time In the future. Just not yet, and I would Echo that sentiment.

Another factor is that even though they are 35 years old, they are not so different in the eyes of modern media to be described as "clapped out". Since they can still masquerade as modern trains amongst the public, I say keep them!

 

[tbtc]

if the study suggests that they are good until 2035, when the Voyagers will be approaching 40, should it actually be the Voyagers getting replaced by the HSTs displaced by electrification schemes? After all, I'd personally hate to think what Voyagers will be like in 2035!

Voyagers seem mechanically sound after over a decade - ride quality still seems decent.

The "2035" argument is an irrelevance that a lot of enthusiasts have jumped upon, because it tells them what they want to believe. The truth is that if you throw enough money at anything it'll keep going till 2035 - just like if you throw enough money at Voyagers they'll keep going till well after we are all dead.

But most people just heard the "HSTs are good for another few decades" part of the argument.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Another factor is that even though they are 35 years old, they are not so different in the eyes of modern media to be described as "clapped out".....

Trouble with the media is they live in the car world where any vehicle older than ten years is embaraasingly old unless its a classic. They don't understand that trains are built to last.

IEP - sadly that will hang around for more than ten years. We can only hope that the Bi-Mode version needs an early overhaul and has the engines removed !.

 

[AndyLandy]

The reasons for withdrawal have basically been covered, it's all about economics. They could be kept running indefinitely (We have preserved steam trains from the 19th century that run) but there comes a point where a newer train is just plainly better value for money.

Personally, I suspect that some HSTs may find themselves in service beyond 2020, but how many, where, and for how long is anyone's guess. I'm not sure what the long-term plans for Paddington-Plymouth(-Penzance) services over the B&H are. Last I heard, they'd be keeping HSTs for the foreseeable future.

 

[yorksrob]

Trouble with the media is they live in the car world where any vehicle older than ten years is embaraasingly old unless its a classic. They don't understand that trains are built to last.

IEP - sadly that will hang around for more than ten years. We can only hope that the Bi-Mode version needs an early overhaul and has the engines removed !.

This is true. But then again, If you stood an average journalist on a platform between a 125 and a pendolino, I doubt he‘s be able to tell that one was thirty years older than the other.

 

[Yew]

Yes, we cant keep them going forever. However its just a shame that DDA and the lack of suitable secondary routes will probably kill them prematurely. But on the flip side, there should be many in good condition for heritage railways or OAO's

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes I would say OAO would like them. Good for summer extras as well because they should be cheap to rent with low residual value.

The only big future would be on electrified routes with the power cars replaced.

Possibly some jumbo trains to provide relief in the peaks like the MK1 cobbler sets did and of course the pretendalino does. Ridership growth ought to keep them alive.

Years ago there was always older stock lying around ready to fill the gaps. Hopefully the main reason for that not happening currently is because all that potential MK2 (& MK1) slam door stock was wiped out artificificially quickly. I hope that the MK3 coaches are more eligible for continued use despite higher safety requirements as we dont seem to be heading for the same type of "slam door stock replacement cliff" do we ?.

 

[route:oxford]

This is true. But then again, If you stood an average journalist on a platform between a 125 and a Pendolino, I doubt he‘s be able to tell that one was thirty years older than the other.

The slam doors do tend to give the heritage nature of the sets away.

If they were refurbished in the same way as the Chiltern Mk3s, I could understand the difficulty in estimating the age difference.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

This is true. But then again, If you stood an average journalist on a platform between a 125 and a pendolino, I doubt he‘s be able to tell that one was thirty years older than the other.

Of course a journo can tell which is the newest one - the one with the freshest coat of paint!

The age should not come into any decision. Simply the cost of the next projected overhaul to bring them up to date
If I had to wait another hour to be able to travel on an HST instead of a Voyager I would.
Electrification is the way forward.

 

[D365]

The slam doors do tend to give the heritage nature of the sets away.

If they were refurbished in the same way as the Chiltern Mk3s, I could understand the difficulty in estimating the age difference.

Doesn't one remember "Age Of The Train" back in the days of yore - although, one big name has probably made us all want to forget it.

When I saw the thread title, I was thinking, has this guy even noted IEP? But all has been unravelled... I'm sure ROSCOs may be willing to refurbish a few sets and lease them to TOCs, OAOs as well as for short-term cover, summer specials or even railtours. Obviously this will include GW WoE for now. It's major intercity use where they will be withdrawn for sure.

 

[yorksrob]

The slam doors do tend to give the heritage nature of the sets away.

If they were refurbished in the same way as the Chiltern Mk3s, I could understand the difficulty in estimating the age difference.

Er, less of the H word thank you very much
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course a journo can tell which is the newest one - the one with the freshest coat of paint!

Yes, that sounds more like it

I go for comfort, regardless of age, everytime.

 

[Trog]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

 

[Temple Meads]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

This

 

[nathanclass323]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

That needs to go to DaFT. I'm sure they'll keep them all just for you for this reason

 

[causton]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

German or American? English people are bad enough Okay fair enough it's not the normal stock for the route but I was waiting to get on the HST to Skegness and people were just standing at the door on the inside of the train! I was wondering what they were waiting for...!

 

[nathanclass323]

German or American? English people are bad enough Okay fair enough it's not the normal stock for the route but I was waiting to get on the HST to Skegness and people were just standing at the door on the inside of the train! I was wondering what they were waiting for...!

Now that's even better!

 

[D365]

German or American? English people are bad enough Okay fair enough it's not the normal stock for the route but I was waiting to get on the HST to Skegness and people were just standing at the door on the inside of the train! I was wondering what they were waiting for...!

Hmm, make a meme out of it!

"Stands in HST doorway at station, waits for door to open"

 

[RichmondCommu]

This is true. But then again, If you stood an average journalist on a platform between a 125 and a pendolino, I doubt he‘s be able to tell that one was thirty years older than the other.

Until he wonders why he has to open the door himself! Of course I'm much aware of what Chiltern have done but I can't see the other operators doing something similar.

 

[yorksrob]

Until he wonders why he has to open the door himself! Of course I'm much aware of what Chiltern have done but I can't see the other operators doing something similar.

As long as he's on the platform comparing rather than trying to get out, he'll be fine !

 

[RichmondCommu]

I say keep the HST's they are worth it just for the joy of watching German and American tourists trying to find the door handle when they want to get off.

I'm sorry but spiteful and smug attitudes towards others is very disappointing. Especially when they are visitors to our country.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As long as he's on the platform comparing rather than trying to get out, he'll be fine !

But that's the problem As my oldest daughter discovered to her embarrasment when attending an open day at Bristol University! My daughters previous experience of Intercity travel (travelling by herself) had been Meridians and Pendolinos! Oh the shame of a queue forming behind her

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sorry but spiteful and smug attitudes towards others is very disappointing. Especially when they are visitors to our country.

Personally I find a squeeze past and a polite explanation that you "open from outside" works well for our own countrymen and those from abroad.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Personally I find a squeeze past and a polite explanation that you "open from outside" works well for our own countrymen and those from abroad.

I completely agree but to stand there and smirk at others misfortune is plain wrong.

 

[yorksrob]

I completely agree but to stand there and smirk at others misfortune is plain wrong.

That's true, to be fair, I tend to see it as an opportunity to teach people how to use a proper train door. Once you're fully compliant with the Mk3, the world's your oyster !

 

[RichmondCommu]

That's true, to be fair, I tend to see it as an opportunity to teach people how to use a proper train door. Once you're fully compliant with the Mk3, the world's your oyster !

Well lets face it the HST is virtually a go anywhere train! Hopefully in the future the likes of Laira and Bounds Green will provide a home to a HST for charter work. It's hard to see how a preserved railway could maintain a full length HST to be honest.

 

[yorksrob]

Well lets face it the HST is virtually a go anywhere train! Hopefully in the future the likes of Laira and Bounds Green will provide a home to a HST for charter work. It's hard to see how a preserved railway could maintain a full length HST to be honest.

Agreed. On that unhappy day when the 125's leave mainline service, it will really need mainline preservation !

 

[Surreyman]

Agreed. On that unhappy day when the 125's leave mainline service, it will really need mainline preservation !

Well against the majority I am sure but I am for scrapping them ASAP.
Sure I acknowledge their design, speed, comfort etc etc but their time is nearly up.
They have slam doors, toilets that dump on the track and they are just old.
Keep a few in preservation by all means.
I hope the Dft see sense and authorize more SENs for Devon & Cornwall (They just signed off another batch to replace class 91/Mk 4s, so it's looking hopeful).

 

[route:oxford]

Well lets face it the HST is virtually a go anywhere train! Hopefully in the future the likes of Laira and Bounds Green will provide a home to a HST for charter work. It's hard to see how a preserved railway could maintain a full length HST to be honest.

Are there many Heritage stations that could accommodate a 2+9 HST on their platforms? Or is 2+7 the "official" length of an HST.

As to maintaining one, surely as long as they had the capability of maintaining a 2+1 set, then it's simply adding more onto the +1...