Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[deltic08]

My neighbour was instrumental in bringing 141s to West Yorkshire. Being a bus man, he thought they were wonderful. His remit was to introduce a train on the Harrogate-Leeds line cheap enough to upgrade service frequency to 30 minutes compared to traditional DMUs.

I had been a regular commuter from Harrogate to Leeds since 1970 and was quite content with the ride and frequency at peak times. Journey time was reasonable as the 1720 Leeds-Harrogate stopped only at Horsforth and completed the journey in usually 29 minutes. This was most likely as it loaded to 6 cars, too long for some intermediate stations.

On introduction of 141s in 1984, regular commuters deserted in droves particularly First Class commuters as there was now no First Class. They went by Rover,Jaguar, Mercedes and BMW. The 1720 was now at best 4 car stopping at all stations. I reverted to car when a door I was standing near blew open as we passed over Arthington Viaduct at 60+mph one dark evening with nothing but air between me and the River Wharfe 80 feet below.

Introduction of 143/4 Pacers was no better in either seat comfort, ride quality or ear shattering squeels on the tight curves out of Leeds and either side of Harrogate.
I cannot agree Pacers are better than traditional DMUs.

 

[ed1971]

On one of my recent trips Wigan-Liverpool I got on a 150 which had "old-style" 2+3 seats (ie the original seating with new covers).
The seating was exactly the same as I remember the original 2+3 NSE 319s to be.
I don't know if they have all been refurbished yet, but if not it is possible the 319s will turn up in Liverpool and the public will not notice any difference from the 150s they are replacing (apart from the seat covers)...
From a passenger perspective the seats were too small/too low and with a very poor view.
Hopefully somebody is planning to improve them before they arrive in the north-west.
Dynamically, of course, they are in a different league to the 150s.

Hi,

Probably some commuters will not notice the difference. The 319s also have seats not aligned with windows, but the lack of a noisy Cummins engine under the floors and faster acceleration is a big step forward!

It will be interesting to see when the lines are electrified if some 319s will start to appear at Glossop and some 323s on Manchester to Liverpool services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why were designers enamoured with the idea of seats that do not line up with windows ?

 

[ed1971]

The seats on 150s, 319s etc do not line up with the windows because they were simply based on the standard MK3 carriage.

The Metro Cammell Class 151 that never went into volume production was much better in this respect.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The seats on 150s, 319s etc do not line up with the windows because they were simply based on the standard MK3 carriage.

The Metro Cammell Class 151 that never went into volume production was much better in this respect.

I used to have a strong view that trains designed at Derby were by those who never commuted on them (bar the odd ones who used the very local ones to Matloc and intermediate stations) - explaining the poor internal styling of the early 317's in particular. .........

(thought there was a half hearted design forum with Alan Williams who amended the second class 455 build "externally")

Commuters doing more than say 15 mins on a train do like to see the outside world - even know with a social media etc. Often their only chance in the eternal daily grind from home to and from work etc ....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'll concede that like many enthusiasts, I may have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to looking back at the 1st-gen DMUs. Indeed with all the very last 'heritage' units in traffic I believe the maintenance teams gave the last few a lot of TLC and made them seem better than they had for the previous 20 years! This was certainly the case with the Lymington 421s and 'Daisy' the green 3-car 101 that ran right up to the end in Manchester.

It'd be interesting to see a time-trial from Leeds to Manchester Vic between a 110 and a 142 though!

 

[Welshman]

I think that it is very much a case of horses for courses. The Class 116 DMUs in South Wales did keep time to 150 diagrams when the trailers were removed and they were much more comfortable than the Sprinters, better seats and ample leg room. On these services, high speed running was not a factor and they were ideally suited to the job. Mechanically, the Sprinters have been a success but, from a passenger's point of view, they are cramped and too many seats are situated next to a blank wall.

If the Sprinters had bodywork designed around passengers they would be excellent.

I could not agree more.
The Cl. 110 dmus on the Calder Valley line went like the wind when their centre cars were removed, leaving a 2-car set with both cars powered by 720hp Rolls-Royce engines.

The leg-room was adequate and most seats allowed good views out of the window, compared with the 150s and 155s often used on that line now.

 

[geoffk]

Will the power supply on the Chat Moss line be sufficient to allow its use as a diversionary route for Pendolinos, via Warrington BQ and Earlestown to both Liverpool and Manchester, avoiding the use of diesel "drags". Common sense says yes, but.......

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes it will, Network Rail have specifically engineered the OHLE to be able to cope with diversions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More wires are up:
- over the "short" gap near Ordsall Lane, the Up (eastbound) line now has a single wire (the return wire) - three more to go.
- over the "long" gap near Glazebury, the Down line now also has a single wire (the AT wire). No change on the Up (two wires, excluding catenary/contact wires), so five wires still to go up here overall.
So there are now wires over the entire length of Phase 1, just not quite enough to say it is "complete".

On the Wigan branch, the mast count is now up to 85 (50 on the Down (eastbound), 35 on the Up), all west of Pilkingtons.
Some of the gaps in the concrete bases are being filled in with tubular piles.
No change east of Bryn. Bryn Road bridge is still being rebuilt, and this marks the end of foundations on the Down.
There are about 12 mast bases east of there on the Up, but still nothing approaching Springs Branch.

I'm sceptical about the reported mast foundation on Platform 3 at Earlestown (the Liverpool-Warrington platform).
There is indeed a concrete base with 4 bolts protruding, but there is also a pipe for wiring in the middle of it.
My guess is that this is part of the resignalling work rather than electrification.
Meanwhile that side of Earlestown station is a bomb site with a lot of uncompleted trackwork and cable route stuff lying around.

West of Roby station, the long line of tree roots from the vegetation clearance has finally gone, and the solum looks to have been fully cleared and marked out afresh ready for construction of the new junction.

And Lime St Low Level is back.
There's not much to show for the 4-month closure.

 

[AndyLandy]

I'm sceptical about the reported mast foundation on Platform 3 at Earlestown (the Liverpool-Warrington platform).
There is indeed a concrete base with 4 bolts protruding, but there is also a pipe for wiring in the middle of it.
My guess is that this is part of the resignalling work rather than electrification.

Are we expecting the Warrington BQ to Earlestown link to be electrified. It looks like a pretty obvious infill, but I'm not sure how much use it would be other than a diversionary route. I certainly can't see anyone hurrying to wire from WBQ down to Ellesmere Port or Chester.

 

[WatcherZero]

Will the power supply on the Chat Moss line be sufficient to allow its use as a diversionary route for Pendolinos, via Warrington BQ and Earlestown to both Liverpool and Manchester, avoiding the use of diesel "drags". Common sense says yes, but.......

If I remember at the moment its using existing WCML grid connection, they are going to build a strengthened one and keep the existing as a backup and a new one in Manchester for Transpennine. They consider this adequate if the Lancashire traffic is mostly 319's and 350's however they are considering another connection for Blackpool if theres power hungry Pendolinos operating direct London services which would also increase the resilience of the depot there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are we expecting the Warrington BQ to Earlestown link to be electrified. It looks like a pretty obvious infill, but I'm not sure how much use it would be other than a diversionary route. I certainly can't see anyone hurrying to wire from WBQ down to Ellesmere Port or Chester.

It already is electrified - since 1974...
Electric trains can run Warrington BQ-Earlestown-Newton-le-Willows-Wigan NW, though little used all its electrified life.
Essentially it forms the WCML slow lines between Winwick Jn and Golborne Jn, although most freight uses the direct main line because of the junction conflicts, especially southbound.
The only new electric bit needed is Earlestown South to West Jns, a single line through platform 3, and the loop beyond.
That will allow through running Crewe-Warrington BQ-Earlestown-Liverpool from Dec 2014 (and to Manchester from Dec 2013).
I'm sure Virgin will be diverting Pendolinos this way when the direct routes are closed.
What is not so clear is if the local Liverpool-Warrington BQ service will be electrically worked or be diverted from Earlestown to Manchester.

 

[Bevan Price]

It already is electrified - since 1974...
Electric trains can run Warrington BQ-Earlestown-Newton-le-Willows-Wigan NW, though little used all its electrified life.
Essentially it forms the WCML slow lines between Winwick Jn and Golborne Jn, although most freight uses the direct main line because of the junction conflicts, especially southbound.
The only new electric bit needed is Earlestown South to West Jns, a single line through platform 3, and the loop beyond.
That will allow through running Crewe-Warrington BQ-Earlestown-Liverpool from Dec 2014 (and to Manchester from Dec 2013).
I'm sure Virgin will be diverting Pendolinos this way when the direct routes are closed.
What is not so clear is if the local Liverpool-Warrington BQ service will be electrically worked or be diverted from Earlestown to Manchester.

I don't think the plans include a Liverpool - Warrington BQ service after electrification. Loadings between Earlestown & Warrington are fairly light - partly because the Warrington - Liverpool services mostly leave Bank Quay only 3 minutes after the (North Wales) - Warrington - Earlestown - Manchester services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think the plans include a Liverpool - Warrington BQ service after electrification. Loadings between Earlestown & Warrington are fairly light - partly because the Warrington - Liverpool services mostly leave Bank Quay only 3 minutes after the (North Wales) - Warrington - Earlestown - Manchester services.

And instead it will precede the North Wales train by a few minutes into Manchester .
I've heard of these plans but nothing trustworthy about electrification timetables has yet appeared, other than the TPE Scotland plans based on new 350s.

 

[ed1971]

I'll concede that like many enthusiasts, I may have rose-tinted glasses on when it comes to looking back at the 1st-gen DMUs.

I believe the reason for that is because the first generation DMUs had a lot more character than the DMUs in service today.

The Class 108s were always my favourite first generation DMUs and still had modern looking interiors even when the last were withdrawn 20 years ago.

 

[DJH1971]

Looks like the rumours of TPE hiring a 350 from London Midland for driver training were true after all!

https://plus.google.com/+transpennineexpress/posts/Nrjv2G75ZPP

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks like the rumours of TPE hiring a 350 from London Midland for driver training were true after all!

https://plus.google.com/+transpennineexpress/posts/Nrjv2G75ZPP

It was reported in a thread from early in August, picture here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1541918&postcount=34

 

[507 001]

The electrification gang were out and about around Eccles at about midnight last night. They had a couple of cherry pickers so I assume they were finally putting the proper droppers in!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I believe the reason for that is because the first generation DMUs had a lot more character than the DMUs in service today.

The Class 108s were always my favourite first generation DMUs and still had modern looking interiors even when the last were withdrawn 20 years ago.

The only problem was you couldn't hear yourself speak! This was reinforced when we took a trip on the Wirksworth branch the other week!

 

[ed1971]

Very true, but a Leyland 680 engine coupled to a Wilson R14 epicyclic gearbox was 'music to the ears'!

 

[dysonsphere]

Its not that bad a match, pretty close pink stone just ones clean and the others been caked in dirt since 1829!

never let the facts get in the way of a bit of mud slinging

 

[AndyLandy]

never let the facts get in the way of a bit of mud slinging

I daresay a bit of literal mud-slinging would help matters here no end!

 

[HowardGWR]

I daresay a bit of literal mud-slinging would help matters here no end!

I believe coating in stale milk will bring on the green wildlife (mosses, lichens) but as for soot, surely they could have sand-blasted the existing sooty stone, as the resulting effect would have been stunning?

 

[Ploughman]

I believe coating in stale milk will bring on the green wildlife (mosses, lichens) but as for soot, surely they could have sand-blasted the existing sooty stone, as the resulting effect would have been stunning?

They tried that on "Grand Designs" once and at the revisit a year later still no growth.

 

[WatcherZero]

Think it was more than 3 years later in the Revisted series and still no growth! That said it being corrugated metal it could retard bacterial growth.

 

[Class377/5]

Rail is reporting that 3x 350/4 will be delivered by December.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is that by December Timetable change or by the end of December?

If its for the start of December then theyve beaten the more recent pessimistic forecasts that they would only have one by then. Previously the first delivery was pencilled in for something like December 2nd or 3rd.

 

[DJH1971]

Is that by December Timetable change or by the end of December?

If its for the start of December then theyve beaten the more recent pessimistic forecasts that they would only have one by then. Previously the first delivery was pencilled in for something like December 2nd or 3rd.

Would the trains have to go through a safety case as a new sub-class of 350 , or would there be no need with 350's already used by LM?

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont think so, the existing 350's have also run the line so should have been pre-checked for compatability. One issue could be length of commisioning, I understand Siemens will be doing a lot of commisioning work on their test track but TPE will still probably want to give them a good thrashing and check for snagging issues before formally accepting them.