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Manchester Metrolink master thread

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Phil6219

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I had a good chuckle whilst reading this earlier

Open Letter to Metrolink (Manchester)

In my experience almost all of the points are accurate, I am far from a fan of the Metrolink especially as the Bury line seems to be closed most weekends, the trams appear to only run in single sets despite being packed out from Bury, the god awful ride quality, frequency of service - how many trams to Bury again? Let's not forget how much traffic congestion they cause due to resetting traffic lights oh and their total inability to organise a proper replacement bus service...

With regard to the photo's above of the new end of the line, it does look nice but perhaps a fence would have been a good idea at the runaround point?

Phil 8-)
 
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Manchester77

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I had a good chuckle whilst reading this earlier

Open Letter to Metrolink (Manchester)

In my experience almost all of the points are accurate, I am far from a fan of the Metrolink especially as the Bury line seems to be closed most weekends, the trams appear to only run in single sets despite being packed out from Bury, the god awful ride quality, frequency of service - how many trams to Bury again? Let's not forget how much traffic congestion they cause due to resetting traffic lights oh and their total inability to organise a proper replacement bus service...

With regard to the photo's above of the new end of the line, it does look nice but perhaps a fence would have been a good idea at the runaround point?

Phil 8-)

The bury line has had to be closed a lot recently because of the works at Victoria (the new roof!)

6 minute service from Bury formed of:
12 minute service - Bury - Droylsden (single M5000s)
12 minute service - Bury - Alrtincham (mixture of T68s and M5000s)
Normally doubles operate the Bury - Altrincham service. 8 out of the 10 services are doubles thanks to new power upgrades at Dane Road and Bowker Vale.

What do you mean about traffic lights? The only 'traffic light' bit on the Bury line is the hag side level crossing which is network rail controlled. Barriers are always down unless a car needs to cross where you simply ring network rail.

Lots of crossovers aren't fenced in - at Droylsden it's done in the middle of the road and there hasn't been anything wrong there. Trams sometimes need to terminate in Aytoun street and again nothing has gone wrong there iirc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've come up with a form of reply to the persons blog entry:

1. No one wants to go to Droylsden.

Totally invalid. Look at the Eccles line when it first opened it was quite with relatively low patronage, now it should probably have a 6 minute service all the way to Eccles!

2. Replace your current 'signals' with actual signals

The new signals allow more trams to run. There's actually none the image shown is block signalling (I think) whereas the new signalling system operates similar to a road - no signals except at junctions. It allows trams to flow better and recover from disruption.

3. Social Media is a two-way communication tool

Totally agree however if you need a service update I might recommend you follow @manc_metrolink which gives service updates which is always helpful.

4. "Do you know how Geoff got suspended?" "Yeah, he went through a red at Langworthy." "****ing hell."

Never actually seen this happen. During driver changes I've only heard them say suff like 'oh yeah the doors a bit sticky on this one just near with!'

5. 'My Get Me There'

Not metrolinks responsibility it's TfGMs however I agree it should have a better name.

6. Consider relating the numbers displayed on the electronic board to what's actually happening.

What it does, the PIDs use TMS to see where the trams are and display the timings, in fact the only thing I'd change is they numbered them when the bottom line alternates so:
1. Bury 6 min

7. Don't cover main events.

Ridiculous idea, is it actually serious?! Most people will take the metrolink to the events as it takes you very close. Say if you're going to the ashes and you're coming in from Piccadilly, 3 out of 6 of the Piccadilly - Altrincham trams were doubles to add extra capacity. If you take away the entire network not only will you have people unable to get to work (when there's an event on not everyone who uses the met is going to the event!) but you'll put unneeded pressure on buses and does manchester have an extra 20,00 taxis? And some of the delays were outside of metrolinks hands:
Mosley Street RTC
Person threatening to throw jump off arndale

8. Stop using random distribution to send out your trams.

No I think that when a tram comes to a junction it's a first come first serve process iirc. So at Cornbrook junction if an Eccles tram is running 2 minutes late and an East Didsbury tram is waiting to enter Cornbrook it'll be sent first to keep everything moving.
 

Phil6219

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My apologies, I forgot to mention that my experiences are predominantly of a Saturday and to a lesser extent a Sunday. Hence a lower frequency of service but at the same time the trams are shockingly overcrowded from the start. By that I mean just miss a tram by seconds at Bury then by the time the next one arrives (a single unit as always) the platform is nearly full and a battle ensues to get on let alone get a seat.

While the final part of the butchering of Manchester Victoria has caused some disruption there was also the track renewal which had also taken place which is firmly in their control, not really sure what they expected to achieve with that given the ride quality is still as bad as ever - no wonder they don't allow drinks on board given they would be all over the floors, walls, ceilings and passengers :)

My traffic light remark is mainly aimed at the section along the Eccles line, specifically between Langworthy and Ladywell where the lights go red for the side roads as a tram approaches (even if they were just about to switch to green from a normal cycle of red) then stay red - it can be rather unfortunate too if a tram happens to be going the other way shortly after and the whole process happens again.

With regard to the crossover I was being a bit of a pillock given I've just looked again at the photo and the crossover is on the Manchester side of the station and not beyond it so to speak.

With regard to the Droylesden remark, I agree that there will indeed be a surge in traffic the issue is perhaps that they should sort their existing issues out before embarking on expansion. I agree about the Eccles line and have used it fairly regularly until recently, the main problem with that line is the need for so many services to run either via Media City or terminate there. While it was probably some service agreement wrote up it makes the service so slow that on 4 occasions I have raced a friend who has had a 10 minute head start and my 33 bus has beaten him & the tram to Eccles - so far the tram has yet to win.

What would be a novel idea is if they adjusted the route somewhat (not so much expansion but an enhancement) which would see the tram line run parralel to Regent Road from Manchester and therefore have a much faster route into Eccles, then again that is what is so good about the train service but that only runs an hourly service.

The new signals allow more trams to run. There's actually none the image shown is block signalling (I think) whereas the new signalling system operates similar to a road - no signals except at junctions. It allows trams to flow better and recover from disruption.

I've been told by someone who is an S&T guy or similar title at Metrolink and a friend who is big on signalling about this new type of signalling and from what I understand (may just be my lack of comprehension of a new signalling idea) is that while it would allow more trams to run as they would use line of sight it would also be a problem in reduced viability. I'm open to a clearer explanation to that one as I surely can't be right.

I must admit I don't pay much attention to the information signs any more as one more than one occasion it just seemed to be random services coming up, did seem ok at the weekend though. It's one of those nice things to have but at the same time it is not particularly important if there is a high enough frequency of service.

I've got to agree with you on the main events remark, no idea what the poster is on about with that one. Main events are a big issue, perhaps the thing Metrolink need to do is put more effort into keeping the trams moving and more importantly keeping the people flowing. I hate having to go to Bury when there is something on at Heaton Park as I know it will be a nightmare journey.

I think that when a tram comes to a junction it's a first come first serve process iirc. So at Cornbrook junction if an Eccles tram is running 2 minutes late and an East Didsbury tram is waiting to enter Cornbrook it'll be sent first to keep everything moving.

Which is logical, I think the poster is trying to suggest that the actual number of services are at random. I've stood at Deansgate for nearly 30 minutes on a weekday waiting for an Eccles Tram and got a parade of Altrincham trams, to the point where there were two together (as in one in the platform and one waiting to come in). Had the same problem trying to get to Bury from Victoria, just seems to be an endless flow of Rochdale bound ones...

So in hindsight I may not have agreed with every point from the poster of the open letter however I still think some points are still quite fair. One thing to consider is that the Metrolink has been running for over 20 years now and issues are still cropping up on the original route, even the Eccles line has been open for over a decade and still has it's problems, these need addressing before expansion as things will only get worse.

Phil 8-)
 

Manchester77

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My apologies, I forgot to mention that my experiences are predominantly of a Saturday and to a lesser extent a Sunday. Hence a lower frequency of service but at the same time the trams are shockingly overcrowded from the start. By that I mean just miss a tram by seconds at Bury then by the time the next one arrives (a single unit as always) the platform is nearly full and a battle ensues to get on let alone get a seat.
I do think that on Sundays levels of passengers have got to a point that the Altrincham - Bury service should be introduced between say 0800 and 1900 at the very least to try and combat the day time crowds.

While the final part of the butchering of Manchester Victoria has caused some disruption there was also the track renewal which had also taken place which is firmly in their control, not really sure what they expected to achieve with that given the ride quality is still as bad as ever - no wonder they don't allow drinks on board given they would be all over the floors, walls, ceilings and passengers :)
Ah you're gonna love it next year then! One single line through Victoria while the station is remodelled. Services will run Bury - Abraham Moss, Droylsden - Eccles, Rochdale - East Didsbury.
And ride quality on the ex-BR lines is poor which is partly due to the hammering the T68s do to the track hence why when you go from Trafford Bar onto the SML the difference is so severe!


My traffic light remark is mainly aimed at the section along the Eccles line, specifically between Langworthy and Ladywell where the lights go red for the side roads as a tram approaches (even if they were just about to switch to green from a normal cycle of red) then stay red - it can be rather unfortunate too if a tram happens to be going the other way shortly after and the whole process happens again.
I guess the same could be made about level crossings where there's the wait for the first train and then if there's another coming they'll stay down for even longer instead of letting a couple of the cars through but I guess if they did we'd have people saying 'what's the point in letting two cars through and then shutting it again' ;)

With regard to the Droylesden remark, I agree that there will indeed be a surge in traffic the issue is perhaps that they should sort their existing issues out before embarking on expansion. I agree about the Eccles line and have used it fairly regularly until recently, the main problem with that line is the need for so many services to run either via Media City or terminate there. While it was probably some service agreement wrote up it makes the service so slow that on 4 occasions I have raced a friend who has had a 10 minute head start and my 33 bus has beaten him & the tram to Eccles - so far the tram has yet to win.
Its supposed to be during the day a separate service with a dedicated media service and then combined at all other times + Sunday. However you quite often find trams being chopping and changed during delays resulting in irregularities.

What would be a novel idea is if they adjusted the route somewhat (not so much expansion but an enhancement) which would see the tram line run parralel to Regent Road from Manchester and therefore have a much faster route into Eccles, then again that is what is so good about the train service but that only runs an hourly service.
The thing about lines is they're not just for going ned - end its for the locals on route, just because there's a faster way to go end to end doesn't mean that the locals on the route will benefit.

I've been told by someone who is an S&T guy or similar title at Metrolink and a friend who is big on signalling about this new type of signalling and from what I understand (may just be my lack of comprehension of a new signalling idea) is that while it would allow more trams to run as they would use line of sight it would also be a problem in reduced viability. I'm open to a clearer explanation to that one as I surely can't be right.
In reduced visibility such as mist or fog you'd drive you car slower and be more aware of other vehicles, the same goes for trams they'll be driven differently so if there is bad fog they can stop in time :)

I must admit I don't pay much attention to the information signs any more as one more than one occasion it just seemed to be random services coming up, did seem ok at the weekend though. It's one of those nice things to have but at the same time it is not particularly important if there is a high enough frequency of service.
The PIDs are good but when there's disruption and changes to the TMS timetable are made they go to pot. Say if you're terminating an East Didsbury tram at Piccadilly the change won't be made to the TMS timetable so it will appear as Rochdale on the PID. Each route has a TMS code which is in putted to give correct destinations and announcements and this corresponds to the timetable. However during weekend engineering works when say Droylsden to Eccles is run there's no change made in the TMS timetable for that yet so PIDs get a bit messy.

I've got to agree with you on the main events remark, no idea what the poster is on about with that one. Main events are a big issue, perhaps the thing Metrolink need to do is put more effort into keeping the trams moving and more importantly keeping the people flowing. I hate having to go to Bury when there is something on at Heaton Park as I know it will be a nightmare journey.
They do their best by running extra doubles but not every event stop is blessed with a turnback like Etihad is with Velopark!

Which is logical, I think the poster is trying to suggest that the actual number of services are at random. I've stood at Deansgate for nearly 30 minutes on a weekday waiting for an Eccles Tram and got a parade of Altrincham trams, to the point where there were two together (as in one in the platform and one waiting to come in). Had the same problem trying to get to Bury from Victoria, just seems to be an endless flow of Rochdale bound ones...
It does create bunching but its better than having passengers stuck onboard waiting for a delayed Eccles tram to go across.

So in hindsight I may not have agreed with every point from the poster of the open letter however I still think some points are still quite fair. One thing to consider is that the Metrolink has been running for over 20 years now and issues are still cropping up on the original route, even the Eccles line has been open for over a decade and still has it's problems, these need addressing before expansion as things will only get worse.
Up until recently though metrolink has been under invested and their trams over used. There are a few hicks in the system however once everything's open it'll be so much better. RTC on Mosley street, no problem we can divert cross city trams over 2CC! TMS will help too it'll allow recovery on the busiest sections to happen quicker and of corse all the additional capacity. I'd much rather stand on a banana than a T68!!
Phil 8-)

My replies will be in red in the quote :)
 

radamfi

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I thought the track to Bury and Altrincham was replaced a couple of years ago, with the lines closed for an extended period of time in the summer. So why is the ride from Bury to Radcliffe in particular so bad, with so much swaying from side to side, even on the new trams?
 

transmanche

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I thought the track to Bury and Altrincham was replaced a couple of years ago, with the lines closed for an extended period of time in the summer. So why is the ride from Bury to Radcliffe in particular so bad, with so much swaying from side to side, even on the new trams?
Perhaps the trams need yaw dampers? (Or if they have them already - better ones!)
 

radamfi

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Was the ride from Bury to Radcliffe smooth immediately after track replacement and the T68s have ruined it in such a short time? Why is the ride south of Radcliffe better?
 

edwin_m

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I think the upgrades a few years back only replaced the worst of the track not all of it. And I also think that although the T68s may damage the tracks more, the ride of the M5000s may be more sensitive to poor track.

Tram bogies need to swivel easily to go round tight curves and yaw dampers may prevent this. There was some talk of changing the wheel profile on the M5000s to reduce lateral oscillation.
 

radamfi

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Does Metrolink even get new rails for new lines, or are they cascaded from part worn high speed National Rail lines?
 

rebmcr

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Was the ride from Bury to Radcliffe smooth immediately after track replacement and the T68s have ruined it in such a short time? Why is the ride south of Radcliffe better?

Does Metrolink even get new rails for new lines, or are they cascaded from part worn high speed National Rail lines?

IIRC Bury wasn't fully replaced. Altrincham definitely was, and with what appeared to be shiny new ballast, rails, and sleepers. The T68 ride quality on the fast bit south of Sale improved tremendously, although I've not been there for a while, certainly not on an M5000.
 

northwichcat

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Altrincham definitely was, and with what appeared to be shiny new ballast, rails, and sleepers.

The bit between Navigation Road and Altrincham is still on old BR wooden sleepers and there seem to be random odd sections on the line between Navigation Rd and Cornbrook where short sections containing wooden sleepers appear.
 

radamfi

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I always understood that secondary railway lines on the National Rail network get their rails passed down from the high speed lines. These 'secondhand' rails would be still be smooth enough and run fine for the local lines. So slightly worn lines would be fine for Metrolink where the maximum speed is 50 mph.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I thought I would mention an episode at East Didsbury metrolink stop this morning as a friend drove me there so I could take my first journey from there. A double unit arrived but we were told there would be a slight delay whilst both units were split, but there seemed to be a difficulty in doing this.

We were told that neither unit was going anywhere and to wait for the next service tram to arrive. The departure time of the third tram (a single unit) was also delayed by its driver being drawn into the problem. Eventually, after what seemed quite a long wait, the single unit set off and at each stop from there, large crowds were waiting to board, many of these being families with children who have just started their school summer holidays.

The tram was crammed to a level that I have never seen before. The crowds on these intermediate stops up to Cornbrook would have been accentuated by this single unit having to take the passengers who normally would have been spread over two services.

Any ideas why a double unit was sent on a service to East Didsbury in the mid-morning service period, with the view to splitting it there ?
 
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Manchester77

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There are two doubles which operate during the peak on East Didsbury - Rochdale services. They then split after the peak with the first until forming the next service to Rochdale the next unit then hangs back to form the next service. The other double once terminating at East Didsbury will run out of service to the Old Trafford Depot.
 

familyguy99

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It been report on SCC thread that ticket machines are now in place at Audenshaw, Ashton Moss and Ashton West stops for Droylsden to Ashton line, when they put in ticket machines in the always open line around 4 to 6 weeks later so Ashton line look likely to be opening in September then.
 

radamfi

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The T68s breaking down have long been considered to be the main reason for delays. However, the M5000s seem to have far from an unblemished record. It would appear that long shutdowns due to failed trams will be an enduring feature of Metrolink long after the total withdrawal of the T68s.
 

Manchester77

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More T68s have been withdrawn and stripped for spares. M5000s still are still more reliable than T68s. Just like with any fleet replacement the new fleet won't be completely reliable, none is!! The number of delays has reduced dramatically though
 

radamfi

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Obviously no train is completely reliable, but there does seem to be still a very high number of reports of tram failures on the forums. I can understand there will be teething problems but M5000s have been around for a while now. Tram failures on the south London tram system seem to be a comparative rarity. I only visit Manchester once or twice a month but each time I visit there always seems to either a suspension due to a failed tram or delays due to an earlier failed tram. Maybe I'm just unlucky.
 

Manchester77

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Pretty much all the withdrawn T68s on death row have been graffitied on now. I guess it's to show turquoise trams bad yellow good?

Most tram failures are T68 caused as they still operate a lot of services - the majority of Eccles - Piccadilly And some Altrincham - Bury services. If a tram fails then as these routes overlap on other services there will obviously be delays and they aren't as easy to fix on scene compared with the bananas
 

WatcherZero

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Obviously no train is completely reliable, but there does seem to be still a very high number of reports of tram failures on the forums. I can understand there will be teething problems but M5000s have been around for a while now. Tram failures on the south London tram system seem to be a comparative rarity. I only visit Manchester once or twice a month but each time I visit there always seems to either a suspension due to a failed tram or delays due to an earlier failed tram. Maybe I'm just unlucky.

The new ones are 4x as reliable as the old ones but even still simple mathematical odds means that while each individually will go months between breakdowns, there will be a breakdown somewhere every couple of days because of the numbers in operation.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Is there any chance (for some) of the T-68s being sold for further use elsewhere? Or are they looking doomed?

There's nowhere else in the UK that needs high-floor trams, but if my memory serves me rightly some of the Cologne S-Bahm/U-Bahn lines have high floors.
 

Manchester77

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And such unreliable stock which would have been sat in a siding for a good three years and probably will be more.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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T68 is sometimes used to refer to both types as they're both very simular :)

You may very well think that, but being the old fogey that I am, I still differentiate between the T68 class and the T68A class.....just as much as I would differentiate between an original class of Lancashire and Yorkshire locomotive and a successor class with amended parts.
 
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