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Llanigraham

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Strewth!!
I get the impression that some people think that anything done in South Wales is a personal slur against them.

I'm sure Network Rail had a press release stating that the reason for the Lougher Viaduct and Gowerton redoubling was reason of removing a single track pinch point, and nothing more than that. The fact that it gave Gowerton a better service was subsiduary. it has certainly made life easier for the signalling!

Now until there is an answer to the FoI request about the Wrexham redoubling everything is speculation, and it is pointless getting uppity or anti-South, as some seem to be doing.

Personally I think the money would much better be spent giving the Cambrian the promised hourly service.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Strewth!!
I get the impression that some people think that anything done in South Wales is a personal slur against them.

I'm sure Network Rail had a press release stating that the reason for the Lougher Viaduct and Gowerton redoubling was reason of removing a single track pinch point, and nothing more than that. The fact that it gave Gowerton a better service was subsiduary. it has certainly made life easier for the signalling!
Personally I think the money would much better be spent giving the Cambrian the promised hourly service.

The underlying reason for the Gowerton upgrade was the need to replace the Loughor viaduct, and NR (with input from WG) decided to enhance the scheme to a full redoubling.
Eminently sensible. Now let's have some eminent sense up here. :)

The Cambrian hourly service is a revenue/subsidy problem, whereas Saltney is a capital problem.
You can't just swap them around.
 

Llanigraham

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The Cambrian hourly service is a revenue/subsidy problem, whereas Saltney is a capital problem.
You can't just swap them around.

Agreed, but I am only following one member's attitude on here implying that the Wrexham money has been used for another, non-capital based project. Until an official answer to that is received any views are worthless.
 

Squaddie

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The justification for redoubling the the line Wrexham to Saltney was to improve the service between Shrewsbury/Chester and North Wales, the single track is ATW & NRs biggest pinch point in North Wales,at present it can only cope with two passenger trains and a freight an hour.A train failing on the single track has a catastrophic effect has was proven last year.
Running at saturation point only makes matters worse when a train is running a few minutes late. The extra work on the line between Wrexham & Shrewsbury will only add a couple of minutes, not enough to allow one extra service on the line.
I don't disagree with anything you've written, but my point was that the redoubling of the line through Gowerton was not, as you claimed, merely to provide an additional 95 services per week for that small village.

However, even though I think redoubling between Wrexham and Saltney is highly desirable for operational reasons, I doubt there is sufficient demand to justify a more frequent train service: a reliable hourly service (with better connections at Shrewsbury to all destinations) is probably all that is required in view of Wrexham's size and geographical location.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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However, even though I think redoubling between Wrexham and Saltney is highly desirable for operational reasons, I doubt there is sufficient demand to justify a more frequent train service: a reliable hourly service (with better connections at Shrewsbury to all destinations) is probably all that is required in view of Wrexham's size and geographical location.

The area needs 2tph Wrexham-Chester-Manchester, which would be well-supported, but that's not of much interest in Cardiff.
Extending the mooted Northern Hub Calder Valley-Manchester-Chester service to Wrexham would be a very useful development.
Such a plan would not be viable without the redoubling.
 

Squaddie

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The area needs 2tph Wrexham-Chester-Manchester, which would be well-supported...
You may want a 2tph service from Wrexham to Manchester, but I don't think there is a need for such a service. There is nothing wrong with an hourly service on all but the busiest lines, as long as it is reliable and connections are convenient.
 

Llanigraham

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The area needs 2tph Wrexham-Chester-Manchester, which would be well-supported, but that's not of much interest in Cardiff.
Extending the mooted Northern Hub Calder Valley-Manchester-Chester service to Wrexham would be a very useful development.
Such a plan would not be viable without the redoubling.

You keep repeating the same mantra, but you still haven't produced any evidence of need.
At least NR provided evidence of why the Gowerton redoubling was done, which was for operational needs.
 

Rhydgaled

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You seem to be assuming that when I wrote "service improvements" I meant an increase in frequency and/or journey times, but that's not the case. I think reliability improvements are just as important as, if not more important than, other types of service improvement.
Appologies, I agree that reliability improvements are very important but I took "service improvements" to mean enhanced frequency.

I don't think there's much that can be done about the distance between Carmarthen and Cardiff. :)
Not alot, though I think the Swansea District Line (SDL) is a slightly shorter route. The journey time is another matter, just using the SDL would knock about 15mins off and some linespeed improvements there would take knock it down some more.

The area needs 2tph Wrexham-Chester-Manchester, which would be well-supported, but that's not of much interest in Cardiff.
You may want a 2tph service from Wrexham to Manchester, but I don't think there is a need for such a service. There is nothing wrong with an hourly service on all but the busiest lines, as long as it is reliable and connections are convenient.
Arriva bus runs a high frequency 'Saphire' double-decker between Wrexham and Chester, I think an increase in frequency between Shrewsbury and Chester (via Wrexham) is a reasonable desire. Running through to Manchester though I think is probably out, there's probably only the one Chester-Manchester path available for the Wales TOC to use. Unless you can get through to Liverpool (and the Bidston line is probably a better bet for that) having all trains (except Gerald if it survives) from Wrexham terminate at Chester seems the most sensible option.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You may want a 2tph service from Wrexham to Manchester, but I don't think there is a need for such a service. There is nothing wrong with an hourly service on all but the busiest lines, as long as it is reliable and connections are convenient.

You keep repeating the same mantra, but you still haven't produced any evidence of need.
At least NR provided evidence of why the Gowerton redoubling was done, which was for operational needs.

Sorry, my "mantra" is only repeating what the regional transport consortium Taith says it wants.
Chester-Wrexham can only manage 1tph and the track is in poor condition (60mph max).
To improve any of that it needs at least partial redoubling.

Connections from Wrexham towards Manchester at Chester (both 1tph) are very poor - but it just happens to be the route where all the jobs are.
 

Llanigraham

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And again you've used the same word: WANTS!

There is still no evidence of need being provided, either passenger statistics or operational need. Get those and your case becomes stronger.
 

merlodlliw

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I don't disagree with anything you've written, but my point was that the redoubling of the line through Gowerton was not, as you claimed, merely to provide an additional 95 services per week for that small village.

However, even though I think redoubling between Wrexham and Saltney is highly desirable for operational reasons, I doubt there is sufficient demand to justify a more frequent train service: a reliable hourly service (with better connections at Shrewsbury to all destinations) is probably all that is required in view of Wrexham's size and geographical location.

The redoubling did provide the village of Gowerton with 95 extra services a week,its on the ATW website, Nat Rails operational requirements are exactly the same for redouble of the Wrexham line, to clear North Wales biggest pinch point. The demand is defiantly there for extra services to and from North Wales biggest town, The North Wales Task force report(WG Commissioned) backs this up. Currently Arriva Bus run a every 12 minute per hour service from Wrexham to Chester rail station which as been improved since June.
I consider redoubling the line is money better spent than WG buying Cardiff airport and providing what will be a full years subsidy of £1m to run buses to it from Cardiff, which of course will be of no benefit to anyone in the North, but thats my opinion.
Why do you mention Shrewsbury for better connections,when the majority use Chester with its four tocs for connections to the North West & North Wales
 

Squaddie

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The redoubling did provide the village of Gowerton with 95 extra services a week,its on the ATW website...
That is a consequential benefit of the redoubling work, but it was not the reason for the work.

Currently Arriva Bus run a every 12 minute per hour service from Wrexham to Chester rail station which as been improved since June.
That demonstrates demand for a frequent transport link between Wrexham and Chester, but not necessarily for a more frequent rail service along the entire line. And it could be argued that a 12-minute bus service actually removes the need for more frequent trains, particularly in view of the fact that both Wrexham and Chester railway stations are rather inconveniently-sited for the towns they serve.

Why do you mention Shrewsbury for better connections, when the majority use Chester with its four tocs for connections to the North West & North Wales
I mention Shrewsbury because, according to others on this forum, the current connections there are poor and possibly discourage use of the railway whereas the existing connections at Chester are already convenient.
 

jones_bangor

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Sorry, my "mantra" is only repeating what the regional transport consortium Taith says it wants.
Chester-Wrexham can only manage 1tph and the track is in poor condition (60mph max).
To improve any of that it needs at least partial redoubling.

Connections from Wrexham towards Manchester at Chester (both 1tph) are very poor - but it just happens to be the route where all the jobs are.

The Wrexham - Saltney "problem" would be better addressed through a small section of redoubling at Saltney to form a waiting space off the North Wales mainline, together with updated signalling and relaying the track to achieve a higher top speed.

The original plan was far too much "bells and whistles", even though there would still been a significant section of single line remaining between Rossett and Wrexham due to bridge and ground stability issues.
 
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swcovas

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Just caught some of an interview on Radio Wales with (I think) a Conservative AM who "seemed" to be saying that the problem with the Wrexham redoubling was NR seemingly dragging its feet and that the WG and the first minister were completely behind the scheme. Didn't manage to hear the interview completely.....I'll be interested to hear it again when I get the chance. Anyone else hear it??
 

merlodlliw

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Just caught some of an interview on Radio Wales with (I think) a Conservative AM who "seemed" to be saying that the problem with the Wrexham redoubling was NR seemingly dragging its feet and that the WG and the first minister were completely behind the scheme. Didn't manage to hear the interview completely.....I'll be interested to hear it again when I get the chance. Anyone else hear it??

The interview was with David Meddling Chairman of the First Ministers Scrutiny Committee who wrote to the First Minister on behalf of the Committee, I attended the meeting in Rhos Wrexham, when the First Minister blamed Network Rail for delays to the redoubling,it was ironic when we discovered Network Rail had written to all stakeholders the week previous(I put up the letter on RF),the NR letter said we are ready to redouble in October and await WG confirmation of funds, Every member of the First Ministers Scrutiny Committee which includes all parties, were concerned about the delay in redoubling and would take this forward,which they have.

link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23787107
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Wrexham - Saltney "problem" would be better addressed through a small section of redoubling at Saltney to form a waiting space off the North Wales mainline, together with updated signalling and relaying the track to achieve a higher top speed.

The original plan was far too much "bells and whistles", even though there would still been a significant section of single line remaining between Rossett and Wrexham due to bridge and ground stability issues.

A small section of double track, would not add one extra train to the line,when trains run late which they often do, a small section of double track becomes useless.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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And again you've used the same word: WANTS!
There is still no evidence of need being provided, either passenger statistics or operational need. Get those and your case becomes stronger.

It's semantics. Shrewsbury says it "wants" a through service to London, despite lack of passenger stats and operational need.

The regional economy "needs" improved services to business centres (not Cardiff, by the way), and it won't get them with a single track.
It's all in the Taith report: http://www.taith.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/130628-NEWITT-Report-FINAL-High-Res.pdf
See Page 14 (and covered in detail elsewhere):
Following double tracking, options to provide frequency enhancements between Chester and Wrexham.
 

swcovas

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The interview was with David Meddling Chairman of the First Ministers Scrutiny Committee who wrote to the First Minister on behalf of the Committee, I attended the meeting in Rhos Wrexham, when the First Minister blamed Network Rail for delays to the redoubling,it was ironic when we discovered Network Rail had written to all stakeholders the week previous(I put up the letter on RF),the NR letter said we are ready to redouble in October and await WG confirmation of funds, Every member of the First Ministers Scrutiny Committee which includes all parties, were concerned about the delay in redoubling and would take this forward,which they have.

.

Just had a quick listen again to the interview and Mr Meddling DOES say that NR "did seem to be the prime culprits in what's gone wrong". Sounds like a bit of buck passing/avoiding the issue situation to me.
 

merlodlliw

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That demonstrates demand for a frequent transport link between Wrexham and Chester, but not necessarily for a more frequent rail service along the entire line. And it could be argued that a 12-minute bus service actually removes the need for more frequent trains, particularly in view of the fact that both Wrexham and Chester railway stations are rather inconveniently-sited for the towns they serve.

the 12 minute bus service is useless if you carry luggage to go on holiday,you may argue Wrexham needs no more trains, I live here and there is need for extra rail services both Taith and the North East Wales task force, both set up by WG both also agree there is demand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just had a quick listen again to the interview and Mr Meddling DOES say that NR "did seem to be the prime culprits in what's gone wrong". Sounds like a bit of buck passing/avoiding the issue situation to me.

I did not hear the interview, but as Chairman of the Committee he can only comment on what the First Minister said at the meeting,it is buck passing,Mr Meddling is only too aware of the FOI requests from AMs as to where the £32M capital fund ring fenced for the redouble as gone to.
After the First Minister left the meeting, me and others questioned all the blame being put on Network Rail and the statement the day before from Edwina Hart re looking at the redouble .
At the meeting the AM for Vale Of Clwyd Ann Jones asked the First Minister," it seems North Wales is again suffering cuts, as the money for the Wrexham redouble been spent elsewhere" The first Minister quoted the statement from Edwina Hart, and added the Minister(Edwina Hart) will respond in September"
Ann Jones added as the North Wales member of this committee "I will not let this go away"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---







Heres the official WG press release.




PRESS RELEASE

Embargoed until 00.01, Thursday 22 August

Welsh Government must strengthen the economic infrastructure of north Wales – says National Assembly committee

Strengthening the infrastructure of Wales as a cohesive unit to enhance its economic competitiveness is imperative, according to a National Assembly for Wales committee.

The Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister has written to the First Minister about a series of major infrastructure issues affecting north Wales, including the upgrade of the Wrexham to Saltney Junction rail line. The Committee has called on the Welsh Government to show “leadership and clarity of purpose” in progressing the scheme after hearing it has been hit by significant delays.

The scheme, estimated at costing £36 million pounds, would double up the railway line between Wrexham and Chester providing increased capacity and opportunities for significant economic development.

At a meeting in public in Rhosllanerchrugog, near Wrexham last month, the Committee was told that there was a lack of Welsh Government “levers” over Network Rail (the organisation charged with maintaining and improving the UK rail network) to push the scheme forward.

In supporting efforts to secure devolution of further powers over rail infrastructure, the Committee called for progress on the Welsh Government’s negotiations with Network Rail and a clear timetable for when the work will take place.

“The Wrexham to Saltney Junction scheme promises significant benefits for the people of north Wales and its delay is disappointing,” said David Melding AM, Chair of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister.

“The Committee would like to see Ministers show leadership and clarity of purpose in bringing this scheme forward as soon as possible.”

Regarding major road infrastructure projects, the Committee called for further detail on implementation of a scheme to remove the current bottleneck at the A494 Aston Hill, citing the A494/A55 corridor as a vital gateway to Wales.

On the subject of major energy projects, the Committee heard of concerns about the impact on local communities.

A question submitted to the Committee by members of the public via Twitter asked what the Welsh Government was doing to ensure that communities receive some benefits from major infrastructure developments (for example through direct financial payments, support for wildlife projects or the ownership of community-based renewable energy schemes).

The Committee concluded that there needs to be a more rigorous and strategic approach taken across all forms of major infrastructure development and has called on the Welsh Government to set out its thinking and approach on this important issue.

“The question of local community benefits from major infrastructure projects came from members of the public who contacted the Committee via our Twitter hashtag #FMWQT,” said Mr Melding.

“The Committee was pleased to hear the First Minister respond positively to the idea of local communities benefitting directly and he mentioned the need to develop ‘broader thinking’ in this area and to use the new Planning Reform Bill to secure new arrangements.

“We would like to see the fruits of this new approach.”

The Committee makes 10 recommendations in a letter to the First Minister, including:

- How the First Minister proposes to develop the Welsh Government’s thinking and approach to ensuring that local communities receive direct benefits from all forms of major infrastructure developments, whether located in or affecting their areas.
- The need for the Welsh Government to show leadership and clarity of purpose in bringing forward the Wrexham to Saltney Junction scheme as soon as possible.
- When a scheme to remove the current bottleneck at the A494 Aston Hill will be implemented.
 
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headshot119

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The redoubling did provide the village of Gowerton with 95 extra services a week,its on the ATW website, Nat Rails operational requirements are exactly the same for redouble of the Wrexham line, to clear North Wales biggest pinch point. The demand is defiantly there for extra services to and from North Wales biggest town, The North Wales Task force report(WG Commissioned) backs this up. Currently Arriva Bus run a every 12 minute per hour service from Wrexham to Chester rail station which as been improved since June.
I consider redoubling the line is money better spent than WG buying Cardiff airport and providing what will be a full years subsidy of £1m to run buses to it from Cardiff, which of course will be of no benefit to anyone in the North, but thats my opinion.
Why do you mention Shrewsbury for better connections,when the majority use Chester with its four tocs for connections to the North West & North Wales

Improved in what sense? It's been a twelve minute frequency for while, but I can certainly remember it being a ten minute frequency in the past.

Yes the Sapphire buses are nice, but I don't really think they've done much in terms of frequency.
 

merlodlliw

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Improved in what sense? It's been a twelve minute frequency for while, but I can certainly remember it being a ten minute frequency in the past.

Yes the Sapphire buses are nice, but I don't really think they've done much in terms of frequency.

you have said it, the Sapphire buses increased comfort, I understand these same type buses rebuilt for Traws Cambria are now used on the Rhoose Airport 20 minute service to Cardiff.

Bob
 

Rhydgaled

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you have said it, the Sapphire buses increased comfort, I understand these same type buses rebuilt for Traws Cambria are now used on the Rhoose Airport 20 minute service to Cardiff.

Bob
The Arriva Saphire buses are double deckers and have nothing to do with TrawsCambria or TrawsCymru as far as I know (other than having similar facilities perhaps, coach seats and W-Fi?) The TrawsCymru vehicles on the T9 bus to Cardiff airport (bought for TC1 Aberystwyth - Carmarthen are TC4 Newtwon - Cardiff) and Optare Tempo single-deck vehicles.
 
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merlodlliw

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The Arriva Saphire buses are double deckers and have nothing to do with TrawsCambria or TrawsCymru as far as I know (other than having similar facilities perhaps, coach seats and W-Fi?) The TrawsCymru vehicles on the T9 bus to Cardiff airport (bought for TC1 Aberystwyth - Carmarthen and TC4 Newtwon - Cardiff) and Optare Tempo single-deck vehicles.

The Saphire buses used on the Wrexham/Chester Rail Station run are indeed double deckers, my point was the buses now used on the Rhoose/Cardiff run funded by WG were originally ordered by WG for use elsewhere.
I bow to your knowledge of type. The Saphire buses were rebuilt on Wrexham Industrial Estate.
 
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kieron

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Arriva bus runs a high frequency 'Saphire' double-decker between Wrexham and Chester, I think an increase in frequency between Shrewsbury and Chester (via Wrexham) is a reasonable desire.
5 buses an hour, and every single one of them goes through all the villages on the way. They're not an alternative to a train, whatever they are.
Running through to Manchester though I think is probably out, there's probably only the one Chester-Manchester path available for the Wales TOC to use.
There are a couple of extra trains for the peak to/from Manchester, so I suspect 2tph may be available all day.

The paths which are there now are unlikely to be the paths which are available when Manchester-Newton-le-Willows is electrified anyway.
 

Rhydgaled

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There are a couple of extra trains for the peak to/from Manchester, so I suspect 2tph may be available all day.

The paths which are there now are unlikely to be the paths which are available when Manchester-Newton-le-Willows is electrified anyway.
I assumed there were no spare paths, otherwise why would the north Wales - Manchester services have the very long turnround they do at Manchester? If there are spare paths, why not move the service to a different path in one direction to shorten that turnround, it might save a unit.
 

Rheilffordd

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I assumed there were no spare paths, otherwise why would the north Wales - Manchester services have the very long turnround they do at Manchester? If there are spare paths, why not move the service to a different path in one direction to shorten that turnround, it might save a unit.

Trains spend so long in the loop at Manchester because no paths / track access rights exist forwards to Manchester Airport, as was the original intention.
 

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Paths to Manchester Airport would be the problem. ATW have Track Access Rights with 3 trains a day working there and return. They are either early morning or a night when things are quieter
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Trains spend so long in the loop at Manchester because no paths / track access rights exist forwards to Manchester Airport, as was the original intention.

Even though NR say that it is more disruptive to use Mayfield Siding than to send the train on to the Airport, now there are more platforms there.

Currently there are only 3tph on the eastern part of the Chat Moss route, I suppose it will go to 5 or 6 after Phase 1 electrification.
Headways are supposed to be reduced with the speed upgrade next year.
 

Rhydgaled

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Trains spend so long in the loop at Manchester because no paths / track access rights exist forwards to Manchester Airport, as was the original intention.
So, since they can't go on to the airport, why don't they turn 'em around and head straight back to north Wales? They've known the can't get to the airport long enough to change the timetable surely.
 

Welshman

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ATW must have considered this, as it can be neither efficient nor economical use of stock or staff to have a unit laying-over for 50 minutes in every hour in Mayfield siding.

The problem with sending it back to North Wales, presuming there are paths, would be it would then require almost every other service pattern in North Wales to be adjusted. For the present x50 Manchester-Llandudno and x44 return creates a roughly half-hour service in both directions along the North Wales coast with services from/to Holyhead and Cardiff/Birmingham International. And to change the Holyhead-Birmingham pattern would have a knock-on effect on the Birmingham-Aberystwyth service, etc, etc.

I have sometimes thought it would be an idea were the service terminating in Piccadilly at x57 from Llandudno to do a short run to Chester, calling at all stations, departing Piccadilly around x15, arriving in Chester at xx15, returning to Manchester at around xx25, arriving back at xxx25 to form the next xxx50 to Llandudno.

Providing paths were available, this would give a half-hourly Manchester-Chester service, which seems to be needed, and incidentally connect with the present x23 service from Chester to Holyhead, which has originated in Birmingham or Cardiff, and reduce the down time in Manchester from 50 to approx 15 minutes - just enough time to run from Piccadilly to Mayfield siding to reverse, and return.

This would require extra units[and staff], of course, and this could be a problem as ATW seem to be using most of their 158s and 175s at present, judging from the occasional times they have to resort to a 150 on unsuitable services as Birmingham-Holyhead, Cardiff-Manchester or Manchester-Llandudno.

But it looks good from my comfortable chair this Sunday morning!
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I have sometimes thought it would be an idea were the service terminating in Piccadilly at x57 from Llandudno to do a short run to Chester, calling at all stations, departing Piccadilly around x15, arriving in Chester at xx15, returning to Manchester at around xx25, arriving back at xxx25 to form the next xxx50 to Llandudno.

That's pretty much how they get the peak extra in at the moment, although it does need an Up train running earlier to Manchester in mid-afternoon.
To work all day it would need 2 extra units.
It would also be an opportunity to skip a few stations (Helsby, Frodsham and Earlestown) on one of the services, improving journey times and turnrounds.

But there's no stock. And if there were I suspect Cambrian folk would be jumping up and down saying they were at the top of the queue...
 
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